Dave Meltzer stuff

[goodhelmet]

That doesn't change my point, Beast. He is either ignorant about what it means to be racist or making excuses.

[supremebve]

Yeah, the problem with what Meltzer said is that it is giving people an out for something that is clearly racist. Intent doesn't matter, you can't have a workplace where people are calling people of other ethnicities racial slurs. Saying that these people aren't racist is dumb, one because he doesn't know all of these people, and two, because what they are doing is clearly racist. You are singling out people of another ethnicity and calling them a derogatory term based on their race. At the very least it is dividing the workplace racially, which is wrong, and at the worst it is creating a hostile work environment. Just because they've been doing this for decades doesn't make it right, it was just as wrong on day one as it is now. The entire issue is that people like Meltzer think it is OK, because that is how it has always been. So essentially his point is, people were racist, but now they aren't because they're just doing what those old racists did. That is not backwards ass thinking at all.

[Beast]

Are we sure he's saying "It's OK"?

 

I get the impression from years of audio shows and stories that he despises racism, but understands the climate in which wrestlers said these things. Doesn't change the fact that he's making excuses, but I don't find it that unfathomable that he would given his historical perspective.

[supremebve]

Are we sure he's saying "It's OK"?

 

I get the impression from years of audio shows and stories that he despises racism, but understands the climate in which wrestlers said these things. Doesn't change the fact that he's making excuses, but I don't find it that unfathomable that he would given his historical perspective.

Him making excuses for them is enabling racism. My point isn't that Meltzer is racist, or that he in any way thinks that these people are racist. My point is despite what he thinks, what is going on is racist. I'm sure all of these people would claim to be completely against racism, but that doesn't mean that their actions are not racist. That is what I meant by "Intent doesn't matter." Just because you think it is OK to do something, or that you don't have malicious intent behind your actions, doesn't meant that your actions aren't racist. There is a book called, Racism without Racists, that basically chronicles all of the racist institutions that are perpetrated because people don't feel like they are racist for taking part in those practices. The problem is that those practices are racist, and people justifying these racist practices because they don't feel they are racist are just pushing that racism forward. The entire wrestling business could be completely and totally free of people who feel that they are racist, but if they are going around calling people racial slurs they are actively participating in racism. It is kind of like Bill Watts claiming he isn't a racist, because he made Junkyard Dog a big star, and put the title on Ron Simmons, when almost every other thing he's said about and/or done to black people has been racist as hell. Everyone claims that they aren't racist, but that all goes out of the window when they start actively engaging in racism. His point is oxymoronic, because he believes that these people can do racist things without actually being racist.

[Loss]

From the 2/20/88 WON recap thread:

-- A reader told Dave he was being offensive by using the term "abortion" to describe a bad match. Dave said this is an industry term, but there are other industry terms that are offensive to minorities that he doesn't use, so he'll stop using it going forward.

[C.S.]

Dave has talked about this before.

 

He has said the n-word was the official term in the business for black wrestlers at one point. This lasted until the '90s, if I'm remembering correctly. (Someone can jump in with more exact timelines - I'm going off of memory here.)

 

That's horrible, but it's not an example of Dave being racist. He's just reporting the situation, which is obviously fucked up.

[Dylan Waco]

A) We know that Meltzer adds so much more to wrestling journalism than his periodic faux-pas so let's cut out the "Ha ha that's why I ignore everything Meltzer says or writes".

 

B ) It was a dumb comment, but I bet if you asked any of those wrestlers if they were racist for using the term, they'd say absolutely not. It's easy from an outside perspective to acknowledge how inappropriate that word is, but if a bunch of them had used it all the time with no clear consequences in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, etc.., then let's not throw too much of a hissy fit over Meltzer's eye blinders on this subject.

 

I think it's a very good reason for someone to reject the writings of Dave wholesale even if I don't. People reject the totality of other careers and career output for things like this all the time.

 

As for second point, if I made the argument that within my subculture calling Dave Meltzer's wife a whore wasn't really sexist, but was merely a reflection of common use language within said group, my guess is no one would rush to defend it because it's transparently absurd.

[Grimmas]

 

A) We know that Meltzer adds so much more to wrestling journalism than his periodic faux-pas so let's cut out the "Ha ha that's why I ignore everything Meltzer says or writes".

 

B ) It was a dumb comment, but I bet if you asked any of those wrestlers if they were racist for using the term, they'd say absolutely not. It's easy from an outside perspective to acknowledge how inappropriate that word is, but if a bunch of them had used it all the time with no clear consequences in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, etc.., then let's not throw too much of a hissy fit over Meltzer's eye blinders on this subject.

 

I think it's a very good reason for someone to reject the writings of Dave wholesale even if I don't. People reject the totality of other careers and career output for things like this all the time.

 

As for second point, if I made the argument that within my subculture calling Dave Meltzer's wife a whore wasn't really sexist, but was merely a reflection of common use language within said group, my guess is no one would rush to defend it because it's transparently absurd.

 

Exactly. He should had reported it as it was, instead of adding qualifiers to excuse the issue.

[kjh]

He has said the n-word was the official term in the business for black wrestlers at one point. This lasted until the '90s, if I'm remembering correctly. (Someone can jump in with more exact timelines - I'm going off of memory here.)

 

That's horrible, but it's not an example of Dave being racist. He's just reporting the situation, which is obviously fucked up.

 

Veterans of the business (like Michael Hayes and Bruce Prichard) were still using the n-word pretty frequently around WWE writers well into the '00s.

 

The problem with how Dave covered this issue on the podcast is that he neglected to say how obviously fucked up it was. Instead, we got the verbal equivalent of a shrug of the shoulders.

[Fando]

Dave has talked about this before.

 

He has said the n-word was the official term in the business for black wrestlers at one point. This lasted until the '90s, if I'm remembering correctly. (Someone can jump in with more exact timelines - I'm going off of memory here.)

 

That's horrible, but it's not an example of Dave being racist. He's just reporting the situation, which is obviously fucked up.

Dunno if anyone thinks Dave is racist based off that, but it doesn't sound like he really thought that through before he brushed it off as just a "silly" term. On the show he said of course some people who used it were racist, but others weren't. That was odd. He also said it was used "for other ethnic groups" too. Should really be pressed to explain in more detail about this on a future show.

[C.S.]

Veterans of the business (like Michael Hayes and Bruce Prichard) were still using the n-word pretty frequently around WWE writers well into the '00s.

 

The problem with how Dave covered this issue on the podcast is that he neglected to say how obviously fucked up it was. Instead, we got the verbal equivalent of a shrug of the shoulders.

Dunno if anyone thinks Dave is racist based off that, but it doesn't sound like he really thought that through before he brushed it off as just a "silly" term. On the show he said of course some people who used it were racist, but others weren't. That was odd. He also said it was used "for other ethnic groups" too. Should really be pressed to explain in more detail about this on a future show.

Yeah, there is an obvious difference between Michael Hayes and Bruce Prichard casually using the n-word in everyday conversation and the same term being an official designation for black people in the wrestling business - similar to the way the term jobber might designate a person who loses the majority of his matches. It's still horrible and fucked up either way, but I can see why he'd argue that some people are racist and others aren't - as warped as that may sound. But yeah, Dave obviously needs to explain and clarify, and give more of a history of the term in wrestling, because it's obviously confusing and upsetting to a lot of his fans (and rightfully so).

[Grimmas]

 

Veterans of the business (like Michael Hayes and Bruce Prichard) were still using the n-word pretty frequently around WWE writers well into the '00s.

 

The problem with how Dave covered this issue on the podcast is that he neglected to say how obviously fucked up it was. Instead, we got the verbal equivalent of a shrug of the shoulders.

Dunno if anyone thinks Dave is racist based off that, but it doesn't sound like he really thought that through before he brushed it off as just a "silly" term. On the show he said of course some people who used it were racist, but others weren't. That was odd. He also said it was used "for other ethnic groups" too. Should really be pressed to explain in more detail about this on a future show.

Yeah, there is an obvious difference between Michael Hayes and Bruce Prichard casually using the n-word in everyday conversation and the same term being an official designation for black people in the wrestling business - similar to the way the term jobber might designate a person who loses the majority of his matches. It's still horrible and fucked up either way, but I can see why he'd argue that some people are racist and others aren't - as warped as that may sound.

 

There is no difference. It was the culture in wrestling, because the culture in wrestling was/is racist.

[Fando]

 

Veterans of the business (like Michael Hayes and Bruce Prichard) were still using the n-word pretty frequently around WWE writers well into the '00s.

 

The problem with how Dave covered this issue on the podcast is that he neglected to say how obviously fucked up it was. Instead, we got the verbal equivalent of a shrug of the shoulders.

Dunno if anyone thinks Dave is racist based off that, but it doesn't sound like he really thought that through before he brushed it off as just a "silly" term. On the show he said of course some people who used it were racist, but others weren't. That was odd. He also said it was used "for other ethnic groups" too. Should really be pressed to explain in more detail about this on a future show.

Yeah, there is an obvious difference between Michael Hayes and Bruce Prichard casually using the n-word in everyday conversation and the same term being an official designation for black people in the wrestling business - similar to the way the term jobber might designate a person who loses the majority of his matches. It's still horrible and fucked up either way, but I can see why he'd argue that some people are racist and others aren't - as warped as that may sound. But yeah, Dave obviously needs to explain and clarify, and give more of a history of the term in wrestling, because it's obviously confusing and upsetting to a lot of his fans (and rightfully so).

 

Maybe you could help me then, by explaining how using the word as "the official designation for black person" is not racist.

[C.S.]

There is no difference. It was the culture in wrestling, because the culture in wrestling was/is racist.

Never said otherwise, just explaining why Dave might have made that argument.

 

I think what he's trying to say is that there's a difference between Michael Hayes/Bruce Prichard/etc. and a random wrestler who uses the term for black people because it's an official designation that comes from the office. Both are wrong, both are racist, but Hayes/Prichard/etc. might have actual racist views while the random wrestler is just parroting a term the way he would another term like jobber. Of course, it's still wrong and racist, but let's face it, wrestlers in general aren't always the most educated, enlightened bunch.

 

Maybe you could help me then, by explaining how using the word as "the official designation for black person" is not racist.

See above. Of course it's racist.

[supremebve]

 

 

Veterans of the business (like Michael Hayes and Bruce Prichard) were still using the n-word pretty frequently around WWE writers well into the '00s.

 

The problem with how Dave covered this issue on the podcast is that he neglected to say how obviously fucked up it was. Instead, we got the verbal equivalent of a shrug of the shoulders.

Dunno if anyone thinks Dave is racist based off that, but it doesn't sound like he really thought that through before he brushed it off as just a "silly" term. On the show he said of course some people who used it were racist, but others weren't. That was odd. He also said it was used "for other ethnic groups" too. Should really be pressed to explain in more detail about this on a future show.

Yeah, there is an obvious difference between Michael Hayes and Bruce Prichard casually using the n-word in everyday conversation and the same term being an official designation for black people in the wrestling business - similar to the way the term jobber might designate a person who loses the majority of his matches. It's still horrible and fucked up either way, but I can see why he'd argue that some people are racist and others aren't - as warped as that may sound.

 

There is no difference. It was the culture in wrestling, because the culture in wrestling was/is racist.

 

This is the only correct answer. You can't separate the people who are racist from the people engaging in the racism. The actual racism is what matters. It doesn't matter if the institution is racist, if you decide to engage in that racism you are then a racist. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim that all this racism exist without people actually engaging in the racism. The culture of wrestling is racist, the people who keep those racist traditions going are by definition are racists. We don't have to pretend that they are not racist, because we like them and what they do. The only way this racism persists is because people keep being racist. You can't have racism without racists, you can't have racist institutions without racism. Dave's issue is that he thinks people can do racist things without being racist, which excuses people of their racism.

 

The reason this type of shit keeps going is because people get to be racists and claim to not be racist. No one ever holds them accountable for their bullshit, and then next thing we know I can't listen to "Real American" without feeling like I'm betraying myself. Calling someone a derogatory term because of their race is racism. Sure, we've all said or done something like this, but we were all wrong when we did it. Trying to justify it is not doing anyone any good. All of it is destructive, and none of it is excusable.

[kjh]

 

Veterans of the business (like Michael Hayes and Bruce Prichard) were still using the n-word pretty frequently around WWE writers well into the '00s.

 

The problem with how Dave covered this issue on the podcast is that he neglected to say how obviously fucked up it was. Instead, we got the verbal equivalent of a shrug of the shoulders.

Dunno if anyone thinks Dave is racist based off that, but it doesn't sound like he really thought that through before he brushed it off as just a "silly" term. On the show he said of course some people who used it were racist, but others weren't. That was odd. He also said it was used "for other ethnic groups" too. Should really be pressed to explain in more detail about this on a future show.

Yeah, there is an obvious difference between Michael Hayes and Bruce Prichard casually using the n-word in everyday conversation and the same term being an official designation for black people in the wrestling business - similar to the way the term jobber might designate a person who loses the majority of his matches. It's still horrible and fucked up either way, but I can see why he'd argue that some people are racist and others aren't - as warped as that may sound. But yeah, Dave obviously needs to explain and clarify, and give more of a history of the term in wrestling, because it's obviously confusing and upsetting to a lot of his fans (and rightfully so).

 

 

Hayes and Prichard weren't using the n-word in everyday conversation, they were using it in the workplace to describe black or ethnic colleagues, just like they did in the 80s and 90s, something that they were allowed to do unabated for a long time, likely until Mark Henry complained to WWE HR about it. How is this "obviously different"?

[C.S.]

Hayes and Prichard weren't using the n-word in everyday conversation, they were using it in the workplace to describe black or ethnic colleagues, just like they did in the 80s and 90s, something that they were allowed to do unabated for a long time, likely until Mark Henry complained to WWE HR about it. How is this "obviously different"?

Because it had long ceased being a "business" term by the time the incident with Mark Henry took place, which makes it "everyday conversation" by default. That's the difference. Still obviously racist either way, of course. It should have never been a term that was used in the first place, "official" or otherwise.

[Grimmas]

I also call bullshit on it being an official term used to describe black people. It was a racist term used to describe black people used in wrestling, because most of the wrestlers were racist.

[C.S.]

I also call bullshit on it being an official term used to describe black people. It was a racist term used to describe black people used in wrestling, because most of the wrestlers were racist.

I was just posting what Meltzer said once upon a time. Personally, I think it's even more racist and fucked up, not less, if the n-word was in fact an official business term in wrestling. That blew my mind the first time I heard it. It's so shocking and appalling, and it shows how backward and stunted wrestling is compared to the rest of society.

[sek69]

I also call bullshit on it being an official term used to describe black people. It was a racist term used to describe black people used in wrestling, because most of the wrestlers were racist.

 

 

Can't it be both? I'm sure it was the "official" term to describe black people in wrestling at that point in time *and* it was a racist term because most of the people who were responsible for setting the language of the business were racists.

 

Also I don't think Dave is as much condoning the use of it as much as it's similar to how he's kind of thrown his hands up at drug use in the business. He seems to have the same "it is what it is" feeling towards both.

[Beast]

 

I also call bullshit on it being an official term used to describe black people. It was a racist term used to describe black people used in wrestling, because most of the wrestlers were racist.

 

 

Can't it be both? I'm sure it was the "official" term to describe black people in wrestling at that point in time *and* it was a racist term because most of the people who were responsible for setting the language of the business were racists.

 

Also I don't think Dave is as much condoning the use of it as much as it's similar to how he's kind of thrown his hands up at drug use in the business. He seems to have the same "it is what it is" feeling towards both.

 

 

Agreed with this. If anyone is so taken aback by Dave's view on it, please e-mail him for the radio show as I'd honestly love to hear him expand on his view.

[supremebve]

 

 

I also call bullshit on it being an official term used to describe black people. It was a racist term used to describe black people used in wrestling, because most of the wrestlers were racist.

 

 

Can't it be both? I'm sure it was the "official" term to describe black people in wrestling at that point in time *and* it was a racist term because most of the people who were responsible for setting the language of the business were racists.

 

Also I don't think Dave is as much condoning the use of it as much as it's similar to how he's kind of thrown his hands up at drug use in the business. He seems to have the same "it is what it is" feeling towards both.

 

 

Agreed with this. If anyone is so taken aback by Dave's view on it, please e-mail him for the radio show as I'd honestly love to hear him expand on his view.

 

It could be both, but did they call all of the black wrestlers that to their face? Because if it is the "official" term, there wouldn't be an issue right? I'm willing to bet that wasn't the case, so what the hell are we talking about.

[sek69]

They probably did call them that to their face, but black wrestlers really weren't in the position professionally or socially in those days. That's kind of how racism works.

[kjh]

I also call bullshit on it being an official term used to describe black people. It was a racist term used to describe black people used in wrestling, because most of the wrestlers were racist.

 

It's worth noting that George "The Animal" Steele called up Wrestling Observer Live to claim that he'd never heard the term whilst working in wrestling not too long ago. Now, he could have been lying because he is a wrestler, after all, but he primarily worked in the Northeast, which if he was being honest suggests that at least in the New York office it wasn't part of the vernacular of the business.

[Beast]

I would be more shocked if the McMahon's did use it. Interesting information there.