Dave Meltzer stuff

[Bix]

I don't care about it, but if Meltzer is showing up for all the Starrcast stuff, I'm surprised journalism ethics and other arguments aren't being raised against it.

 

Personally, I think all the Conrad related podcasts going after Dave is largely a work (there's probably a few times guys actually get upset at the reporting, but for the most part it's playing things up and looking to get shots in). This event seems like one of the clearest indications that despite all the negative chatter on boards, Dave looks at it as a work too, and may mostly care about how it helps his numbers.

Dave has stressed that they're not getting paid.

[BrianB]

 

I don't care about it, but if Meltzer is showing up for all the Starrcast stuff, I'm surprised journalism ethics and other arguments aren't being raised against it.

 

Personally, I think all the Conrad related podcasts going after Dave is largely a work (there's probably a few times guys actually get upset at the reporting, but for the most part it's playing things up and looking to get shots in). This event seems like one of the clearest indications that despite all the negative chatter on boards, Dave looks at it as a work too, and may mostly care about how it helps his numbers.

Dave has stressed that they're not getting paid.

 

 

Is that a meaningful enough professional ethics distinction--direct vs. indirect profiting?

 

I seem to recall something like this subject coming up when Ariel Helwani was signed up to cover the UFC on FS1 and there was chatter about whether that was proper or not.

[SteveMPunk]

LA Park in CMLL is the best thing ever, here hope it lasts long enough to get a few matches in or longer. Park is the fucking best.

Got these to look forward to tonight

 

L.A. PARK, VOLADOR JR. Y FLYER

vs

RUSH, EL TERRIBLE Y LA BESTIA DEL RING

 

ÁNGEL DE ORO, SOBERANO JR. Y EL HIJO DE L.A. PARK

vs

SANSÓN, CUATRERO Y FORASTERO

[WingedEagle]

Does anyone have a link to the Park angle?

[Matt D]

Honestly? I thought it was executed weakly. They needed to keep the beatdown going for at least another minute to ramp up the pressure. Park and Hijo de Park pretty much just followed Los Ingobernables out, like they were overeager to get out there. It really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things since them just being there is all that matters but I was disappointed when I saw it. They were out literally six seconds after the beatdown started. All payoff, no build.

[sek69]

Last week's back issue was the obit for Johnny Valentine, and Dave mentioned the last public appearance he made was for New Japan during Inoki's 30 anniversary celebration in 1990. He brought in a bunch of gajin he had classic matches with like Lou Thesz, Hansen, Andre, and Johnny was one of those guys. To my surprise he actually walked down the aisle on arm-support crutches. I was always under the impression he was wheelchair bound after the accident.

[Ricky Jackson]

I'm not sure his day-to-day post-accident situation, but he did manage Dale Valentine (Buddy Roberts) in San Antonio in the late-70s and appeared on TV with arm-support crutches

[Bix]

Last week's back issue was the obit for Johnny Valentine, and Dave mentioned the last public appearance he made was for New Japan during Inoki's 30 anniversary celebration in 1990. He brought in a bunch of gajin he had classic matches with like Lou Thesz, Hansen, Andre, and Johnny was one of those guys. To my surprise he actually walked down the aisle on arm-support crutches. I was always under the impression he was wheelchair bound after the accident.

 

Didn't he briefly work as figurehead commissioner for Gary Hart's World Class II promotion after that?

[BigBadMick]

And Slamboree 93, commentating on the bock v dory match.

[Fando]

On WOR Dave called Okada-Omega at Dominion the best match he's ever seen in his life. And although he didn't give it stars on air, in passing to a remark Bryan made about people freaking out about the Tokyo Dome match "because the scale was broken, even though it wasn't" Dave added "Well, it was today!"

 

So freakout incoming, I guess!

[Robert S]

So does that translate to 7* or 8*?

[Grimmas]

Has Roger Ebert ever gave a movie 6 stars or 6 1/4 stars? Just curious.

 

At this point Dave is just trolling.

[Matt D]

Nothing matters anymore. We've hit the end of history. I'm glad for the people who had an amazing wrestling experience last night though.

[Fando]

Has Roger Ebert ever gave a movie 6 stars or 6 1/4 stars? Just curious.

 

At this point Dave is just trolling.

 

Don't think so, but his opinion about ratings echoes what Dave has said consistently over the years

 

I cringe when people say, "How could you give that movie four stars?" I reply, "What in my review did you disagree with?" Invariably, they're stuck for an answer. One thing I try to do is provide an accurate account of what you will see, and how I feel about it. I cannot speak for you. Any worthwhile review is subjective. If we completely disagree, my words might nevertheless be useful or provocative. If you disagree with what I write, be my guest. If you disagree with how many stars I gave it, you can mail your opinion to where the sun don't shine.

 

[Cap]

hahaha... I finished the match (which I really really liked by the way) and immediately thought, "I bet Dave gives that at least 7 stars". Which proves that his use of star ratings has done more to keep him relevant and keep people talking about his work than anything else. I have never though about his star rating after a match until today. Its amusing to me. What he gives the match really could not matter much less to me, but I probably will find some strange amusement from the fallout among fans.

[Grimmas]

I ended up not tweeting this, but this is my thoughts:

 

I am really glad and love that you folks love NJPW as much as you do. However, if you tell me 6 different times in 2 years that you just saw the greatest match in history, I'm not going to believe you.

 

People would have you believe this run of NJPW is the greatest run of any company in history. Even 90's AJPW they were not turning out the new greatest match ever 1-3 times a year.

[Jmare007]

I can't wait to the fuckery that will ensue once Dave goes 7 stars - I personally want him to go 6.75, that would be hilarious on so many levels - but I do hope we don't get discussion n°20 about Dave and his tastes in wrestling in here. At this point we all know the deal, no need to get worked up about it, just have fun as others are the ones losing their shit

[Grimmas]

I can't wait to the fuckery that will ensue once Dave goes 7 stars - I personally want him to go 6.75, that would be hilarious on so many levels - but I do hope we don't get discussion n°20 about Dave and his tastes in wrestling in here. At this point we all know the deal, no need to get worked up about it, just have fun as others are the ones losing their shit

I think it all comes from a place of disappointment, that the top wrestling reporter (or whatever) is essentially Scott Keith.

[Robert S]

I can't wait to the fuckery that will ensue once Dave goes 7 stars - I personally want him to go 6.75, that would be hilarious on so many levels - but I do hope we don't get discussion n°20 about Dave and his tastes in wrestling in here. At this point we all know the deal, no need to get worked up about it, just have fun as others are the ones losing their shit

He want 5.5 for the BOSJ finals, which is about on the same level as a 6.75 score.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

hahaha... I finished the match (which I really really liked by the way) and immediately thought, "I bet Dave gives that at least 7 stars". Which proves that his use of star ratings has done more to keep him relevant and keep people talking about his work than anything else. I have never though about his star rating after a match until today. Its amusing to me. What he gives the match really could not matter much less to me, but I probably will find some strange amusement from the fallout among fans.

I assume he had this review/rating written out as soon as the match was even announced, like the New York Times does with celebrity obituaries. All he has to do is fill in the blanks.

[Beast]

 

I can't wait to the fuckery that will ensue once Dave goes 7 stars - I personally want him to go 6.75, that would be hilarious on so many levels - but I do hope we don't get discussion n°20 about Dave and his tastes in wrestling in here. At this point we all know the deal, no need to get worked up about it, just have fun as others are the ones losing their shit

I think it all comes from a place of disappointment, that the top wrestling reporter (or whatever) is essentially Scott Keith.

 

 

Sorry, but that's the height of pettiness and taking wrestling ratings too seriously.

 

This was the culmination of a series between two guys that Meltzer has praised every single time as building on previous matches. By his account (and many many other fans), this went above and beyond and was the best match of the series. Why wouldn't he call it the greatest match he's ever seen?

 

And why does it matter to you? I can't believe all the hate that builds up here every time Dave loves a New Japan match. He's not an outlier and you're kidding yourself if you think the majority of fans that agree with him are doing so solely to seem as wrestling-smart as he is.

[WingedEagle]

I ended up not tweeting this, but this is my thoughts:

 

I am really glad and love that you folks love NJPW as much as you do. However, if you tell me 6 different times in 2 years that you just saw the greatest match in history, I'm not going to believe you.

 

People would have you believe this run of NJPW is the greatest run of any company in history. Even 90's AJPW they were not turning out the new greatest match ever 1-3 times a year.

 

It might be the greatest run of any company in history. I don't think I'd make that claim myself at this point and likely would hesitate to do so until a while we can somehow put a bow on this era (assuming we can really ID when its a wrap), but I think much of why certain matches and workers are being touted is simply a result of the the environment. People can comment, react, evaluate and come to conclusions on matches in real time -- literally while watching the shows live! It contributes to the hyperbole (that's not to knock anyone's takes, I'm just one who prefers to let things cool a bit before coming to a conclusion, even if it turns out to be consensus).

 

Can you imagine if we had All Japan World in the 90s? With Twitter, Facebook, PWO and other means of instant communication? Just look at some of the matches from that era that you can find arguments for as all timers in one corner or another:

 

1990: Jumbo-Misawa I and II

1991: 4/20 6-man tag

1993: Hansen vs. Kawada, Hansen vs. Kobashi, 12/3/93

1994: 6/3/94

1995: 6/9/95

1996: 12/6/96

1997: Misawa vs. Kobashi

 

That's 10 matches right there. The arguments just weren't happening in real time.

 

I'm at 5 stars on Okada/Omega. In fact, I went 5, 5, 4.75 and 5 on their four matches. Greatest match ever? No idea. But those first 3 ratings were affirmed on rewatch and I couldn't imagine going lower on yesterday's match watching it unspoiled. If someone was so blown away as to call it, that terrific. I'm glad they loved it. When wrestling is that great and blows your mind to the point that you're on your feet watching a finish and screaming along with the TV? It doesn't happen that often but don't we all want that? That should be celebrated even if we don't necessarily agree with everyone's take.

[Grimmas]

 

 

I can't wait to the fuckery that will ensue once Dave goes 7 stars - I personally want him to go 6.75, that would be hilarious on so many levels - but I do hope we don't get discussion n°20 about Dave and his tastes in wrestling in here. At this point we all know the deal, no need to get worked up about it, just have fun as others are the ones losing their shit

I think it all comes from a place of disappointment, that the top wrestling reporter (or whatever) is essentially Scott Keith.

 

 

Sorry, but that's the height of pettiness and taking wrestling ratings too seriously.

 

This was the culmination of a series between two guys that Meltzer has praised every single time as building on previous matches. By his account (and many many other fans), this went above and beyond and was the best match of the series. Why wouldn't he call it the greatest match he's ever seen?

 

And why does it matter to you? I can't believe all the hate that builds up here every time Dave loves a New Japan match. He's not an outlier and you're kidding yourself if you think the majority of fans that agree with him are doing so solely to seem as wrestling-smart as he is.

 

You missed my point entirely.

 

First, I don't ratings too seriously. Just a guide to group matches by quality.

 

Second, I have no issue with someone calling a mach the greatest match ever (although doing it right after it happens, without any hindsight, makes you come off as a fool). The issue is NJPW has now produced the greatest match ever like 6 times in the last few years? Every match is the new best match ever. That just seems to come off idiotic. Give it some time.

 

Third, it's pretty stupid to have a system out of 5 and then give things that are above that system. Clearly giving a match a 6 1/4 star rating is a troll job. How can it be taken as anything else?

 

Fourth, I don't hate Dave or anyone else loving NJPW.

[Laz]

Bonus critique: these "best matches ever" feature worse selling, psychology, and move execution than Ki/Danielson 3/30/02. How can something be GOAT if it has a superior?

[Matt D]

I think there are diminishing returns for Dave being over the top. You hit so many spots in a row, month after month, and soon nothing means anything anymore. Social media's allowed him to become just like the wrestling he loves the most. He could give it twenty stars and I doubt we're going to have the same reaction we did a few months ago.