Most Consistent, Most Hit and Miss

[JerryvonKramer]

Recently people have talked up the fact that when Killer Kahn was on, he was really on, but when he was off, he was really shit -- the ultimate hit and miss guy.

 

Tito Santana is talked about as a guy who was always solid no matter what or where he was on the card.

 

Is there anyone that has a greater vairance than Kahn, that is higher highs and lower lows? And is there anyone more consistent than Santana? Which names are in the mix?

[El-P]

Most consistent :

 

Arn Anderson

Bobby Eaton

Yoshida Mariko

Hiromi Yagi

[Loss]

Jerry Estrada is the biggest hit-or-miss guy I can think of as a wrestler. He alternates between brilliant and horrible pretty regularly.

 

I don't know if he's the most consistent, but Arn Anderson is the first wrestler I think of when I think consistency.

[soup23]

Based on the footage available of him that I have seen, I would put Chavo Guererro in this category. I know the fottage of him from the 1970's is limited but in my viewing wiht the 80's project, he was great in the mid south matches, pretty terrible in the New Japan matches, and only so so in the All Japan stuff.

[El-P]

As far as hit & miss, Don Muraco comes to mind. When he's on and wants to work, he's a superb worker. When he's lazy, good luck...

[KB8]

Muraco's a really good shout. The TDM and hour draw against Backlund from MSG and Philly respectively are GREAT matches. Then he wrestles Steamboat a a few years later and they mostly bordered on awful. Muraco's performances basically reflected the quality of the matches in question.

[JerryvonKramer]

Based on the footage available of him that I have seen, I would put Chavo Guererro in this category. I know the fottage of him from the 1970's is limited but in my viewing wiht the 80's project, he was great in the mid south matches, pretty terrible in the New Japan matches, and only so so in the All Japan stuff.

With you on this. When I saw some of his matches on the Mid-South I was literally like OMFG Chavo is the greatest worker EVER EVER!

 

Then he turned up on All Japan and was mostly disappointing.

 

How do people rate Manny Fernandez for this? He has a rep for being hit and miss.

[Mad Dog]

Sabu is the king of hit or miss. So many things that can go wrong. He might blow a spot or get pissed off. You tend to know when you're in trouble during a Sabu match.

 

Jeff Jarrett is really consistent across his career. Doesn't have great matches but puts on the same level of solid matches with just about everyone.

[jdw]

As far as hit & miss, Don Muraco comes to mind. When he's on and wants to work, he's a superb worker. When he's lazy, good luck...

 

Muraco's a really good shout. The TDM and hour draw against Backlund from MSG and Philly respectively are GREAT matches. Then he wrestles Steamboat a a few years later and they mostly bordered on awful. Muraco's performances basically reflected the quality of the matches in question.

Totally agree on this. I'm not sure if it was even a 50/50 thing where half the time he was on, and half he wasn't. He'd start feuds like the one with Snuka like a house of fire... then quickly the quality would fall off in future matches. The entire Steamboat feud is wildly disappointing, with just short flashes within matches of what could be... then lots of crap. Hard to blame on Steamer since we've seen him game against so many opponents.

 

I suspect that Buddy Rose fans could point to him as being pretty damn consistent in his prime. Probably not by doing the same match all the time, since he probably worked a different match against Pedro Morales in the WWF than he did working with one of his favorite opponents doing a 2/3 fall match in Portland. But... Buddy had so much of his own bumping stooging selling spots to fall back on that he could have a match with Pedro that probably fit into what his fans would see as, "Yeah... that's how Buddy could put on something passable against someone like Pedro."

 

One could say Flair was pretty consistent because he could/would fall back on the Flair Match, had lots of his stuff he brought to the table and could move it along. I don't view consistency as *not* bouncing between **1/2 and ****1/2 all the time, because opponents often dictate stuff like that. Working with Barry Windham is different from working with Dusty. **1/2 against Dusty might be a perfectly watchable match: they laid out a decent arc, worked the crowd, did their shit. It might not grab you as much as his best against say Barry, but you got a different type of consistency from Flair: he worked hard, he worked up the crowd, he made the face look good, etc. He did that night after night, year after year, for a decade or more.

 

I'd say there as also a long stretch like that out of Kobashi in the 90s. Not always my cup of tea, but you do have to give him credit for pretty much always bringing it when he could. There were times where it's clear others were taking it easy, while Kobashi was almost always putting on the Kobashi Show. Again, it might not seem consistent when one night he's having a ***** match while earlier in the series he's having a *** six man tag. But it's likely that you'll find Kobashi in the six man is working hard, probably is getting as much reaction from the crowd as anyone, and not exactly blowing shit left and right.

 

John

[MikeCampbell]

Keiji Mutoh also fits the category. When he was motivated, like he was versus Hashimoto in '95, the result would be a top pick for best NJPW match of the decade. Other times, like vs. Takada in '95 and '96 . . . not so much.

[goodhelmet]

The first name that came to mind was Undertaker. I understand that the opponent has something to do with it but he can be on the best match and worst match of back to back PPVs with ease.

[Chess Knight]

Didn't even think of Taker for hit and miss, but yeah that seems about as suitable as anything.

 

I'm finding it a little hard to think of anyone more straight-up consistant than Rey Mysterio or Ricky Steamboat. They have their "lows," but I think it's more off a "Rey Mysterio in 1999 is kind of disappointing compared to Rey Mysterio in 1997" rather than "Rey Mysterio in 1999 wasn't any good."

[JerryvonKramer]

Ricky Steamboat has had his fair share of sucky matches though.

[Childs]

Really? I think Steamboat would be more of a candidate for the consistent list than the inconsistent.

[Mad Dog]

Ricky Steamboat has had his fair share of sucky matches though.

Michael Jordan had his fair share of sucky performances too. It doesn't mean he wasn't the greatest player of all time. Sure, anyone with a 20 year career is going to have tons of bad matches to their name. That's just part of being human. The question here is could you depend on Steamboat to go out there and give a good performance 9 times out of 10. As an aside to that, just because a match is bad doesn't mean that a particular wrestler gave a bad performance. You can go out there, put on a great performance, do nothing wrong and have your opponent totally ruin the match.

[Chess Knight]

Ricky Steamboat has had his fair share of sucky matches though.

I doubt you'll find a wrestler without their fair share of sucky matches. Even with that I can't really recall a truly sucky Steamboat match, and I'd definitely take the worst stuff I've seen from him over the worst Tito Santana.

 

--

 

How good a pick is Tenryu for most consistant?

[JerryvonKramer]

There are plenty of poor Steamboat matches against decent workers. Without even scratching underneath the surface to look for them:

 

vs. Snuka on the All Japan set

 

vs. Mil Mascaras on the All Japan set

 

vs. Rude at Royal Rumble '88

 

vs. Muta in 1990

 

vs. pretty much anyone in WWF circa 1991

 

vs. Pillman at Havoc 92

 

vs. Regal at Fall Brawl '93

 

vs. Regal again at Starrcade '93

 

I'm not saying Steamboat wasn't one of the best workers ever to step inside a ring, I'm saying that he almost certainly wasn't the most consistent guy.

 

I know he has a massive, massive rep, but I've just seen too many disappointing Steamboat matches for him to count here.

 

Arn's highs or Tito's highs don't go near Steamboat's highs, but I wonder if they have as many disappointing matches.

 

Feel free to shoot this down, I am aware that this is a bit heretical and that Steamer is one of the last truly sacred cows.

 

For me, Steamboat needs his opponent to have a good night to have a good match -- take the 88 match with Rude and the fucking classic 92 match with Rude from Beach Blast. The difference is Rude.

 

Put Rude from 88 in there with Tito and it's probably a **1/2 or so. Maybe Tito never had a ***** in his career, but he'll consistently give you that **1/2 or so no matter who he's in there with. I don't think Steamboat was like that.

 

How good a pick is Tenryu for most consistant?

From 1980 to 1987 I'd say he was consistently bland, after that I don't know. The one match from 88 I've seen I liked. And he shows real personality in it. I have had quite a big problem with Tenryu watching the All Japan set so far.

[Chess Knight]

I'm not here to shoot anybody down.

 

Unsuprisingly this is boiling down to different tastes in the long run. I haven't watched every match you mentioned there, but I really enjoyed the 88 Rude match, 92 Pillman match and Regal matches (*really* enjoyed would be overstating that because I actually was a little disappointed with them). If I have the right match in mind then I remember thinking the Sheik match was fun as well. Been years since I watched some of them, and my tastes have done an enormous change, but if I went and watched them today I doubt I'd think they were poor.

 

"For me, Steamboat needs his opponent to have a good night to have a good match"

 

This interested me when I first read it, because at first I thought, "I def. don't agree with that," and then I tried to cook up some examples and can't. There's tons of examples of a match being more of a "The Steamboat Show" than a "The _Steamboat's_Opponent_ Show," but I don't remember a really good Steamboat match with a poor opponent. Maybe the Honky stuff?

 

I should probably stay away from a Tito Santana talk. I get the idea I'm less of a Tito fan than a good chunk of people and honestly haven't watched a match of his in....probably a good 20 months. Wouldn't surprise me if I went back and loved a bunch of his stuff, but I would be surprised if I thought he was pulling better matches and performances than Ricky Steamboat. Again, though, I won't say for sure for now.

 

Flew off topic there for a bit.

 

re:Tenryu- Yeah, there's a lot of Tenryu I have yet to see, but from what I've watched the guy really starts hitting "it" somewhere in 88. Idk if "bland" is the word, but if someone read about all the Tenryu love and then goes to watch nothing but pre-88 Tenryu then they'd probably be let down a little. I'd still say he had enough good and little enough bad to call him cosistant during that time, though.

 

Another most consistant: Terry Funk? What's the *truly* bad Terry Funk? Or, even, the "less than average"?

[Victator]

vs. Pillman at Havoc 92

 

vs. Regal at Fall Brawl '93

 

vs. Regal again at Starrcade '93

Those are not bad matches.

[ButchReedMark]

I've always seen Fit Finlay as a "Mr Consistency" candidate.

[ohtani's jacket]

Did anyone have a good match with Rick Rude in 1988? Did Tito have a good match in 1988? Steamboat had numerous matches which were poor but so did Arn and anyone else you care to name. Every guy who I can think of who was consistently good had poor matches. It's a question of how many good matches they had amid the poor ones and how consistent they were in their prime.

[shoe]

I would put Steamboat down as really consistant. Everyone has stinkers, of all those listed as stinkers they aren't stinkers. I can't say about the Muta match haven't seen it in forever, but I do remember not liking it. Some other guys mentioned and not mentioned are Eaton,Arn, Tully, Smothers, and Candido are pretty damn solid. Christian is another that is pretty solid. I always thought JBL could be pretty hit or miss. Batista was another one that was up and down. Sting would fall into the hit or miss category.

[Phil Schneider]

Sami Callihan would be the indy guy I would put here. He has an entertaining formula that can be excellent against a great wrestler like Necro or Finlay, but can make matches with loads like Kyle O'Reily and Zach Sabre Jr. fun too.

[jdw]

Hogan-Rude had a lot of bullshit early, but turned into a pretty passable Hogan Match.

 

Rude's late 1987 matches that I haven't seen but are of interest are:

 

* 09/20/87 and 11/06/87 against Orndorff in MLG and Houston respectively

* 12/26/87 against Steamboat in MSG

 

I suspect the MSG matches against Steamboat is better than the Rumble match. PPV matches in the era tended to be over "controlled" by what Vince/Pat/whomever wanted, while house show matches tended to have the wrestlers do their thing to fill the time. There definately were PPV matches helped by that heavy hand, such as Rude-Warrior at Summer Slam '89. But there were house show matches where the guys doing their on thing led to a more watchable match than the two might do on PPV. An example would be the enjoyable 02/11/89 Rude vs Santana that pretty much was something they'd never really luck into on a PPV.

 

Rude's big feud in 1988 was with Jake, and there are a lot of matches between the two available. Don't know if you ever ran across a decent one.

 

As far as Tito in 1988, you liked the match with Valentine. I liked the one Strikeforce vs Harts match from 1988 that exists (two others from 1987 were around when I reviewed them, including the title change which was a very good Nitro Style match).

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

If I have the right match in mind then I remember thinking the Sheik match was fun as well.

If you're talking about the one from All Japan in 81 then I'm one of two guys I know who has put that top 10/ top 15, really really like that match. *Most* others have it bottom 5 along with the Snuka match. Taste is a fickle thing.

 

"For me, Steamboat needs his opponent to have a good night to have a good match"

 

This interested me when I first read it, because at first I thought, "I def. don't agree with that," and then I tried to cook up some examples and can't. There's tons of examples of a match being more of a "The Steamboat Show" than a "The _Steamboat's_Opponent_ Show," but I don't remember a really good Steamboat match with a poor opponent. Maybe the Honky stuff?

I was thinking Honky too, but really are those matches any good? The title switch is a 5-minute job. Savage had much better stuff with both Honky and, of course, Steamer.

 

I should probably stay away from a Tito Santana talk. I get the idea I'm less of a Tito fan than a good chunk of people and honestly haven't watched a match of his in....probably a good 20 months. Wouldn't surprise me if I went back and loved a bunch of his stuff, but I would be surprised if I thought he was pulling better matches and performances than Ricky Steamboat. Again, though, I won't say for sure for now.

I think there's a big difference between "being a better performer" and "being a consistent performer".

 

In football ("soccer"), there's this Portguese rightback called Paulo Ferreira. Back in 2004/5, he was rated as one of the best defenders in Europe. Jose Mourinho said of him: "[he's] a player who will never be man of the match but will always score 7/10 for his individual display." He'll never be the best player on the pitch, but he'll seldom be the worst player on the pitch either.

 

(NB. Given Ferreira's career since, in hindsight, it is debatable whether that is true).

 

But that's an example of a guy who is "consistent". There are players in football who are much *MUCH* better than him. From the same timeframe, say, Ronaldinho - he was off-the-charts good. Maybe he'll give you 10/10 four matches in a row, but then on a bad day he could give you 5/10. You get the picture.

 

I don't think Steamer is a 7/10 guy. Sure, he was more often than not BETTER than that, but there are too many occassions for me when a match of his falls below expectations for him to be classed as "consistent" in my book.

 

vs. Pillman at Havoc 92

 

vs. Regal at Fall Brawl '93

 

vs. Regal again at Starrcade '93

Those are not bad matches.

 

They were all very disappointing for me. Maybe EXPECTATION plays a part here too. When you get someone of Steamboat's level stepping in there with those guys I'd expect a **** match as a bare minimum. None of those matches are of that quality.

 

Did anyone have a good match with Rick Rude in 1988? Did Tito have a good match in 1988? Steamboat had numerous matches which were poor but so did Arn and anyone else you care to name. Every guy who I can think of who was consistently good had poor matches. It's a question of how many good matches they had amid the poor ones and how consistent they were in their prime.

Jake?