Dave Meltzer stuff

[Loss]

He's also said that jocks making anti-gay jokes in a locker room setting doesn't make them homophobic. It's a mental block.

[MoS]

He's also said that jocks making anti-gay jokes in a locker room setting doesn't make them homophobic. It's a mental block.

 

See, that is something I just do not understand. A bunch of oh-so-masculine-and-macho jocks dissing gay people in a casual environment is literally the embodiment of homophobia. Same with wrestlers using the n-word. Words can never be divested from their context or their historical use. When I was in Alabama for my law school semester exchange program, there was this charming dude who kept on calling me "Paki". His roommate tried to justify it by saying that he was not a xenophobe; he just did not know the right "PC" word for Indians. It makes no sense.

[Grimmas]

Why does anybody still listen to Dave? Between this and his horrible match opinions is it just for backstage news? The occasional history piece?

[Loss]

Because when he's on, he's on. And he's on about 90% of the time.

[Grimmas]

Because when he's on, he's on. And he's on about 90% of the time.

Fair enough.

[MJH]

Whilst I agree with you guys, if it's a word you grew up with, sometimes it just sticks.

 

My best friend when I was a kid was mixed-race. Everyone, himself included, referred to him as 'half-caste'. It wasn't until I was in high school and we were studying a Benjamin Zephaniah poem (I think it was one of his) that I had any clue whatsoever that 'half-caste' was in any way derogative.

 

Or, nobody would say 'negro' now but for my parents' generation it was the politically-correct term. Ditto 'coloured'. And like everybody else I was using 'fag', 'gay', 'homo' etc as an insult long before I had any idea what homosexuality was. I hear 'retarded' thrown around casually all the time, 'mentally-handicapped' was deemed acceptable (ish?) until fairly recently, and even the concept of rape has evolved into having sex with someone 'too intoxicated to consent' even if the girl is as forward as you, and I'm sure we've all had shags when absolutely wasted and don't think of ourselves as 'rapists'... and I'm pretty sure I've heard 'midget' used about Torito.

 

Basically, and speaking only for myself, I'll judge someone's 'racist/homophobic/sexist-etc quota' differently if they're 16 to if they're 86, these 'lexical changes' or whatever you want to call them don't happen over night and the older someone is, the longer a word has been entrenched, well, it becomes more difficult to change.

[supremebve]

Whilst I agree with you guys, if it's a word you grew up with, sometimes it just sticks.

 

My best friend when I was a kid was mixed-race. Everyone, himself included, referred to him as 'half-caste'. It wasn't until I was in high school and we were studying a Benjamin Zephaniah poem (I think it was one of his) that I had any clue whatsoever that 'half-caste' was in any way derogative.

 

Or, nobody would say 'negro' now but for my parents' generation it was the politically-correct term. Ditto 'coloured'. And like everybody else I was using 'fag', 'gay', 'homo' etc as an insult long before I had any idea what homosexuality was. I hear 'retarded' thrown around casually all the time, 'mentally-handicapped' was deemed acceptable (ish?) until fairly recently, and even the concept of rape has evolved into having sex with someone 'too intoxicated to consent' even if the girl is as forward as you, and I'm sure we've all had shags when absolutely wasted and don't think of ourselves as 'rapists'... and I'm pretty sure I've heard 'midget' used about Torito.

 

Basically, and speaking only for myself, I'll judge someone's 'racist/homophobic/sexist-etc quota' differently if they're 16 to if they're 86, these 'lexical changes' or whatever you want to call them don't happen over night and the older someone is, the longer a word has been entrenched, well, it becomes more difficult to change.

Except that doesn't make it any less racist. Just because a person's racism was accepted, doesn't mean that they weren't being racist. Slavery was legal and acceptable for hundreds of years, but it was also really fucking racist. Just because someone grew up racist, and did a bunch of racist shit, when racism was a more socially acceptable doesn't excuse them from being a racist. Sure if someone who has been raised in a more tolerant time makes us think worse than the people who were raised in the less tolerant time, but their social crimes are exactly the same. One of the reasons that racism, sexism, and homophobia won't go away is because people always make excuses why someone's prejudice is acceptable. If we treated it all of it the same for everyone we'd probably be better off, but instead we pick and choose who we want to give an out.

[Loss]

I enjoy this discussion and I absolutely think some really intelligent points are being made. I just want to err on the side of caution, however, and say Pro Wrestling Only. No one has done anything wrong. It's just that I could see it getting heated. Thanks for understanding.

[Ready_Willing_Gable]

Haha, I vividly remember that Benjamin Zephaniah poem at school too.

 

U mean Tchaikovsky
sit down at dah piano
an mix a black key
wid a white key
is a half-caste symphony???????

[Parties]

Per Loss' request, I'll try to tread lightly here.

 

Look at the cognitive dissonance (if not outright conscious lying) on display in the Hogan debacle right now. He goes on GMA to whimper and beg for his career back and to tell people that he's not a racist. In response to a video in which he says, verbatim, "I am a racist."

 

If the guy who drops N-bombs as insults to the man of color who he fears is sleeping with his daughter (while, again, proudly declaring himself a racist) can rationalize all that and tell himself that there's no hatred there, or that this can all be brushed under the rug as "the way I was raised", it tells you something about how depraved the racial climate is in American life. It's not just that we have grave problems: it's that so many people publicly distort and conceal the vile things that they sincerely believe, if only because they know they're supposed to. No one self-identifies as a villain. Most people know that racism is wrong, even if they can only recognize it as being branded "wrong" culturally. But when we deny our own culpability in such problems, or (as I hear so many people doing of late) deem "political correctness" the real obstacle, you get to where we're currently at. Consider how much of Trump's recent support is predicated on the idea that he's "unafraid to say what he really thinks", "doesn't apologize", and "fights back against political correctness". We're all smart enough to know what "political correctness" really means in that context. You end up with people who still firmly believe in such prejudices, while feeling as though they "aren't allowed" to express what they consider true. You also end up with a great Brian Cage gimmick. (Look Loss, I tied it into wrestling at the end!)

 

Meltzer's response is that of many, many people, since time eternal: I can recognize that something is immoral until my friend does it, at which point I will justify the matter with lame pretext until kingdom come. I can only imagine the language workers used with him on those infamous calls where guys would call him drunk at 3AM to gossip and gripe about their co-workers.

[supremebve]

It really doesn't help that Hulk Hogan may be the most full of shit person of my lifetime. The fact that he's told the WrestleMania III story about him slamming Andre approximately 51,816,518,416,519,856,156 times and all of them have been a different story makes me skeptical about everything else he says. I'm willing to bet that he wasn't greeting anyone in his neighborhood with a, "What's up my N----" during his childhood. He grew up in a time where that was not only unacceptable for a white person, it wasn't really all that popular between black people. He expects people to believe him, when everything he says is unbelievable. Even if that was believable, we weren't talking about him calling his friend that as a sign of solidarity, we're talking about him calling the person who is dating his daughter a racial slur. I forget where I heard it, but it was someone talking about Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin. The gist of the story was that Hulk Hogan was always working, even in his personal life, but Steve Austin was never working, even in his professional life. Steve Austin, for all his flaws, was someone who found it easier to be himself than a character. Hogan on the other hand made up Hulk Hogan, so he didn't ever have to be Terry Bollea. Terry Bollea seems to be an asshole, a liar, and a racist, and I think enough of us realize that not to totally forgive Hulk Hogan.

[jushin muta liger]

From what Meltzer said, this only gives more truth to the story that Teddy Long said about Flair calling him the n word since Meltzer and Flair are buddies.

 

If it is truly part of the wrestling business, then a lot of black wrestlers are going to have to explain themselves on how this keeps going. There's been guys like Bad News Allen who didn't tolerate stuff like that but there's a lot who did which is a damn shame.

[jdw]

On today's WOL, Dave is sticking with his assertion that people who used the N word in wrestling were not racist. It was just part of the vernacular. Fucking hell.

 

"You only used that word if you were racist or you were in wrestling. In wrestling it was a term that was used by people that were not necessarily racist, it was a wrestling term.... which doomed WCW in court."

 

He goes on a bit more but he clearly can't wrap his head around the fact that these people were indeed racist.

 

 

He compared it to wrestlers using the term kayfabe too. So strange.

 

 

He's also said that jocks making anti-gay jokes in a locker room setting doesn't make them homophobic. It's a mental block.

 

This all makes my head hurt. Dave has always had odd blinders on.

[fakeplastictrees]

Hogan is being a carny. He is not sorry and anyone buying what he is saying is a complete mark. At the end of the day the guy flat out said "I guess I am a racist" or something to that effect. This wasn't a case of Hogan having one-too-many drinks, being super stressed out, and just saying a ton of crazy things in a row (one of which was racist). This was a situation of a calm-cool-and collected Hogan sitting down in the (assumed) privacy of his (buddy's) bedroom having a one-on-one conversation. He did the same thing when talking with Nick in jail. Hogan assumed it would never get out and see the light of day when he said he wouldn't want to come back to earth as a black man.

 

Oh but its just a word!? A word so interwined with the thinking and application of institutional racism in the criminal justice, housing, health, and education systems which have impacted millions of African Americans. I know black and white people who use the term with an 'a' at the end (I don't use it at all), and they are NEVER going on a racist rant or saying things like Hogan said to his son. Its night and day. You want to keep this wrestling related?

 

Okay...serious question.

 

How can people mock Hogan (when he is out-of-character) telling his tall tales about his battles with Andre The Giant, flat out making up stories about Warrior (that never happened), etc. , while at the same time believing he is NOW telling the truth? This guy is a carny and one of the greatest ones of all time. He has been a master politician for over 30 years in the wrestling world. Why are people buying int his sincerity NOW?

 

Another question...

 

How the hell are people trying to pretend this term is 'wrestling' related. That is such bullshit. When I was first learning wrestling terms for a report on the history of pro wrestling back in middle school I never came across this word. And I really hope that in 2015 we haven't all just thrown our hands up and said 'fuck it!' its all pro wrestling anyways. The racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. DOESN'T have to be pro wrestling and while we do expect it (because we are realistic and only going off the track records of those in charge), we shouldn't be excusing it and brushing it off as something that is just done in the business. There is no way Dave or anyone can sit down with a straight face and explain how that or any other negative term is 'just pro wrestling'. Dave has officially JTTS with me and its taken some time. MMA understands pro wrestling better than pro wrestling and now I guess the KKK and every other hate group in the world understand pro wrestling better than pro wrestling because before The Golddust Trio- there were negative words and actions floating around for centuries, but I guess that these hate groups are just good workers and understand the business of pro wrestling better than Bill Watts or some bullshit like that...

[kjh]

On today's WOL, Dave is sticking with his assertion that people who used the N word in wrestling were not racist. It was just part of the vernacular. Fucking hell.

 

"You only used that word if you were racist or you were in wrestling. In wrestling it was a term that was used by people that were not necessarily racist, it was a wrestling term.... which doomed WCW in court."

 

He goes on a bit more but he clearly can't wrap his head around the fact that these people were indeed racist.

 

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who felt Dave came across badly here. Even if you take Dave's word that at least some of these people didn't hold racist beliefs, then they were cowards who started slinging racial slurs around like everyone else did to fit in with the racist culture within the business. Neither reflects well on the people involved.

[Coffey]

I'm sure we've all had shags when absolutely wasted.

 

Nope, definitely not.

 

On topic, honestly, Dave just comes off as very ignorant. The n-word being defined by him as being used by wrestlers is the epitome of that. Either he's totally out of touch or completely in denial. One of the two.

 

[Coffey]

"You only used that word if you were racist or you were in wrestling. In wrestling it was a term that was used by people that were not necessarily racist, it was a wrestling term.... which doomed WCW in court."

This genuinely has me upset & angry, by the way. Really disappointed with Dave Meltzer here. Unbelievable. Just completely, totally, head-shakingly unbelievable.

[goodhelmet]

The only two possible takeaways are that Meltzer really is ignorant and doesn't understand racism or he is making excuses for his racist friends and idols.

[Dooley]

On today's WOL, Dave is sticking with his assertion that people who used the N word in wrestling were not racist. It was just part of the vernacular. Fucking hell.

 

"You only used that word if you were racist or you were in wrestling. In wrestling it was a term that was used by people that were not necessarily racist, it was a wrestling term.... which doomed WCW in court."

 

He goes on a bit more but he clearly can't wrap his head around the fact that these people were indeed racist.

 

what in the everloving fuck.

[jushin muta liger]

The only two possible takeaways are that Meltzer really is ignorant and doesn't understand racism or he is making excuses for his racist friends and idols.

I'll take excuses for 500.

 

Meltzer is too smart for him to be that ignorant about that word.

[Eduardo]

I actually think it's a mix of both those things. Meltzer has shown to be pretty ignorant about race (and other issues) in the past, and has also shown to make excuses for his friends as well.

 

Listening to that discussion was so embarrassing and awful. Not surprised at all that Alvarez didn't interject to point out how absurd Meltzer was sounding.

[Badlittlekitten]

 

 

Whilst I agree with you guys, if it's a word you grew up with, sometimes it just sticks.

 

My best friend when I was a kid was mixed-race. Everyone, himself included, referred to him as 'half-caste'. It wasn't until I was in high school and we were studying a Benjamin Zephaniah poem (I think it was one of his) that I had any clue whatsoever that 'half-caste' was in any way derogative.

 

Or, nobody would say 'negro' now but for my parents' generation it was the politically-correct term. Ditto 'coloured'. And like everybody else I was using 'fag', 'gay', 'homo' etc as an insult long before I had any idea what homosexuality was. I hear 'retarded' thrown around casually all the time, 'mentally-handicapped' was deemed acceptable (ish?) until fairly recently, and even the concept of rape has evolved into having sex with someone 'too intoxicated to consent' even if the girl is as forward as you, and I'm sure we've all had shags when absolutely wasted and don't think of ourselves as 'rapists'... and I'm pretty sure I've heard 'midget' used about Torito.

 

Basically, and speaking only for myself, I'll judge someone's 'racist/homophobic/sexist-etc quota' differently if they're 16 to if they're 86, these 'lexical changes' or whatever you want to call them don't happen over night and the older someone is, the longer a word has been entrenched, well, it becomes more difficult to change.

 

Except that doesn't make it any less racist. Just because a person's racism was accepted, doesn't mean that they weren't being racist. Slavery was legal and acceptable for hundreds of years, but it was also really fucking racist. Just because someone grew up racist, and did a bunch of racist shit, when racism was a more socially acceptable doesn't excuse them from being a racist. Sure if someone who has been raised in a more tolerant time makes us think worse than the people who were raised in the less tolerant time, but their social crimes are exactly the same. One of the reasons that racism, sexism, and homophobia won't go away is because people always make excuses why someone's prejudice is acceptable. If we treated it all of it the same for everyone we'd probably be better off, but instead we pick and choose who we want to give an out.

What a load of tosh, and you completely ignored MJHs point. Growing up as a brown boy in a small town I heard the word 'half caste' plenty of times, with zero racist intentions. I think I know my friends and family more than you do. That's why it's hard to have an intelligent conversation about racism or discrimination of any kind - it gets swallowed up by sweeping, reactionary statements like this. People forget the nuance and see things only in . . *cough*, black and white.

 

As for Meltzer, well I'm glad some of you guys read him so I don't have to.😉

[Badlittlekitten]

Fucking kindles

[Beast]

A) We know that Meltzer adds so much more to wrestling journalism than his periodic faux-pas so let's cut out the "Ha ha that's why I ignore everything Meltzer says or writes".

 

B ) It was a dumb comment, but I bet if you asked any of those wrestlers if they were racist for using the term, they'd say absolutely not. It's easy from an outside perspective to acknowledge how inappropriate that word is, but if a bunch of them had used it all the time with no clear consequences in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, etc.., then let's not throw too much of a hissy fit over Meltzer's eye blinders on this subject.

[BillThompson]

The wrestlers/promoters denying it's a racist comment has no bearing on Meltzer in the year 2015 as an educated outsider agreeing with their take. It's a monumentally ignorant comment, a racism enabling comment at that, and he deserves all the shit he is getting over it.