Dave Meltzer stuff

[Slasher]

I don't think Dave was necessarily making excuses although I can see why people would take it as such. Some people, myself included sometimes, have a tendency to run in to give an oral history of why something is a certain way or why it worked or not a certain way. It doesn't necessarily reflect a personal belief as it is attempting to humanize some elements that seems unsavory at first glance. But yeah sometimes it is wrong to take that approach as I know very well, because it can end up putting yourself in the same box as the offenders.

[Wade Garrett]

I think this Dave Meltzer stuff thread and threads like it should be taken to the trash. Because that's what they are/become is trash.

 

What makes this (old wrestlingclassics/km stuff) place great is the discussions and sharing of opinions about the actual pro wrestling matches and wrestlers.

 

Not behind the curtain bullshit.

[goc]

I think this Dave Meltzer stuff thread and threads like it should be taken to the trash. Because that's what they are/become is trash.

 

What makes this (old wrestlingclassics/km stuff) place great is the discussions and sharing of opinions about the actual pro wrestling matches and wrestlers.

 

Not behind the curtain bullshit.

Agreeing with this 100%. This place is much better when it sticks hard to the "pro wrestling only" mantra.

[Childs]

It's really not helpful to tell people their discussion of a serious issue in wrestling culture is "trash." If you prefer other parts of the board, great. Enjoy those. But no need to interject yourself in a perfectly fair conversation and shit on it.

[funkdoc]

 

I also call bullshit on it being an official term used to describe black people. It was a racist term used to describe black people used in wrestling, because most of the wrestlers were racist.

 

It's worth noting that George "The Animal" Steele called up Wrestling Observer Live to claim that he'd never heard the term whilst working in wrestling not too long ago. Now, he could have been lying because he is a wrestler, after all, but he primarily worked in the Northeast, which if he was being honest suggests that at least in the New York office it wasn't part of the vernacular of the business.

 

 

this actually reminds me of a study i read about a while back that found racist sentiment to be least common in areas that don't have many people of color. the impression i get is that the southern territories had a far higher concentration of black wrestlers (and particularly black main-eventers, who would be the most threatening to white people) than new york did during that time. if that's the case, that could be part of the explanation.

 

of course, the word also has much less of a general history of casual use on the east coast than in the south, which is also in some part a function of the above phenomenon.

[Jingus]

Hayes and Prichard weren't using the n-word in everyday conversation, they were using it in the workplace to describe black or ethnic colleagues, just like they did in the 80s and 90s, something that they were allowed to do unabated for a long time, likely until Mark Henry complained to WWE HR about it. How is this "obviously different"?

How often did they say the word in front of a TV camera? Zero times, right? They knew damn well that the word was considered unacceptable by general society. They only said it when they knew could get away with it, like a kid who will curse in front of the babysitter but not in front of the parents.

[kjh]

 

Hayes and Prichard weren't using the n-word in everyday conversation, they were using it in the workplace to describe black or ethnic colleagues, just like they did in the 80s and 90s, something that they were allowed to do unabated for a long time, likely until Mark Henry complained to WWE HR about it. How is this "obviously different"?

How often did they say the word in front of a TV camera? Zero times, right? They knew damn well that the word was considered unacceptable by general society. They only said it when they knew could get away with it, like a kid who will curse in front of the babysitter but not in front of the parents.

 

 

The same could be said of all these "non-racists" who rationalised to Dave Meltzer that the slur was "the business term" for African Americans, which is my point. They only used the word around Dave because he let them get away with it, despite it making him feel uncomfortable.

[C.S.]

Bret Hart's thoughts:

"I can say that, through my experience, that a vast majority, of course not all of them, but a vast majority of the white, Southern wrestlers tend to be a little bit racial all the time, and the N-word was frequently used by a lot of wrestlers in the dressing room when there was a black guy not around, kinda thing. And being a Canadian, I found that really difficult, I didn't see eye-to-eye with that kind of stuff and never felt like that, and I've never been in that kind of mindset, but for Hulk Hogan to make the comments that he made that is something if you had a camera like that in most of the dressing rooms with a lot of the Southern wrestlers from Florida, Tennessee, Mississippi, even Texas, you get a lot of that kind of slant on things. And I'm kinda glad he got busted for that reason, that times have changed, and y'know, you have to answer for that stuff, and he's answering for it. He's probably glad that Roddy Piper passed away, because he took all the edge off all that."

 

He was referring to Hogan, not Meltzer, but I think it's still relevant in light of the recent discussion.

http://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe/2015/9/3/9257411/bret-hart-hulk-hogan-return-wwe-n-word-used-locker-rooms

[jdw]

I think this Dave Meltzer stuff thread and threads like it should be taken to the trash. Because that's what they are/become is trash.

 

What makes this (old wrestlingclassics/km stuff) place great is the discussions and sharing of opinions about the actual pro wrestling matches and wrestlers.

 

Not behind the curtain bullshit.

 

This thread had 270 pages before you joined the site, and that's not counting the prior thread that went on for quite some pages before that famous Resident Evil discussion got it locked. The posters in this thread have included both of the owners of the site, and all of the mods. We've had Dave supporters in the thread(s), people like to smack Dave around, and people who are in the middle. The current tangent about Dave's view on the n-bomb in wrestling was started by one of the owners.

 

The thread go back close to 8 years, and touch on a wide variety of issues. Some of silly, some of it minor, some of it making us bang our heads against the wall. Some of it has been quite interesting, with lots of interesting comments by posters coming in a variety of different directions. Frankly, it's not close to being as critical of Dave's work as it could be if people really wanted to pick him apart like we pick apart matches.

 

So...

 

On the whole, it's been a perfectly fine thread given 6000+ posts.

[Wade Garrett]

Thanks for the lesson John. It wasn't meant to insult anyone. Just an opinion. Opinions are allowed? Right?

 

Sorry if I insulted anyone or opinions.

[Sidebottom]

Just had a thought: Shawn and HHH have been linked at Wrestlemania since WM26...

 

HHH was part of the build to Michaels match at 26

Michaels part of the build to HHH's match at 27

Michaels ref HHH's match at 28 and cornered him at 29.

Slightly loose: but Shawn was worked into the whole AUthority vs DB storyline that culminated at 30.

Shawn interfered in HHH's 31 match.

[Wade Garrett]

Maybe they will blow it off at WM ? . I think Trips will work Shawn an a WM in the next three years. Shawn will work another match. Against Trips.

[Grimmas]

Maybe they will blow it off at WM ? . I think Trips will work Shawn an a WM in the next three years. Shawn will work another match. Against Trips.

You think that or you hope that?

 

I see no indication that there is even a small possibility that that happens.

[Wade Garrett]

Hell no Grimmas. I'm being a smartass.

[Grimmas]

Hell no Grimmas. I'm being a smartass.

It's not working.

[Slasher]

I think Shawn is very happy with having Undertaker end his career. He went out like a valiant fallen warrior for the greater good. I would be legitimately surprised if he ever wrestled another match. It probably would have to take being an once in a lifetime dream match or an once in a lifetime storyline building up to it. And I'm not even convinced that would do the trick.

[C.S.]

If Shawn didn't come back to face Bryan at his hottest, I don't see him ever coming back for anything else.

[Slasher]

If Shawn didn't come back to face Bryan at his hottest, I don't see him ever coming back for anything else.

Well not necessarily. Yes it would have been a dream match with tons of backstory to add in the build but honestly I think Shawn didn't really want to play a heel at all at this point in his life. He is a retired legend and turning heel for the sake of the storyline for a match that wasn't really all that important to the big picture of WWE storylines would be a waste of the goodwill he built up. Even when he superkicked Bryan in the cell, it was done in a way where he could ultimately still be Shawn the babyface, "Listen here, you attacked my best friend! I couldn't not do anything" is a stance that people could relate to even if they didn't like it. He did have sort of a heelish slant the next night when he called Bryan a maggot but that was after he legitimately tried to extend an olive branch to Bryan and Bryan basically pissed all over it. Then Bryan sent Shawn packing. That was all the angle needed to close. For Shawn to further it, he would have to play heel and he wasn't going to do that.

[Loss]

Shawn said he'd have to be asked to do something unprecedented to return, and teacher vs student was old hat. Perhaps he'll return for a selfie stick match against Tyler Breeze. First person to climb the ladder and snap a selfie wins.

[Jingus]

Everyone who knows Shawn says he's really happy being retired and has absolutely zero desire to ever lace up his boots again. A couple times per year he'll show up to superkick someone or get beaten down by a new monster heel, and I think that both scratches the in-ring itch and reminds him of why he retired in the first place. Plus, what else is left for him to achieve? He did everything in his eight-year post-comeback victory lap, including a match against Vince at Wrestlemania (which is more rare than you first think; except for Shane and Hogan, HBK is the only guy to be in that super-exclusive club). His retirement angle and matches were handled beautifully, exactly how any wrestler would dream of going out (in the main event of the biggest show in the world, against the most respected wrestler in the country). He has no more lands to conquer. He's good.

[Strummer]

I think we went over this before but Shawn putting over Bryan in that segment on Raw in Oct. 2013 was Shawn's idea. Bryan was originally not scripted to get any revenge before Shawn spoke up and said "fuck that" and basically volunteered to get put in the Yes lock. He didn't want to do a match but he made sure Bryan got over on him at least to a small degree

[kjh]

I think if Shawn is coming back for one last match, it would be for a bigger name than Daniel Bryan. But I also think he's content with not wrestling again, if that offer never comes.

[pantherwagner]

He did everything in his eight-year post-comeback victory lap, including a match against Vince at Wrestlemania (which is more rare than you first think; except for Shane and Hogan, HBK is the only guy to be in that super-exclusive club).

 

There's Bret Hart too.

 

Shawn has often mentioned that he sometimes doesn't even want to do Raw because he gets home too late. There's a clear difference in attitude between him and, say, Ric Flair.

[Slasher]

Everyone who knows Shawn says he's really happy being retired and has absolutely zero desire to ever lace up his boots again. A couple times per year he'll show up to superkick someone or get beaten down by a new monster heel, and I think that both scratches the in-ring itch and reminds him of why he retired in the first place. Plus, what else is left for him to achieve? He did everything in his eight-year post-comeback victory lap, including a match against Vince at Wrestlemania (which is more rare than you first think; except for Shane and Hogan, HBK is the only guy to be in that super-exclusive club). His retirement angle and matches were handled beautifully, exactly how any wrestler would dream of going out (in the main event of the biggest show in the world, against the most respected wrestler in the country). He has no more lands to conquer. He's good.

Bret also had a "match" with Vince at Wrestlemania but your point stands.

 

Also with the thing about Shawn only returning for something new or different, I want to see him have a Freaky Friday match where he wrestles exactly as his opponent whoever it is would wrestle and vice versa. That idea would amuse me.

[Jingus]

I forgot about the Bret "match", but yeah, still, that's the smallest of clubs.

 

I think if Shawn is coming back for one last match, it would be for a bigger name than Daniel Bryan.

Daniel Bryan is a pretty huge name at this point in his career. And besides, the important connection here is that Shawn TRAINED Bryan in the first place. I can't remember a single other example of one Wrestlemania main eventer having trained another, so that would be a pretty unique story.