Dave Meltzer stuff

[stomperspc]

 

Didn't the Jeff Hardy run he's referring to happen in 2003 anyway?

 

Yep, people have been tweeting at him that correction and of course, he hasn't replied or corrected his previous talking point.

 

 

That was the part that irritated me the most. His main support for why Cena might not draw in ROH is completely false. Hardy wrestled one match in 2003 for ROH and a few earlier this year. Neither were after his run as Smackdown champion like Dave claimed.

 

FWIW, Hardy did draw fans for his single ROH appearance (prior to this year) in July 2003. No way of knowing how many but I was there and there were a fair amount of people clearly there for Jeff which would disprove his point even further since pre-peak Jeff Hardy still appeared to draw well in ROH. The hardcore ROH fans rejected him before the match even started, but he sold extra tickets.

[FMKK]

It would be interesting to know if anyone other than Dave genuinely believes that John Cena wouldnt add 1700 tickets to ROH events over three dates. It just seems so outlandish.

[hammerva]

It would be interesting to know if anyone other than Dave genuinely believes that John Cena wouldnt add 1700 tickets to ROH events over three dates. It just seems so outlandish.

 

I am sure there are about 6 or 7 guys who will agree with Dave. And then give you a Too Sweet or whatever their non trademarked gimmick is now

[Cox]

It was such a weird argument. I think Dave confused Hardy leaving WWE in 2003 (where he worked one show for ROH and then went to TNA) with Hardy leaving WWE in 2009 (when he went straight to TNA). When Hardy left in 2003, he was hardly a hot act. He had been off and on television because of his drug issues, and his work had gotten noticeably worse as a result. When Hardy left in 2009, he was hot off the feud with Punk during a period where he legitimately might have been the second most popular wrestler on the planet. He didn't move numbers for TNA, but then again, nobody moves numbers for TNA, because it's TNA.

 

And anyway, as somebody mentioned earlier, Hardy DID move numbers when he wrestled for ROH in 2003, even when he was ice cold. I can't find an ROH show that drew more than 700 fans before Death Before Dishonor 2003, which drew 1200. He wasn't exactly warmly embraced by the regulars, but he was the first person who drew actual women to an ROH show (which I think others have speculated before may have played a part in him not being warmly embraced by the regulars). I think he was still not in condition to perform and the match stunk, which is why he didn't come back, but to say he didn't draw would be false.

 

So I don't know what's going on with Dave here, as pretty much none of the argument involving Hardy made a lick of sense, and he kept doubling down on it until I think he realized the Hardy stuff was wrong and deleted those tweets. But it's still a weird hill to die on. If ROH announced Cena for any one of their shows, that show would instantly be the highest drawing ROH show in history. Yes, there's no way of knowing for sure, since John Cena will never wrestle for ROH. But c'mon. John Cena might be the one guy who could actually move numbers for TNA.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

Maybe he meant Matt Hardy's classic ROH SCUM run.

[Johnny Sorrow]

It's also kind of annoying how a lot of the people coming at Dave automatically dismiss anyone and anything not WWE, several times they've come at him that wrestler X or Y can't be a star in wrestling because they've never had at WWE run which is ridiculous.

And those are the targets for him to do his Twitter gimmick he was recommended to do.

I like to think there's two Daves. First there's "Dave, the Dave who is the predominate reporter and historian of pro wrestling, and then there's "Here's what I think/ Twitter character/ awkward radio personality, I don't give a fuck PWG is fun" Dave.

[Mad Dog]

It was such a weird argument. I think Dave confused Hardy leaving WWE in 2003 (where he worked one show for ROH and then went to TNA) with Hardy leaving WWE in 2009 (when he went straight to TNA). When Hardy left in 2003, he was hardly a hot act. He had been off and on television because of his drug issues, and his work had gotten noticeably worse as a result. When Hardy left in 2009, he was hot off the feud with Punk during a period where he legitimately might have been the second most popular wrestler on the planet. He didn't move numbers for TNA, but then again, nobody moves numbers for TNA, because it's TNA.

 

And anyway, as somebody mentioned earlier, Hardy DID move numbers when he wrestled for ROH in 2003, even when he was ice cold. I can't find an ROH show that drew more than 700 fans before Death Before Dishonor 2003, which drew 1200. He wasn't exactly warmly embraced by the regulars, but he was the first person who drew actual women to an ROH show (which I think others have speculated before may have played a part in him not being warmly embraced by the regulars). I think he was still not in condition to perform and the match stunk, which is why he didn't come back, but to say he didn't draw would be false.

 

So I don't know what's going on with Dave here, as pretty much none of the argument involving Hardy made a lick of sense, and he kept doubling down on it until I think he realized the Hardy stuff was wrong and deleted those tweets. But it's still a weird hill to die on. If ROH announced Cena for any one of their shows, that show would instantly be the highest drawing ROH show in history. Yes, there's no way of knowing for sure, since John Cena will never wrestle for ROH. But c'mon. John Cena might be the one guy who could actually move numbers for TNA.

I'm on my phone so sorry for quoting your whole post. That is a weird card to judge if Hardy brought more people in. Raven was a big deal in 2003 and that Punk feud really put RoH on the radar. I also remember that Joe/London match being really anticipated at the time. It's a really stacked RoH card.

[Bix]

 

It was such a weird argument. I think Dave confused Hardy leaving WWE in 2003 (where he worked one show for ROH and then went to TNA) with Hardy leaving WWE in 2009 (when he went straight to TNA). When Hardy left in 2003, he was hardly a hot act. He had been off and on television because of his drug issues, and his work had gotten noticeably worse as a result. When Hardy left in 2009, he was hot off the feud with Punk during a period where he legitimately might have been the second most popular wrestler on the planet. He didn't move numbers for TNA, but then again, nobody moves numbers for TNA, because it's TNA.

 

And anyway, as somebody mentioned earlier, Hardy DID move numbers when he wrestled for ROH in 2003, even when he was ice cold. I can't find an ROH show that drew more than 700 fans before Death Before Dishonor 2003, which drew 1200. He wasn't exactly warmly embraced by the regulars, but he was the first person who drew actual women to an ROH show (which I think others have speculated before may have played a part in him not being warmly embraced by the regulars). I think he was still not in condition to perform and the match stunk, which is why he didn't come back, but to say he didn't draw would be false.

 

So I don't know what's going on with Dave here, as pretty much none of the argument involving Hardy made a lick of sense, and he kept doubling down on it until I think he realized the Hardy stuff was wrong and deleted those tweets. But it's still a weird hill to die on. If ROH announced Cena for any one of their shows, that show would instantly be the highest drawing ROH show in history. Yes, there's no way of knowing for sure, since John Cena will never wrestle for ROH. But c'mon. John Cena might be the one guy who could actually move numbers for TNA.

I'm on my phone so sorry for quoting your whole post. That is a weird card to judge if Hardy brought more people in. Raven was a big deal in 2003 and that Punk feud really put RoH on the radar. I also remember that Joe/London match being really anticipated at the time. It's a really stacked RoH card.

It was also the debut in what would become their signature venue for a while and it was in the New York market. How well did the RexPlex return date draw?

[hammerva]

If I remember the show correctly, Jeff did bring in lot of new Ring of Honor fans to that show. Or at the very least wrestling fans who didn't know or care about Ring of Honor before that. I want to say that a good deal of those people that came left after the match as well.

[Dylan Waco]

I want to be clear about this because as usual when something like this happens people on all sides will misrepresent the positions of others, but my specific issue with Dave here was the claim that "Cena doesn't add 1700 [paying fans] in 3 days anywhere."

 

I have zero problem with Dave or anyone else trying to make an argument that Omega or Okada or whoever is a bigger singular ticket mover than Cena or Brock or whoever. I think it's tricky to prove and I think the relative models of the promotions being discussed kind of makes it a weird exercise all together, but if you want to debate it as a thought experiment have at it. That said, the idea that John Cena couldn't move 1700 fans to buy tickets in 3 days anywhere on earth, for any promotion, in any hypothetical situation, is about as stupid a position as one can take. Dave has his own agenda and that's never been more transparent, but that's at best an all time stupid troll. At best.

[Mad Dog]

Looks like the return show did 800 with Styles/Danielson in a No. 1 Contenders match. Joe/Briscoe which was the third date there did 1800.

[Bix]

Looks like the return show did 800 with Styles/Danielson in a No. 1 Contenders match. Joe/Briscoe which was the third date there did 1800.

Wasn't that last one there the first ever WrestleMania weekend ROH show?

[Johnny Sorrow]

 

Looks like the return show did 800 with Styles/Danielson in a No. 1 Contenders match. Joe/Briscoe which was the third date there did 1800.

Wasn't that last one there the first ever WrestleMania weekend ROH show?

Yep, and Piper cancelled cause of Feinstein, Dusty covered it and I got to meet Dusty and make him laugh.

[Sean Liska]

Dave didn't really argue that adding a big Cena match to an ROH show wouldn't draw as much as Kenny Omega, did he. I still love Dave, tell me he didn't make that argument.

[FMKK]

Dave didn't really argue that adding a big Cena match to an ROH show wouldn't draw as much as Kenny Omega, did he. I still love Dave, tell me he didn't make that argument.

I'm afraid I've got some bad news...

[Sean Liska]

 

Dave didn't really argue that adding a big Cena match to an ROH show wouldn't draw as much as Kenny Omega, did he. I still love Dave, tell me he didn't make that argument.

I'm afraid I've got some bad news...

And his basis for this is a misunderstanding of a Jeff Hardy ROH appearance 14 years ago?

 

Cena doing an autograph signing in Chicago would probably draw a few thousand people.

[Sean Liska]

Yeah, he's saying on Twitter that Cena probably wouldn't have increased ticket sales like Omega did,

 

This is almost depressing to me.

[C.S.]

Dave is a notoriously poor writer, unless he's edited (which he wouldn't be on Twitter). I can only hope this is his idea of dry humor and he was taking a subtle dig at ROH's geek fanbase. Probably not though, huh?

[Sean Liska]

Dave is a notoriously poor writer, unless he's edited (which he wouldn't be on Twitter). I can only hope this is his idea of dry humor and he was taking a subtle dig at ROH's geek fanbase. Probably not though, huh?

No he genuinely thinks that adding John Cena to a Chocago ROH show would not quickly sell out a 2,500 seat building like Omega. The idea of Cena on an ROH show would be so mind blowing and such a big deal, I don't know what the ceiling would be on him wrestling there.

[Sean Liska]

 

 

Dave is a notoriously poor writer, unless he's edited (which he wouldn't be on Twitter). I can only hope this is his idea of dry humor and he was taking a subtle dig at ROH's geek fanbase. Probably not though, huh?

 

No he genuinely thinks that adding John Cena to a Chicago ROH show would not quickly sell out a 2,500 seat building like Omega. The idea of Cena on an ROH show would be so mind blowing and such a big deal, I don't know what the ceiling would be on him wrestling there.

[hammerva]

Dave is a notoriously poor writer, unless he's edited (which he wouldn't be on Twitter). I can only hope this is his idea of dry humor and he was taking a subtle dig at ROH's geek fanbase. Probably not though, huh?

 

why would we take a subtle dig at ROH geek fanbase? He is part of ROH geek fanbase. At least until the Bullet Club stops showing up

 

Listen there are indie shows in maryland that are getting 500 or more people if people like Ryback or Lita or Jerry Lawler shows up.

[EricR]

I work with a woman who is not a wrestling fan, she is a John Cena fan. She watches wrestling JUST to see his appearances, has bobbleheads and action figures of him at her desk, literally knows nothing else about wrestling if it's not directly involving Cena. Kenny Omega doesn't have a woman like that, anywhere. Those kind of women would show up to see John Cena making ANY kind of appearance.

[JaymeFuture]

He has to be kidding on that one. He's usually the first to point out that Cena is one of the only draws in wrestling.

[Mad Dog]

I find it really impressive that Omega can move the needle that much when his home promotion is in Japan.

[Matt D]

I find it really impressive that Omega can move the needle that much when his home promotion is in Japan.

His home promotion is Twitter.