kjh Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 2. The context argument coming from W2BTD is comical. On Twitter he tweeted the other day that Tanahashi had headlined eight Domes shows and seven of them showed growth. Now that may mean something, and shouldn't be dismissed, but independent of context that might lead you to believe all sorts of things that are false. It's arguments like that "contextual" one which lead to people assuming Tanahashi had sold out the Tokyo Dome multiple times and voting for him for the WON HoF on those grounds. The truth is that if you expand the context you will notice that Dome show attendance plummeting coincides very closely with the rise of Nakamura and Tanahashi to the top of the cards - consistent upward trajectory doesn't start to emerge until Okada shows up (note that I"m not arguing Okada is a bigger star than either of them, but I do think he was a needed catalyst for growth). The 2005 Dome show was a disaster, even though they announced an increased crowd of 46,000 fans. Meltzer wrote the following in the Observer a week after the event: "This year’s Toukon Festival Wrestling World 2005 drew the company’s smallest-ever Dome crowd, a heavily papered 25,000 (announced at a ridiculous 46,000), and only 10,000 paid, for the 14th annual event on the day in the Dome for what was until recent years, that country’s version of Wrestlemania. The show was said to be lifeless, with mostly average matches, and it felt like nothing special except the main event really delivered. Long-time New Japan fans left the building really sad to see just how far things had fallen. When the show started, the building was empty, causing people to think this was going to be a disaster of a major magnitude. By the third match, the place was half full. The worse part about this is when they realized they couldn’t sell tickets, they began giving them away en masse. Tickets moved far slower than for any New Japan event ever in its flagship big show building, due to no major outsiders on the show and a horrible line-up for such a big building. They ended up giving away so many tickets that there were actually no tickets available at the ticket office at the Dome, and the major outlets reported only a few locations still available. What happened is that, like WCW at the end, most of the people given free tickets didn’t even bother coming. It wasn’t quite TNA giving away 10,000 ticket vouchers to get 1,000 people into Nashville, but it was an apathy level the likes of which nothing the company had ever experienced for a Dome show." So Tanahashi is at best 6 for 8, without quibbling whether increases of 1,000-2,000 announced fans represents true growth, when we don't know the rounding and papering being done. 2009 was clearly drawn by outsiders (Misawa and Mutoh), rather than Tanahashi being hot as a draw. I actually think Sakuraba & Shibata as the undefeated invading shooters probably deserves more credit for the 2013 numbers than people give them today too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Factual question for those who might know: Why has wrestling been relegated to such awful time slots in Japan? I know that problem originated long before the live product declined in popularity. Is it due to a relative lack of channels? Is there simply no equivalent in Japan to a broad-platform cable network such as USA? Was wrestling initially shoved aside by more popular programming? I'm asking because the time slot problem is always treated as irrevocable. And I'm curious why that's the case. New Japan basically lost their prime-time Friday night spot in 1986. They were shunted around on Monday and Tuesday for a while before being moved to Saturday afternoon in 1988. That time slot wasn't popular with fans as the show was often preempted for golf. In 1994 it moved to a midnight slot and in 2004 was shortened to 30 minutes. New Japan was replaced on Friday nights by Music Station, a hugely popular music show that's still broadcast in the same time slot. If you want a neat piece of trivia, it was replaced on Mondays in 1987 by none other than Knight Rider. Most people in Japan only watch free-to-air terrestrial television. The major networks offer subscription based broadcast satellite channels that carry specialised content like American sports or television dramas. There are cable, satellite and internet TV providers, but most of the channels are privately owned and content gets scattered across all sorts of channels often leading to extra subscriptions on top of your basic package. If you like tennis for example, you've got to be subscribed to one channel to watch the ATP tour and another to watch the Grand Slams and the chances are neither are included in your basic package. I've had both satellite and internet TV in Japan but ended up getting rid of both. As Nintendo Logic mentioned, the pay TV penetration levels are extremely low in Japan. I don't think they've shown any significant growth in the time I've been here. NJPW has content spread out over Asahi's BS channels and a few other pay channels, but even on Asahi's BS channels the content airs in the dead of the night. Japanese people basically don't want to pay to watch television, are content with the variety shows and dramas that air during prime time, and only subscribe to pay channels if they have some sort of niche interest like American dramas or tennis or the NBA or professional wrestling. I assume the reason they lost their Friday night spot back in '86 is because ratings tanked after the shit hit the fan with everyone leaving. Both Inoki and Baba were forever battling with TV executives to keep their time slots throughout the latter half of the 80s and basically lost the battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I think the Sayama & Shinma books also had some influence in that as well because when the business got exposed in Japan that was a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brady Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 How about the theory, just as in the US, that less people care about wrestling these days and it's a dwindling audience every year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 How about the theory, just as in the US, that less people care about wrestling these days and it's a dwindling audience every year? If it was as simple as that, New Japan would have just continued the death spiral it was in four or five years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Todd Martin's been reviewing old Observers on Alvarez' show for a while now. They've gotten to the middle of 1985 now. Meltzer was on a major kick against everything WWF was doing at the time, and said one Fabulous Ones match in Memphis had more action than all of WWF combined all year. The two men agreed that Dave has changed his views on many things over time, but I'm wondering - when did Dave grow up and stop writing like an angry teenager? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Dave now has an episode of the AXS NJPW TV show as being by far the greatest single wrestling TV show of all-time, for those keeping track. These were also 1-hour wrestling TV shows, I'm just saying - 06/24/90 Misawa vs. Tsuruta ***** 06/24/90 Hansen vs. Gordy ***1/2 06/02/91 Tsuruta vs. Kobashi ****3/4 06/02/91 Misawa & Kawada vs. Gordy & Williams ***1/2 11/29/92 Gordy & Williams vs. Taue & Akiyama (Tag League) **** 11/29/92 Misawa & Kawada vs. Kobashi & Baba (Tag League) ****3/4 11/1/90 Benoit vs. Liger 11/1/90 Hase/Sasaki vs. Muto/Chono 11/1/90 Choshu vs. Hashimoto *Old man mode turned off* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stiva Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Dave now has an episode of the AXS NJPW TV show as being by far the greatest single wrestling TV show of all-time, for those keeping track. These were also 1-hour wrestling TV shows, I'm just saying - 06/24/90 Misawa vs. Tsuruta ***** 06/24/90 Hansen vs. Gordy ***1/2 06/02/91 Tsuruta vs. Kobashi ****3/4 06/02/91 Misawa & Kawada vs. Gordy & Williams ***1/2 11/29/92 Gordy & Williams vs. Taue & Akiyama (Tag League) **** 11/29/92 Misawa & Kawada vs. Kobashi & Baba (Tag League) ****3/4 11/1/90 Benoit vs. Liger 11/1/90 Hase/Sasaki vs. Muto/Chono 11/1/90 Choshu vs. Hashimoto *Old man mode turned off* I love Meltzer and all but he's so deeply into New Japan at this point that it's impossible to take his views on it seriously. It's great that he's digging on something so hard but his reviews of their shows could be ripped straight from a message board somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I think he was talking about the show as an overall presentation and not the match quality itself. Or at least that was my understanding. Remember, Dave considers the all-talking episode of Memphis television to build Lawler-Dundee in the Loser Leaves Town match to also be one of the best shows he has ever seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Yeah but still. We're talking Misawa-Jumbo at Budokan. Set the city on fire for a decade. 200 straight sellouts. One of the greatest matches ever. One of the biggest moments in the history of puro. Two massive legends. Marco Ranaulo doing some great commentary isn't better than that. Throw me a bone with the NJPW love Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Didn't Dave say something similar when Mauro Ranallo announced Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama for the Fight Network? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 By far the greatest PPV of all-time and the greatest TV show of all-time in the same week. We are literally living in the best time to be a wrestling fan in the history of the business existing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Its some pretty big hyperbole, but I think its great and am really happy that the guy can find that kind of passion for anything in wrestling no matter how over the top it may be. The thousands of hours he's spent watching, thinking, reading and writing about wrestling -- good and bad -- would sap the enthusiasm for many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Jumbo vs. Misawa setting Tokyo on fire for a decade is also hyperbole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Jumbo vs. Misawa setting Tokyo on fire for a decade is also hyperbole. Maybe a bit but they sold out every Budokan show that decade except a few in 95 and 96 according to Observer numbers while running them much more frequently than the 80s. It was a solid run. But yeah I was exaggerating a bit for comedic effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Dave & Bryan spend the first 20 minutes of today's audio show gushing over Lucha Underground and NJPW on AXS (episode 3 because Dave got a spoiler copy, when episode 1 hasn't even aired yet). Apparently ep 3 is the "best hour of wrestling television ever" and "Mauro and Barnett did the best commentary of a match ever". Dave overblows Tanahashi and Okada as is and Alvarez parrots him, so it's hard to take this remotely seriously. And the Aztec Rumble blows away Royal Rumbles and is already better than the 2015 RR and Dave learned all sorts of new things watching it I mean....come on. I like Lucha Underground and I like New Japan, but really? And they're already just burying RAW from the start, which I thought was a good show and an effective RR build. I'm sure they're about to nitpick it to death as I listen on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Dave & Bryan spend the first 20 minutes of today's audio show gushing over Lucha Underground and NJPW on AXS (episode 3 because Dave got a spoiler copy, when episode 1 hasn't even aired yet). Apparently ep 3 is the "best hour of wrestling television ever" and "Mauro and Barnett did the best commentary of a match ever". Dave overblows Tanahashi and Okada as is and Alvarez parrots him, so it's hard to take this remotely seriously. And the Aztec Rumble blows away Royal Rumbles and is already better than the 2015 RR and Dave learned all sorts of new things watching it I mean....come on. I like Lucha Underground and I like New Japan, but really? And they're already just burying RAW from the start, which I thought was a good show and an effective RR build. I'm sure they're about to nitpick it to death as I listen on I let my sub expire last spring and I considered re-upping this fall. I am really glad I did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I think people are being a little tough on Dave for something that is both consistent with his other opinions and that no one else has even watched yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'm listening to it too. The njpw stuff is expected but him saying lucha underground has a more talented roster than wwe caught me by surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 It's 1984 again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I just resubscribed. No regrets, but I also know what I'm getting with his NJPW coverage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I just resubscribed. No regrets, but I also know what I'm getting with his NJPW coverage With me, I have enough podcast. Don't care about news. So what does that leave? All I am missing out, in my world, is awards voting and hall of fame issue. I see lots of value, but it's not where I am as a fan right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayfabe1984 Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I dropped my subscription last fall, don't really miss it except for having access to back issues, the Karl Stern Show, and the archives of After Dark. I can go elsewhere for news and analysis. If there was an option for 3 or 4 bucks a month to just have access to podcasts and audio, I'd resubscribe. As of now though, can't see spending $11 a month on something I'll barely read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I just resubscribed. No regrets, but I also know what I'm getting with his NJPW coverage With me, I have enough podcast. Don't care about news. So what does that leave? All I am missing out, in my world, is awards voting and hall of fame issue. I see lots of value, but it's not where I am as a fan right now. Audio and historical pieces are the main reason I sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 The Lucha Rumble wasn't even as good as I thought it would be....it was really good but I was hoping for a grand slam.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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