Randy Savage

[Matt D]

Savage/Garvin Cage.

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvc125_icw-randy-savage-vs-ronnie-garvin_sport

[BillThompson]

Savage's final year or so is definitely a mark against him, but it's also a time period when he managed to get a legitimately good match out of Dennis Rodman.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Savage's final year or so is definitely a mark against him

See, I don't get this line of thinking at all, man. Do we consider Babe Ruth's last year with the Boston Braves as a mark against his greatness? Do we consider Street Fighter as a mark against the greatness of Raul Julia? Of course not.

[fxnj]

For me it's more his WCW run in general not being as good at it should be. He has the Flair matches early in the run and the DDP feud but outside that there's a lot of other matches that feel very formulaic and uninspired, like the match with Giant at Fall Brawl 1996. The Hogan world title main events were also pretty bad, as mentioned.

[Johnny Sorrow]

So basically, as an older guy in WCW he had at least two awesome programs. That's pretty impressive. This whole "but his late stage stuff isn't as good as his peek so it affects their greatness" deal going on round these parts is wacky. Like it'd be better if guys retired early or croaked young. By that thinking, you should consider people's rookie and early green years against them.

[Loss]

For the record, I agree. I know sarcasm doesn't translate well to the Internet sometimes.

[Johnny Sorrow]

For the record, I agree. I know sarcasm doesn't translate well to the Internet sometimes.

Nah, bro. I got your sarcasm right away and it was fine, fine work .

[ohtani's jacket]

What did he do that was that great from '93 to the time he retired? The Flair and DDP feuds?

[Johnny Sorrow]

Yeah, and those were awesome. And he's the fucking Macho Man. And who cares about the stuff that wasn't great? Why does that offset the peak great stuff? Like I said, if that matters then his rookie days as The Spider should count against him. And that'd be fucking dumb.

[ohtani's jacket]

I dunno. I just wanted to know what Savage did that was good. I don't care about any of that other stuff.

[PeteF3]

I don't know how many **** classics it produced but the Flair feud, once Angelo got attacked, was one of the few truly emotionally intense feuds WCW had during the Hulkamania Era. It was instantly a breath of fresh air in an unbelievably sterile promotion. I so don't want to derail the disucssion, but getting fans emotionally invested in a match is a part of wrestling and I think that has to count for something.

[Matt D]

My biggest problem with his WCW run is his string of throwaway tv matches. This is the guy who was frothing at the mouth to get back into the ring regularly on WWF TV in 94, and when he gets his shot, he wrestles some of the most interesting and diverse wrestlers possible (be it a guy like Finlay or the hugely underrated Pittman), he gives them the whole match, hits a bodyslam and his elbow and that's it. Over and over and over again. It's maddening.

[FedEx227]

What did he do that was that great from '93 to the time he retired? The Flair and DDP feuds?

 

That's about all I can really name that was good but both were legitimately great and Flair/Savage as we know started WCW's upward momentum on the house shows. The DDP feud made Dallas a legit babyface star and were some progressive (by WCW standards) matches/stories.

 

As others have said, I'm not going to count his last two years as meaning much. He was on his last legs and probably shouldn't have been in the ring anymore. Ruth on the Braves or Mays on the Mets. It doesn't cloud the greatness before that.

[shoe]

Savage is a guy who will do well on my ballot. He was a good wrestler . He had good matches with Lawler, Ronnie Garvin, Steamboat, Santana , Hogan, Warrior, Bret , Dibiase, Roberts, Flair, DDP , and others. For people who say he didn''t have great t.v matches it's possible since it's known he likes to lay out his matches beforehand , the chaos of WCW might have forced him into calling the match in the ring . Thus that was the result we got.

 

With that said I think their has been way too much talk of wrestlers post peak talk that it's almost become a bad joke at this point. I think it should be weighed in on. Though in the grand scheme of things it should be one of those if A and B are equal this might be a tie breaker.

[goodhelmet]

I have been saying that all along.

[El-P]

To be fair, my buddy Tony pointed out to me that Savage had the most amazing ring attire ever for his 1/4/00 NJ Dome match, easily one of the bets entrances of Savage's career. If you factor in ring attire, Flair had long since passed the expiration point of WTF ring attire. Savage was killing it in one of his last matches ever...

 

It's wrestling. We should always factor ring attire. That's why Randy Savage will remains one of my all-time favourite ever. If you add the glamour factor of Liz (going over more than ten years and looking better with the time) and Queen Sherri, the overall presentation is the greatest ever. If you add the character and promos. Well…

 

Yeah, Savage had a terrible final year (with Nash booking. Argh, the nightmares of last year's experience are coming back). But he had at least one great segment on Thunder where he confronts Rey Mysterio Jr. That one was awesome. The great feud that could have been if WCW had some balls and brain left.

[thebrainfollower]

Savage is in my top 5 of all time if not the US GOAT. Sure his final "year" (which was really only about 3 months) was pretty bad but Ric Flair didn't exactly have a great last TEN years in his career. Savage's high impact style just could not be done with his body at that age and once he figured that out, he retired with a ton of money, married his school sweetheart and left his legacy intact rather than having a whole thread about the humiliating things he does.

 

To heck with it Randy Savage is my GOAT US.

[Grimmas]

People are forgetting the awesome Dennis Rodman match in his final year.

[DR Ackermann]

Man, the more Savage I watch the less I see a case for him. I know it's not all about having great matches but there are so many nothing matches from him in 80s WWF. I know the style isn't known for producing loads of great matches but that's where the bulk of his resume is, isn't it? I don't see Santana on the same level that a lot of people seem to, but I'm liking his mid-late 80s stuff a lot more than Savage's. I'm not writing him off my ballot but at this point I don't see how he could be a top 50 guy at all when there are so many great wrestlers out there.

[benjaminkicks]

I love Savage, and I expect he'll do well on my ballot, but I'm not sure I fully see a case for him being in my top 10, let alone #1.

 

I probably need to watch more of his pre-WWF work, and need to do some rewatching of his WCW stuff, but I always felt that the bulk of his good work was from about '87 to like '92. That's a relatively short period of time, considering the other guys that a lot of people are considering for their #1. This really goes back to the "Peak vs. Career" thing, and I like to put value in both, but I'm not sure Macho's overall career stacks up enough compared to some others for me to consider him for my top 10.

 

And I fall somewhere in the middle of the "Great matches vs. How a guy works" debate, but I think it's hard to deny that Savage is a little lacking in number of all time classic matches. Not sure how much stuff like that will really play into my rankings, but I think it's something to be considered at least.

 

I'm still very far from being done with this list, and plenty of things could change before the deadline, but I expect Savage will fall somewhere in the 30s or 20s on my list.

[Danish Dynamite]

Savage is as close to a complete package as any I've ever seen, next to maybe only Flair. He could end up anywhere in my top 5. In the weird mix of storytelling, sport, violence for kids, childishness for adults, blood, sex, fun, aggression, nostalgia and all around awesomeness that is wrestling, Randy Savage is the true total package. The man was pure art! Johnny Sorrow said it best: He's the fucking Macho Man! Oh yeah!

[Parties]

I don’t mean this morbidly, but he’s a guy whose stock has risen since he died. There are other factors: the Memphis set, Network/24-7 subscribers rewatching early Nitros and MSG shows, presence on YouTube, continued merch. Ten years ago, he wasn’t someone who obsessive online fans talked about as a top 100 elite worker. He’s particularly great at MSG and the Mid-South Coliseum, and I agree with the idea raised earlier that live crowd engagement seems to have been his specialty. I think he was great and that the rediscovery is deserved. Being such a fun character helps his case a lot. Purely as a bell-to-bell worker, I think he’s a questionable pick. Steamboat at WM3 is very overrated. But then you see something like their match at Maple Leaf Gardens and it's clear that he was great. But I need to watch more of his prime mid-80s stuff and his Flair feud in WCW.

He may well end up on my list (he’s on the first draft), but I could see him falling off in favor of workhorses elsewhere. Will put it best in raising the question of fond childhood memories vs. better in-ring workers discovered in adulthood. He’s probably one of the five biggest American stars of all time (him, Rock, Austin, Hulk, Flair?) and Flair’s the only other one on that mountaintop who would make my 100.

[Childs]

Ten years ago, he wasn’t someone who obsessive online fans talked about as a top 100 elite worker.

 

 

He finished 44th in the Smarkschoice poll.

[C.S.]

The guy had a final year (a final two years actually, as 1998 was also pretty brutal) which ended his career on a major whimper.

 

His final stretch sucked, yeah, but at the same time, I don't think he overstayed his welcome. I know those two statements seem incongruous with each other, but if you think about it, people were still pining for him to come back - to the WWE (TNA didn't, doesn't, and never will mean anything). In the end, Randy Savage left people wanting more, disappeared completely, and retained that Macho mystique even in his final years.

 

Also, his underwhelming final stretch coincided with WCW falling off a cliff, so I don't think anyone really holds that against Macho - I certainly don't. Plus, even then, he was apparently responsible for bringing Mona (Molly Holly) into WCW, which eventually led to her WWE run. That alone makes up for whatever bad matches he might've had in his twilight years.

[Parties]

 

Ten years ago, he wasn’t someone who obsessive online fans talked about as a top 100 elite worker.

 

 

He finished 44th in the Smarkschoice poll.

 

I stand corrected, and should really only speak for myself in raising how his legend has grown in recent years. Though the SC consensus was rarely in line with my take, and is different from what followed on DVDVR/WKO/Segunda Caida, which I'm more familiar with than the SC stuff. Maybe it was just that I wasn't seeing people his runs of WWF and WCW back then? I just don't recall people discussing him as an exceptional worker who they were watching and appreciating at the time. But yes, his best known matches (esp. vs Warrior and Steamboat) also did well in the SC "Best WWE matches" poll that I did submit a ballot to years later, and Savage-Steamboat from Maple Leaf made my list. I think the Hogan-Savage match from MSG '86 where Savage bleeds a ton made my list as well.

 

While many selections from it are very on point, and it's an interesting arifact, that SC list does look dated today. Which is understandable for a list from mid-2006. #14: Dynamite Kid. #15: Hokuto. #16: Austin. #27: Ohtani. #31: Ozaki. #33: Hase. #46: HBK. #53: Mutoh. #62: Ultimo Dragon. #68: Sayama. #72: Chono. #91: Toshiyo Yamada. #93: Tommy Rogers. Highest luchador is Santito at #20, and by my count luchadors only made up 13% of the wrestlers on ballots, with most of them at the bottom and coming from stunninggrover and pantherwagner as the high votes.