A thread in which Dylan compares various wrestlers to HHH

[goc]

Ron Killings

Terry Taylor

Plowboy Frazier

Greg Gagne

John Nord

Ted Dibiase Jr.

Cody Rhodes

Chavo Guerrero Jr.

Harry Smith

Justin Credible

[ohtani's jacket]

Tony St. Clair

Mark Rocco

Steve Wright

Cien Caras

Canek

Rayo de Jalisco, Jr.

Blue Demon, Jr.

Nobuhiko Takada

Minoru Suzuki

Minoru Tanaka

Koji Kanemoto

Dick Vriji

[Strummer]

Even post-crow Sting would surprise you with matches and performances where he was working above what the traditional conception of him was.

Uh. When? Because I don't think I've ever seen such a dramatic before/after contrast in ring skills as there was with Sting after his gimmick change. Most of the time he looked like he'd completely given up and was just running through the motions. (Especially memorable was his godawful performance at Halloween Havoc '98, when he dragged the worst match I've ever seen from Bret Hart.) Every once in a while he'd seem to wake up and have a better-than-expected match with random folks like DDP or Sid, but mostly it's like it wasn't even the same guy. Oddly, it seems like he tries harder in TNA than he did in late-90s WCW, but by then his body was shot and you could tell that he couldn't do the stuff he wanted to anymore.

Sting had some really good matches in 1999 (albeit, to me, surprisingly). v DDP 4/26 smokes any other WCW match from 99 through to the end. 9/20 v Benoit rocks, and 4/12 v Flair felt like Sting had never changed from the late 80s. I'm not going to touch on the HHH stuff, but yeah, I went through some 99 WCW recently and Sting stuck out to me as a "holy shit he isn't completely sucking like I expected but is actually pretty damn good" wrestler during the period.

 

Sting was only kinda bad his first two matches back. By the summer he was not back to old form but he was trying his best and having the occasional good showing.

 

By 99 he was pretty consistent with the DDP match and the Goldberg Slamboree match.

 

the Hogan match at Superbrawl 98 is just astonishly bad. He had bad matches with Savage and Bret too. He was really quite terrible for all of 98 before bouncing back in 99

[Chess Knight]

I kind of liked the SuperBrawl 8 match. Well, I guess I only liked it because I expected it to be the pure dogshit, but Hulk's belt usage was fun and he came off like the hierarch wanker that he was.

I'm probably going too off topic ITT.

[Victator]

Even post-crow Sting would surprise you with matches and performances where he was working above what the traditional conception of him was.

Uh. When? Because I don't think I've ever seen such a dramatic before/after contrast in ring skills as there was with Sting after his gimmick change. Most of the time he looked like he'd completely given up and was just running through the motions. (Especially memorable was his godawful performance at Halloween Havoc '98, when he dragged the worst match I've ever seen from Bret Hart.) Every once in a while he'd seem to wake up and have a better-than-expected match with random folks like DDP or Sid, but mostly it's like it wasn't even the same guy. Oddly, it seems like he tries harder in TNA than he did in late-90s WCW, but by then his body was shot and you could tell that he couldn't do the stuff he wanted to anymore.

Sting had some really good matches in 1999 (albeit, to me, surprisingly). v DDP 4/26 smokes any other WCW match from 99 through to the end. 9/20 v Benoit rocks, and 4/12 v Flair felt like Sting had never changed from the late 80s. I'm not going to touch on the HHH stuff, but yeah, I went through some 99 WCW recently and Sting stuck out to me as a "holy shit he isn't completely sucking like I expected but is actually pretty damn good" wrestler during the period.

 

Sting was only kinda bad his first two matches back. By the summer he was not back to old form but he was trying his best and having the occasional good showing.

 

By 99 he was pretty consistent with the DDP match and the Goldberg Slamboree match.

 

 

the Hogan match at Superbrawl 98 is just astonishly bad. He had bad matches with Savage and Bret too. He was really quite terrible for all of 98 before bouncing back in 99

 

The Savage match was not bad at all and neither was the Bret match.

[Jingus]

ThSavage match was not bad at all and neither was the Bret match.

I just rewatched Bret/Sting from Havoc '98, and oh boy is that a piece of crap. Probably worse than any TNA Sting match. It starts with some pointless Zybysko stalling. Both men look slow and lethargic, like they just don't give a damn and don't wanna be there. Sting's shine period is incredibly boring, in no way does he look like a fired-up babyface who wants to kick his opponent's ass. Bret's offense is as crisp and snappy as ever, but in between moves he's just kind of strolling around the ring for no reason, not looking remotely like he's in any kind of fight and projecting little other than petulant boredom. The dreaded rear chinlock makes an extended cameo. There's no flow or psychology, they're just doing random moves and not selling anything other than "man, I'm so tired" kind of selling when they're on defense, especially Sting. There's a little bit of weak Attitude floor brawling as a concession to the times. Dull dull DULL.

 

And then there's the referee shit; jesus, I don't think I've seen two professionals of this caliber do SUCH bad work with the ref. First of all, they awkwardly structure a brass knux spot where the ref is clearly looking right at the weapon several times before he's supposed to notice it. (The knux get thrown away and nobody gets hit with them, which Anton Chekov could tell you is a bad idea.) Then he's looking right down at Sting's torso when Bret hits a supposedly-invisible low blow from behind when the ref can obviously see Bret's fist. Then they have a lame ref bump, where Sting swings his elbow kinda somewhere not really near the official's head and the dude drops to the mat like he's been shot. Bret provides the only worthwhile highlight of this fiasco by immediately dropping a leg on the back of the ref's head, just to be a dick.

 

Then, an amazing thing happens. The ref is stretched out in the center of the ring... but Sting and Bret have Stuff To Do and apparently don't think that getting the unconscious dude out of the way is important. They leave him laying there and run spots right over him! First they do an irish whip/attempted stinger splash spot where they both have to leap over the guy's body, which is bad enough. And then, Sting just stops selling for a moment (right after he'd just gotten kicked in the face) to visibly check on the referee. What?!

 

At this point, Bret and Sting do maybe the least professional thing I've ever seen either man attempt: they do a fucking superplex when the ref is still laying in the middle of the ring! You can see Bret kinda scrunch his body up to try and avoid contact, but his ass still lands right on the ref's feet. An astonishingly stupid spot. No idea what the HELL anyone involved was thinking. If some idiot kid in training class did that, he'd be on the receiving end of a furious lecture and then be viciously stretched for the rest of the day. You expect more from BRET FUCKING HART than some garbage yardtard shit like this, that could've EASILY dealt serious injuries to both him and the referee. And Bret even gets up first, when he was the guy on the receiving end of the move!

 

After that idiocy, Sting does a stinger splash and "hits his head on the turnbuckle" to knock himself out; this splash looked nearly identical to every other one he's ever done, and it made no sense why he dropped down selling it. In fact, the whole spot makes no sense; why would Sting knock himself out while doing one of his own patented maneuvers? It's not like Bret dodged or anything, he just remained motionless and took the move. And then Bret gingerly "beats" Sting with a baseball bat (why not go back to the previously-established brass knuckles, which Bret could work a hell of a lot easier than a fuckin' bat?) and puts him in the sharpshooter. This is the first time this hold has even been attempted in this match; why the hell didn't they play up the fact that both guys use the same finsiher and do some spots based on that fact? The ref wakes back up and checks Sting in a really awkward manner, raising and dropping the arm in one way on the first check and then differently on the other two, which was confusing enough that a friend watching with me thought the ref had only checked twice.

 

Christ almighty, no, that was not good. Not in any way, except for Botchamania footage.

[Victator]

I have not seen the Bret match in a long time. I saw the Savage match fairly recent.

[Dylan Waco]

George Steele

 

Man I fucking hate Steele. I suppose that I should appreciate him in the sense that the guy got over his gimmick really well, but I've never seen a Steele match that I thought was any good. I think Savage worked some fun spots around his existence once, but that's it.

 

Barry Horowitz

 

Barry by a mile. I own Bix's Horowitz comp and it is a lot of fun. Lots of short matches, but he managed to make them all at least somewhat different. The losing streak Jack Hart gimmick was a lot better than HHH's streak of winning every match even when he shouldn't. When Horowitz got more time to work he could really have an excellent match. Barry could carry turds like Scott Putski, work on Owen's level when squared off with him and have a sub-five minute match with Mike Jackson in Florida that is good enough to make an 80's Set. Of course he's known mostly as a jobber but he was a fun offensive wrestler ad added a lot of value there. There is also the story Phil likes to tell of APW bringing in Horowitz to work Donovan Morgan and then eating him alive before losing on a banana peel finish which means Barry might even be better at burying up and coming stars than HHH.

 

Manny Fernandez

 

I am not Rob Naylor, but Manny Fernandez is pretty fucking awesome. Great brawler, heavy hitter and bleeder, surprisingly cool highspots that always feel somewhat unexpected. Awesome delusional wrestling promo guy as well. Manny is one of those guys like Sabu or Abby who I will watch against just about anyone because something fun or violent or explosive is almost guaranteed to happen. Unlike HHH who dilutes what little talent he has by spreading it around excessively long matches, Manny was a burst of energy type guy who would maximize his (usually) much shorter matches. I can see no argument for HHH at all here.

 

Barry Darsow

 

Darsow might be the most lateral guy to HHH I've seen listed so far. Both guys are pretty boring when left to their own devices, but can turn it up in the right situations against the right guys. Darsow's "right situation" was as a tag worker relying on superior partners to help build the heat of the matches. HHH's "right situation" was against the most over guys in wrestling, at the height of their popularity, milking the moment. I enjoyed the Hogpen match v. Henry Godwin on last watch more than I would have guessed, but it's not as good as the Blacktop Bully v. Dustin King of The Road match. Also not sure HHH has the diversity of facial expressions needed to make the Repo Man gimmick work, though undeserving, sneak, who steals hard earned labor value of better men while they are busy working is a gimmick that better suited HHH. Still I see this as a battle between exact equals.

 

Tatanka

 

This is one where I would really have to go back and watch an era of WWF I really don't want to go back and watch. I do remember thinking Tatanka as a heel was a really fun turn and Tatanka's change in body language and expressions from face to heel was really great. Also his random return was just the sort of random return you want out of a wrestler as he was now an old vet running around stiffing people. I seem to recall him being really impressive during that run in both tags and singles. I have not watched any Chris Chavis indy work (that I can recall anyway). I would lean toward Tatanka, mainly because he never gave me anything as terrible as Evolution era Trip.

 

CW Anderson

 

I am a pretty big fan of CW so I will take him here. When you watch all the ECW, C.W. really comes across as the guy most screwed by circumstance. He really could have been working more meaningful matches right from the jump, but instead was stuck teaming with Billy Wiles and working a string of matches v. Roadkill/Doring that were all fun but basically identical. When they moved him up he immediately showed he could hang and had some really good performances. One of the best punches in wrestling, great facial expressions, excellent and underrated bumper, great versatility. Watching him live a few times on random indies years later he still had all the same tools. He didn't get many chances and came around at the wrong time, but with the chances he got he never disappointed. Sort of the anti-thesis of HHH.

 

Perry Saturn

 

Oh this is kind of a tough one. Saturn is one of those guys who everyone loved in the 90's, but the vast majority of his work doesn't hold up. For spot machines the guy really wasn't that impressive outside of the period where he was in a cast and showing up to do a couple of needlessly insane spots a match. I suspect his best run was WCW and I do not have terribly fond memories of that. I would say HHH's 2000 was better than any year Saturn had, though Saturn on average was likely to do at least one interesting spot a match, whereas there were many HHH matches were nothing interesting would happen. Still I have to go with HHH here.

 

Tom Zenk

 

Already covered.

 

Al Snow

 

Snow is a guy who looked like he was on a path to being one of the best in the World in 95. Then SMW went out of business and he just plummeted. Seriously I don't think I've ever seen a guy decline more sharply than Snow as he quickly became a parody. He rebounded some with the Head gimmick which was at least interesting, though there are few matches from that era that really stand out. SMW Snow is better than anything HHH ever did in his career, but it was a really short run. I would maybe lean SLIGHTLY toward HHH here, because mediocre Snow is up there with mediocre HHH and HHH had more good matches.

 

Dave Taylor

 

Taylor is one of those guys who does not have a ton of in your face obvious great matches, but man he was good at all the little things I look for in a wrestler. Tight holds, stiff strikes, good range of expressions/body language, could come across as a tough guy or a preening pussy depending on the situation, et. I really wish EricR would do the complete and accurate on Taylor he keeps threatening to do because I really think some cool stuff could be over turned. I would take Taylor over HHH on the strength of fundamentals and the fact that I can't recall a bad Taylor performance. But it would be nice to have some matches to point to.

 

Paul Burchill

 

Not really a Burchill fan. In a year where Christian had great long matches with every scrub/undercard guy named to man, he had good matches with Burchill but they were the least of his good matches. That's kind of Burchill's high point to me. HHH has a better high point than that.

 

Van Hammer

 

"Pimp me some Van Hammer?" No. Though I thought he brought about as much to his brawl with Foley as HHH did.

 

Jimmy Del Rey

 

I really, really like Jimmy Del Ray. I thought as a jobber Jim Backlund was a lot of fun. Crazy bumper, with an awesome sleaze bag look. The Gigolo character fit him about as well as any character has ever fit anyone. He was so great in the Bodies and that incarnation was a lot better than the original version. Really had the right combo of bruising tough guy spots, stooging, and big time athleticism that you needed to make an act like that work. Hell I even liked his run as bizarro Jimmy Graffiti jobber in WCW Nitro era. The only real argument for HHH is that Del Ray's best stuff was in tags and he didn't really get a chance to shine much in singles. But that is sort of a back door argument to make a case for a worker that is inferior by every other metric.

 

Tony Mamaluke

 

Man I miss Mamaluke. Little guys who take crippling and utterly insane bumps is my second favorite thing in wrestling. My favorite is fat guys who do crazy athletic/highspots. I would guess that Mamaluke has broken more guardrails with his shins than any wrestler in history. That has to count for something right? Yes he was in the third best incarnation of the FBI, but still those bumps. He didn't really have a lot of meat to his career, but when he was so much better than HHH at the one thing HHH was actually consistently good at....

 

Damien 666

 

I would really need to watch more of his work. Watching him I never thought he was a great wrestler and thought his act was pretty weak. On the other hand miming is not easy. And I seem to recall him being in one or two brawls I liked a lot.

[Victator]

Taylor and Regal carried the four team ladder match at Armageddon 06. Which I think is the best WWF ladder match ever. Reason being it felt like four teams trying to win and hurt each other, instead of playing mouse trap.

[Dylan Waco]

It's not as good as either of the Michaels and Ramon Ladder matches, but other than that it is my favorite Ladder Match in WWE history too. The whole dynamic of that match was really cool as you had the grizzled vets in Regal/Taylor who were "afraid" to climb the ladders but loved to fuck people up, MNM and the Hardyz who were both guest entrants and both sort of presented as "all time great" tag team/special attraction types and London/Kendrick trying to survive against a bunch of all timers, with the deck stacked, in a violent, insane war.

[Tim Evans]

Nightmare Danny Davis

Jeff Gaylord

Billy Joe Travis

Ian Rotten

Reggie B Fine

Miss Texas

[Cox]

Jimmy Del Rey

 

I really, really like Jimmy Del Ray. I thought as a jobber Jim Backlund was a lot of fun. Crazy bumper, with an awesome sleaze bag look. The Gigolo character fit him about as well as any character has ever fit anyone. He was so great in the Bodies and that incarnation was a lot better than the original version. Really had the right combo of bruising tough guy spots, stooging, and big time athleticism that you needed to make an act like that work. Hell I even liked his run as bizarro Jimmy Graffiti jobber in WCW Nitro era. The only real argument for HHH is that Del Ray's best stuff was in tags and he didn't really get a chance to shine much in singles. But that is sort of a back door argument to make a case for a worker that is inferior by every other metric.

I would say that while I overall agree that Del Ray was a better fit in the Bodies than Stan Lane, I think Stan Lane had better chemistry with the Rock 'n' Roll, and considering that was their main feud for a good chunk of SMW's existence, I think that counts for something. I don't think Lane would have been as good against the Armstrongs or against the Thugs, but I preferred Lane and Prichard vs Morton and Gibson than I did Prichard and Del Ray.

[Ricky Jackson]

How about...

 

Vince, Shane and Steph

[Matt D]

"strength of fundamentals"

 

I like that. I think personally that's a much bigger indicator of whether someone's good or not to me than "great matches" because a lot of guys just aren't put into the position to have those.

 

As for Van Hammer, i'm still annoyed I've never got anyone to watch/comment on the Van Hammer vs Big Sky miracle match from 93.

[JerryvonKramer]

"strength of fundamentals"

 

I like that. I think personally that's a much bigger indicator of whether someone's good or not to me than "great matches" because a lot of guys just aren't put into the position to have those.

 

I remember arguing this on here re: the question of DiBiase. See this thread in particular: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...&hl=dibiase

[Loss]

If I'm working with an electric oven instead of a far superior gas one, and I'm confined to using a pre-made Duncan Hines cake mix, but still forget to add the egg, the cake is going to fall apart. It's proof positive that I'm a lousy baker too.

 

However, if I follow the instructions on the box, the end result may be a decent cake, but it doesn't mean that people should praise me for it. Remembering to add vegetable oil isn't a sign of greatness. But it does mean that I can follow directions. Not really remarkable, but some people may have been living on legumes and cardboard for so long that when someone presents them with a fundamentally solid box cake, they go crazy over it, despite it not really being anything special.

 

And maybe the pressure from the kitchen manager isn't to bake a delicious, mouth-watering cake, but rather just to make sure I finish it on time so the next person in line can bake their cake. He doesn't care that I spent years in small bakeries honing my craft and that food critics have highly rated my stuff. I am working with Duncan Hines now, and I need to understand my limitations.

 

Or maybe I work within a system where I have all of these amazing pastry skills, but I'm a sous chef for a cake baker, and I'm not allowed to make pastries because it would upstage the executive chef, who will have all the time and resources he needs to truly produce something great.

 

In the end, I made great money and more people ate my cakes because of the increased exposure, but I never got to use my dazzling pastry skills, and all those years of working in small bakeries went to waste when I finally got a shot with Duncan Hines. Yes, it's because I worked in an environment where I couldn't and I made the best of it. Maybe I'm far more talented than the executive chef. But that's reality. One of the consequences of that is that while it may be a travesty, I'll never be remembered as one of the greatest bakers who ever lived. Nor should I be, even though my skills and potential were there. The reason? Because right or wrong, I never made a great cake on my own.

[El-P]

Amazing analogy Loss.

[Matt D]

I had a cookie that Dave Taylor made once that tasted a hell of a lot better than this really big cake HHH baked.

[Loss]

But that alone doesn't make Dave Taylor a better baker.

 

ETA: Especially if making the cookie is pretty easy relative to the cake.

[El-P]

I wouldn't touch HHH's overcooked shit for anything. The only reason he got his *** on the famous Red Book is because he fucked the Michelin Man.

 

[jdw]

I'm not sure what would be a worse mental image:

 

Trip banging the Michelin Man. Or Trip banging Gael Greene to get a good review in New York magazine.

 

John

 

"To get the NWA Title, Tommy Rich had a menage a trois with Gael Green and James Beard."

-Pro Wrestling Babylon

[jdw]

And yes... Loss, Jerome and I need to stop before we thread dirft Dylan's topic... and Will runs in to smack us down.

 

John

[Mad Dog]

I'm not sure what would be a worse mental image:

 

Trip banging the Michelin Man. Or Trip banging Gael Greene to get a good review in New York magazine.

 

John

 

"To get the NWA Title, Tommy Rich had a menage a trois with Gael Green and James Beard."

-Pro Wrestling Babylon

How about Trips banging Chyna?

[FLIK]

.......the only thing I want to add is nuts to you guys, box cake rules and milk & margerine > vegtable oil & water....

[JerryvonKramer]

Can't wait to read about how Gordon Ramsey's been using his backstage politicking to hold down other chefs. I listened to a shoot interview the other day with an oldtimer, Paul Bocuse, and he was saying that the newer, flashier workers like Heston Blumenthal "are trying to do too much with too many ingredients". Some fans have been turned off by the current product and are turning to alternatives such as "King of Hardcore", Adam Richman.