Ric Flair

[Matt D]

I'll make the general argument for Bock later (it's "He does everything Flair does just as well, and everything Flair doesn't do well far better."). Maybe months later.

[El-P]

I'll make the general argument for Bock later (it's "He does everything Flair does just as well, and everything Flair doesn't do well far better."). Maybe months later.

 

That's an argument I'll like to read, since I'd probably agree in the end.

[JerryvonKramer]

Bock had a different sort of charisma from Flair.

[Timbo Slice]

One thing I'm really unhappy about with all the Flair talk is that it's becoming more and more apparent that people are taking too fine a microscope to him and that while I understand why people want to do it, the weight as to how much they're looking under that microscope is really outweighing everything else that makes Flair a singular talent in the first place. If you look that hard at all the talents, the faults are going to be glaring regardless just because of what's being looked for.

[GOTNW]

 

Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (12/28/85)

Couldn't find much information about this one except that it was a studio match that had lots of chops. I found about 14 minutes of a studio Flair-Garvin match that had lots of chops. Unfortunately it doesn't show the finish so I can properly assess its value but I really liked what I saw, thought it was almost as good as the Starrcade Cage Match. It had the neat brawling I desired but Garvin also used some swank holds in the beginning.

 

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (07/05/86)

Every bit of information I've found about this match on the almighty internet had led me to believe this is the match in question. If that is indeed correct well.......I didn't care much for it. I found it amusing that they used "exposing Flair's ass" as a highspot. There was a spot where Morton went for an O'Connor Roll but Flair hung on to the ropes after which O'Connor did a backward somersault. It's a spot we've all seen about a million times. Here Morton sold it like it was an actual bump which looked incredibly stupid and a lazy means of transition. A lot of mediocre brawling. I liked Morton's Hiptoss/Dropkick combo. **1/2

[BlueGuy]

Off the top of my head, If I'm ranking the Flair/Steamboat complete matches that I've seen it goes:

Clash 6

Meadowlands 1984

WrestleWar 89

Chi-Town Rumble

Landover 1989

WCW Saturday Night 5/94

Spring Stampede 1994

Japan 1982

Boogie Woogie Jam (though my low ranking on this I'm sure has been influenced by the terrible Matt Striker commentary)

WCW Main Event 8/94

 

 

I'm curious, how does everyone else rate the Meadowlands match?

[Tim Cooke]

The 5/17/86 Pro match against Morton is their best singles match. The 7/5 is a cage match if I remember correctly but I didn't like it too much. 4/12 is their WTBS studio match, which has some fun stuff but isn't blow away by any means

[WingedEagle]

 

Offhand, Hansen and Bryan are the only Americans with a chance of eclipsing him. And frankly I don't see Hansen having a chance. But I'm open to it. Curious if anyone has Cena quite that high. Probably the only other domestic worker who may make it to the same ballpark.

Lawler and Funk?

 

 

Funk could be anywhere from top 25 to bottom 25. Can't imagine ranking Lawler.

[Jimmy Redman]

Yeah actually, I think too many people are going to not rank Lawler for him to challenge Flair in the final voting.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

No-one will challenge Flair. He'll take the top spot handily.

[Grimmas]

How could Lawler not be top 100? What more could he do?

 

I understand having him lower than top 5, but not even top 100?

[goodhelmet]

Some people don't appreciate smart wrestling. Nothing you can do about it.

[KrisZ]

Not enough high spots for some people

[Matt D]

One thing I'm really unhappy about with all the Flair talk is that it's becoming more and more apparent that people are taking too fine a microscope to him and that while I understand why people want to do it, the weight as to how much they're looking under that microscope is really outweighing everything else that makes Flair a singular talent in the first place. If you look that hard at all the talents, the faults are going to be glaring regardless just because of what's being looked for.

I think people are doing that with anyone they consider in their top ten.

[WingedEagle]

How could Lawler not be top 100? What more could he do?

 

I understand having him lower than top 5, but not even top 100?

 

Never understood the love. Maybe if I grew up watching him and learned wrestling through WMC TV I'd feel differently. He has a few good matches and brawls. Nothing I couldn't live without and certainly nothing that left any real imprint on me as a fan. Just a guy who was there.

[Coffey]

Not enough high spots for some people

 

...on THIS forum? I don't know about that.

[Timbo Slice]

 

One thing I'm really unhappy about with all the Flair talk is that it's becoming more and more apparent that people are taking too fine a microscope to him and that while I understand why people want to do it, the weight as to how much they're looking under that microscope is really outweighing everything else that makes Flair a singular talent in the first place. If you look that hard at all the talents, the faults are going to be glaring regardless just because of what's being looked for.

I think people are doing that with anyone they consider in their top ten.

 

Not to the extent that people are doing with Flair. It's been mentioned before, but the scrutiny he's being held to is much more than other #1 candidates.

 

Although the recent comments about people on this board not liking high spots and favoring Lawler because of it (or something along those same lines) makes me crack up. I've never seen Flair throw a dropkick in my life. If wrestling was about highspots, Super Dragon would be #1 and the Motor City Machine Guns or Blood Generation would be the #1 tag team.

 

My point is similar to what Loss said months ago when the scrutiny got heavy in the first place. People will talk so much about the negative aspects of a wrestler that the positive aspects that stand out much more get glossed over. It's oversaturation and it's overexposure to an extent, but it also reeks of people trying to cut the others down just because. It's not constructive, and unless people are constructive and detailed about their criticisms about somebody, I'm not going to pay them any mind whatsoever.

[WingedEagle]

If I missed something similar in the first 12 pages my bad. But, if you were to point someone in the direction of 5 Flair matches to make the case for him as #1 where would you go? We're obviously talking about someone who's not really familiar with his work pre-monday night wars era and the tribute videos that came with it. Presumably don't want to load it up with 60 minute classics but I want this person to come away understanding why he belongs in the discussion.

[PhilTLL]

Try any of these and tell me what you think:

 

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Ric Flair (6/8/83)

Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (12/28/85)

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (07/05/86)

Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (9/26/87)

Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (2/25/90)

 

These were picked with the express purpose of showing Flair's range, but they're all tremendous matches IMO. The most accessible Flair/Steamboat, for novitiates, is Chi-Town Rumble (2/20/89).

[goodhelmet]

If nothing else, what you could say is that Flair's detractors and Flair's supporters are more vocal than for any other wrestler. Flair is an important guy, no doubt.

[WingedEagle]

 

Try any of these and tell me what you think:

 

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Ric Flair (6/8/83)

Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (12/28/85)

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (07/05/86)

Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (9/26/87)

Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (2/25/90)

These were picked with the express purpose of showing Flair's range, but they're all tremendous matches IMO. The most accessible Flair/Steamboat, for novitiates, is Chi-Town Rumble (2/20/89).

 

 

Thanks for the reminder. I haven't watched the long matches with Steamboat from '89 in a while, but feel like the Jumbo match is more accessible at that length for a rookie. Good call, Parv.

[PhilTLL]

The Jumbo match is great, but if this person is open to hour matches already, don't sleep on Clash 6 (the only genuinely long one of the '89 series, BTW). I've never watched it with anybody who didn't get excited. Still, Chi-Town is the most indelible.

[jdw]

If nothing else, what you could say is that Flair's detractors and Flair's supporters are more vocal than for any other wrestler. Flair is an important guy, no doubt.

 

Exactly.

 

As an analogy, no one spends this much time on the greatness / non-greatness of Cowens, Ewing, Robinson, or Reed. Even at the level of Moses or Hakeem, people don't spend this much time.

 

Wilt and Shaq?

 

People, both pro and con, work their asses off trying to figure out where they rank.

 

Or in a wrestling example: Shawn. Lots of us think Shawn was overrated, but he also was important enough that both sides spent a thousands of words walking through it.

[goodhelmet]

Keep the BBall in the BBall thread John!

 

Just went back and looked at some other wrestlers being talked about. Lawler... 3 pages. Jumbo... 6 pages. Dory Funk... 3 pages and if Parv wasn't on the board, it would probably be about 3 comments total. Because of the high amount of visibility, everyone has an opinion on the guy.

[El-P]

So yeah, I'm watching a bunch of WCCW, and here are some Flair matches showing up. Most of them against Kerry, but here I get this match against Terry Gordy, on January 11, 85. Gordy is a babyface at this point, turning after showing respect toward Kerry von Erich after an excellent Texas Death match against Killer Khan. So there we get a rather short Flair match. Flair's pre-match antics with Sunshine are pretty classic. The match, on the other hand, is not. This is the typical exemple of Flair forcing his fomula and spots on a guy who just wouldn't work that way. Gordy is a big guy crazy bump taker and first class brawler.

 

Stuff Gordy almost never do : press slam, figure four.

Stuff Gordy is very good at : crazy brawling, big bumps.

 

What do we get here ?

 

Well, Flair first seems to want to work on Gordy's arm. Then tries a piledriver and seemingly works toward the neck with some restholds headlock then a few neck twists. Then finally gets to a piledriver. Ok. Then goes…. to the figure four of course, despite not having worked on Gordy's knee one bit. And of course, it gets reversed into a badly applied small package, because that's a token Flair spot. Flair is a figure four specialist, or so we're told, but everyone can counter him when he tries to apply it. Cool Flair spot that pops the crowd. Dumb psychology when you spent the last few minutes of match working on your opponent's neck. Anyhoo.

 

Then we get Gordy doing what ? Well, Applying the figure four of course. Because that's what Gordy does in a match usually…. Yawn. Likewise press slams. He does it twice to Flair here. Again : cool Flair spots to pop the crowd. Press slams ? Ok, Gordy's a big dude, that makes sense, although it really never did it to a Von Erich boy when he was the Freebird monster and workhorse. Let's say that's the way Gordy works as a face (of course, it's really not, but hey, gotta give Flair some flack here). Figure four ? Okaaaaaay, let's say it's a revenge spot, because Flair tried it earlier. So it's actual… good psychology ? Of course, that's pushing it way beyond the realm of match analysis toward the "let's make shit up to justify every Flair spot". We know it's just a Flair spot, really. And Gordy isn't using the figure four, like ever. Still, kayfabewise, Gordy the big goofy looking brawler is a better technician than Ric Flair. Okay, enough justification, we know it's just a damn Flair spot. Everybody else does it, so why not Gordy ?

 

And then, we get a shit finish with an awkward back suplex, with Flair using the ropes with one feet while the four shoulders looked flat on the mat. Gordy thinks he won, but Flair really did. You know, lot of Flair matches had those kind of anticlimatic finishes. Really not a great finish guy (and don't tell me it's because of the 80's or WCCW. The Von Erich and the Freebirds had tons of hot finishes to their matches).

 

Gordy vs Killer Khan was much better because both worked the gimmick very well and told a story. This was just Flair doing a bunch of his cool spots with Gordy until a flat finish. We didn't really see Gordy beat the shit out of Flair like he should, or Flair actively killing Gordy's leg trying to put down the big guy, with Gordy doing his Terry Funk on growth hormones selling. It was a good little match with a bunch of token spots which really had no meaning apart from "and now, for your viewing pleasure, the Ric Flair show".

 

But nothing new really. This probably has been written 20 years ago already.

 

Flair would make my top 20.