Mick Foley

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[BillThompson]

Foley is going to be an interesting case, because I really do see the argument for him being top 100 or 50 of all time. He had plenty of great matches and before his body started letting him down he was the kind of wrestler you could count on to give an all out performance regardless of venue, opponent, or placement on the card. What really makes Mick shine is his ability to have different types of matches with different wrestlers where his base approach remained much the same. As Dude Love he had some great comedy matches, of particular note is his MOTYC against HHH at One Night Only, where he was able to generate great crowd interest through comedy spots. As Mankind he was the crazy bumper and madman who then turned into a beloved sympathy machine. Finally there's his Cactus Jack persona, which is my favorite, and the forebearer to his time as plain Mick Foley, where he was all three personas at the same time encompassing a very complete pro wrestler.

[stomperspc]

Foley is borderline for me but trending up recently watching the 1997 and 1998 year books.

 

So much of success in wrestling is timing. For a variety of reasons largely out of his control, I don't think Foley ever found that perfect storm situation where he was in a promotion with visibility, being pushed hard, and still physically able to go. You see flashes in WCW of what he could have been with a more concentrated push while he was (arguably) at his physical peak, but he never got that extended push. His ECW run was what it was. The booking of him in WWF was stop and start that he never got into that position to really go on a huge run. By the time he fell into that role in late 1998, he was broken down to the point where he couldn't produce to the level in the ring needed to be considered a true top guy. I do need to go back and watch the 2000 Triple H matches at some point.

 

Also, I always thought he was way overrated as a promo but I am really enjoying his late summer stuff as Mankind. Once they stopped switching him back and forth and let him roll in the crazy, child-like Mankind role, he start delivering great understated promos.

[Timbo Slice]

I think he's a completely underrated worker. One of the things he did better than almost anybody was lay out matches in a way to grab the crowd's attention, regardless of what you thought of his nutty spots. I think he has a shot at making this list for me.

[Loss]

The Michaels-Mankind match at Mind Games is made even more impressive when you consider that they didn't do a single hot nearfall, yet managed to keep the crowd engaged for 27 minutes.

[Timbo Slice]

That is always my point when talking about Hokuto/Kandori 4/2/93, too. First near fall in that match doesn't come until 18 minutes in. Sometimes, you just know how to get the crowd into it without the need for kicking out of stuff.

[WingedEagle]

While we're at it, same goes for Suzuki/Tanahashi from 10/12, which also didn't have juice going for it.

[goodhelmet]

I like Foley. I don't love Foley. Won't make my list even if he made my Smarkschoice list.

[Shining Wiz]

I said Lawler would be the least athletic guy likely to make my list.....but I think I was wrong. It will be Foley.

 

I try to ignore almost everything he did post-first retirement, but his run in WCW would almost be enough to secure a spot. He stood out as someone who understood to take what he could and make it mean something, even if that something was getting hit with inanimate objects. Had good to great matches with every one from the Bpnasty Boys to Vader to Abdullah to Orndorff to Sting.

 

The ECW run is light on good matches, but his tag with Whipwrreck was fun in telling the story of Mikey's evolution.

 

The Mankind run got several good matches out of Taker, and you could argue those set the stage for Taker's style over the last portion of his career. The Mindgames match with Michaels is a stand out, and add in good brawls with HHH.

 

Definitely a contender, in spite of quickly devolving into a hideously annoying character in retirement.

[Johnny Sorrow]

The Michaels-Mankind match at Mind Games is made even more impressive when you consider that they didn't do a single hot nearfall, yet managed to keep the crowd engaged for 27 minutes.

I was in that crowd and it was amazing . One of my favorite live wrestling experiences.

[Superstar Sleeze]

The Sandman Texas Death Match from Double Tables is one of the most disturbing and unprofessional things I have ever seen. It would be one thing if Mick apologized for the match and basically said you should not watch this because what I did was wrong. Instead, he puts it on his DVD and sells at some sort of clusterfuck. O and look for when I get frustrated because I cannot keep the dumbfuck down because he was knocked out. Gawf. Gawf.

 

Hey Mick, you fucking moron, why was he knocked out? Did it have anything to do with the fact you hit really fucking hard in the head with a frying pan? Then dipshit while he is wandering aimlessly you have to set up spots yourself to basically put yourself in a position of vulnerability and never occurs to you something is really wrong with him. Of course not! So you proceed to hit really hard in the head with the Singapore Cane and then hurl a chair at his head so it collars him. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU, ASSHOLE!!!!

I will probably still vote for Mick, but that was fucking disgusting. I just need a place to vent.

[PeteF3]

Not that it excuses it or justifies it, but if it makes you feel any better, Sandman thinks that match is hilarious (there's a shoot where he's downing beer watching it with the interviewer while laughing his ass off).

[Superstar Sleeze]

He laughs because he hurts. He laughs because he hurts.

[BigBadMick]

Enjoyed Dylan's run through on the podcast, and reminded me that Foley contributed bucketloads in the 90s. Always took great pride in his work. That's worth a great deal to me.

[Parties]

The Foley podcast conversation was interesting. I don't think you can hold him responsible for his bad imitators, but I can absolutely understand revisiting his work and thinking, "This isn't what I want wrestling to be anymore, and it set a bad precedent." If Foley makes my list, it will be on the strength of '88-'98, while ignoring as much of what came after as possible. I really love the first half of his career as territorial bump freak, and the evolution of the Cactus Jack character as he found his comedy in WCW/ECW. He's also a guy who works as hard in irrelevant undercard stuff with Mike Shaw as he is in main events with Shawn Michaels. Stuff like the Tarzan Goto match did a lot in the last few years to remind me of how cool he could be.

[peachchaos]

I like Foley. I'll keep watching his matches until I've seen them all, he's just one of those guys for me.

 

I don't see him as this great wrestler, by any means. He never had one really great run, but he damn sure had his moments and a handful of great matches along the way.

 

Foley's a bottom 50 guy for me since he wasn't good every time he wrestled, but had some good enough stuff to make him an all timer.

[Jimmy Redman]

Foley is probably a guy who has the highest highs and lowest lows in terms of guys that I'm looking at, short of assholes like Hunter or Angle.

 

Foley's biggest strength, and biggest weakness, is that he cared so damn much.

 

It's his biggest strength because here's some kid with just about no athletic talent in his body, the furthest thing from a superstar look, nothing that screamed anything on paper, and through his smarts, creativity, willingness to destroy his body and sheer force of will, made himself into one of the most unlikely wrestling superstars. Just about everything that got Foley where he was is inside his head, more so than almost any other big star in wrestling, and that's a testament to how brilliant a wrestling mind he was. He's really a remarkable wrestling achievement.

 

It is also his biggest strength because the level to which he cared and wanted to do good work constantly pushed him creatively. As a result you have his effective and well thought out promos, you have his intricate character development (particularly in WWF with the three faces), you have storylines that go way outside the box, and you have those stories played out to maximum effect in the ring.

 

Things like the simple idea of being one guy with three distinct alter egos that all walk, talk and work differently, and making that work and be credible. Or like the sit down interviews with JR that went "behind the curtain" and used his real life story in such a compelling and appropriate way. Or like the Vader match on Saturday Night where the hook is that he was genuinely getting beat up for real and feeling real pain, in a way that you didn't really see in the Big Two, and then re-creating that sense of legitimate danger almost a decade later with the big HIAC bumps. Or like the feud with Orton, where the story was him backing out of a match and being called a coward for months on end - in his book Foley says that he's the only big face who could get away with acting cowardly like that, and I think he's right. Foley has so many layers to him with all of his characters, so many different characters to draw upon for varying emotions and situations, and thus has more depth to him than almost anyone else. Which allows him to go places that other guys simply can't.

 

When it all comes together he can create something truly memorable. Hell in a Cell. The Austin matches, particularly Over the Edge. Hunter at the Rumble. The Orton match is incredible. The Edge match. The Shawn match, which stands out so much in so many ways - Foley working 'straight', Shawn working 'snug', the lack of nearfalls, the length, etc. Sting at Beach Blast is probably the peak of his younger, uber-bumping Cactus days. I might have to revisit the Rock matches. Plus random Raw matches where they go balls out like vs Funk or vs Hunter.

 

His desire is also his biggest weakness because he puts so much effort and thought and so much of himself into his work, that when it doesn't all come together he can go really far off the rails, coming off as missing the mark at best, and bloated, self-indulgent or dangerously suicidal at worst.

 

That Vader match, for instance, is something I don't care much for. It's interesting, knowing how much he was eating it, but at the same time...the fact that you're eating it for real doesn't necessarily make for a good wrestling match. The early forearms are exciting and gruesome, but it's sort of a mess of a match after that. It just makes me think that you're kind of stupid to willingly let a guy break your nose just to have a slightly more impressive match. Same thing with the Rock I Quit, he's trying to create this emotional, heartfelt, real-life hook but really, he's just sacrificing his real-life health and his brain so the camera can get good shots of his family legitimately freaking out at him killing himself for a wrestling match.

 

In later years he turned more towards creative self-indulgence. The Flair match being a great example, where he had this blood feud with Ric full of "you said mean things in your book" insider crap, and then they have this bloody I Quit match and the finish is based on Foley's real life but incredibly irrelevant friendship with Melina. It wasn't a logical conclusion to a blood feud between two old stars, it was just Foley sitting in his car thinking "How can I get my friendship with Melina on TV?" And he does that a lot - having the thought of "how can I get that funny thing my kid just said on TV?" and working backwards from there, which I'm sure amuses him to no end but makes for a lot of head scratching for a viewer who isn't in on the joke. At his worst he's one of the most painfully self-indulgent performers (forget wrestlers) I've ever seen.

 

He's sort of the ultimate 'behind the curtain" wrestler, he's written so much about his career and thought process, and he's such a good writer that you read his books and want to watch his matches to see what he describes in his books play out. But the fact that there's a real life story behind a match doesn't always make it good pro wrestling.

 

Having said all that, his highs are really high and I do admire that level of commitment to creativity and the balls required to think outside the box so much as a wrestler. He's a truly unique worker, and he'll be somewhere in the middle of my ballot I think.

[Boss Rock]

@elliott once referred to Foley as the "smartest dumb wrestler" and he was spot on. He put his body through an obscene amount of punishment while construcing some pretty incredible matches. While a lot of his best matches had weapons or were No DQ, considering how many "meh" plunder matches you see nowadays, it's clear that simply using weapons in a match or taking a crazy bump doesn't automatically make a match great. It's also funny to see how guys like Orton or Triple H never reached the heights they did with Foley in similar match types. He just had such a great sense of creating chaos. And for all the stupid bumps he took, they were done to make his opponents look like all-stars. He's been in my preliminary top 30 for a bit and while I'm not sure that's where he'll end up, he's a pretty safe lock.

[Microstatistics]

Another guy I ranked way too low in 2016. Definite contender for best bumper ever (even if he overdid it at times). But his creativity and ability to construct smart yet memorable matches were probably his biggest strengths. For instance, many of his big 2000s matches share similar themes but were worked in fresh, unique ways. Top 25 contender.

[elliott]

I ranked Foley 61st and I feel good about that. He's out of that 80-140 range of might make it or not and is closer to that 40-60 range where he's pretty comfortably safe. In the last 5 years, I've watched a decent amount of 90s Foley and I gotta say he went from being someone I was no longer interested in to being reminded of why I thought he was so awesome in the first place.  I LOVE the best Foley stuff whether its the Dude Love match, the brawls with the Nasty Boys, the preposterous garbage stuff against Terry FUnk. The 10/94 match against Sabu is one of my favorite US matches of the decade. Man I fucking love the Sting matches too and I almost forgot about those. I could go on and on. He has probably the shitiest offense of anyone that will definitely make my list and I think his in match screetching is one of the most obnoxious things any great wrestler regularly did. But, he was a brilliant performer and I will always have a place for him. 

[Cap]

I just watched his A&E doc. Like many of these, nothing new in there, but it reminded me of just how good a person he is. Jesus... is there a better person in wrestling?  (the Sandman match Sleeze takes issue with not withstanding)

 

Anyway, Foley is a lock for my list. He is someone I have a little trouble demarcating the "in ring work" from just who he is as a wrestler and his philosophy. He is smart, giving, crazy, creative, personable, and maximized his skills in a business that didn't always reward his skills at the most public and lucrative levels in the US.  Some of that stuff is pretty tangible in the ring, but much of it is most easily seen outside. The difficulty will be trying to focus on his in ring work in a way that is fair to everyone else and loyal to the project. Even still, I think he is perhaps a top 50 wrestler.  He ranks highly for me in a lot of categories including... top matches, big/memorable moments, having folks' best match, selling (in his case just actually getting hurt), and psychology. I agree that his offense isn't great in the traditional sense, but - going back to making the most out of what he had - he often made it look convincing against much bigger more convincing looking athletes.  That is a skill he deserves credit for. I think he has some deceptive versatility as well. There is a thick layer of ultra violence in most of his matches, especially his most praised matches, but he thrived in different settings and with a wide range of opponents. Maybe adaptability is the better term. Regardless, he has success in a variety of places against a plethora of opponents and that isn't something you can say about everyone.

I think of Foley as the real MVP of the Attitude Era. Would HHH, Austin, Rock, and Taker be stars without their feuds with Foley? Yes.  Would they be the stars they are now without those feuds? I really don't think so (but we will never know). He had crucial feuds and matches with all the tip-top guys of that era and many in the following. To put it in a football metaphor. Austin and Rock might have been the QB and RB that scored all the points that season, but Foley was the LT working in the trenches and and making sure everyone had time and space to shine.

[elliott]

I love Foley but I think its safe to say Austin still becomes Austin without the Dude Love matches and Rock still would have gone on to become the biggest movie star in the world too had he feuded with someone else. Not saying Foley didn't play an important role in getting the Rock over, but Rock was/is just special and was going to be a huge star no matter what. Is Undertaker the mega star because of the Foley feud in the mid 90s or because of the enduring gimmick & WrestleMania streak?

Other than Vince & Steph he did more to make HHH than anyone, I can't argue that. But I also count that as a negative (not really those matches are amazing)

I think one of the bigger points in Foley's favor is that as a washed up shell of himself he managed to have the only great/interesting/timeless Randy Orton match despite Orton having another 15+ years & all the opportunities in the world to top it and never coming close. 

Edit
I also wanted to throw some more love at the Sting matches because we all said "interesting" more times than we said "Sting" in this thread. Sting is someone who I think was better than his old reputation but not exactly great. Lacking in truly great matches except the Vader series and the Cactus matches. There's not a Flair vs Sting match better than either Sting vs Cactus match. The famous Vader trio is Sting's career achievement. But the Cactus matches and that DDP Nitro match are the next best things Sting ever did. Its a credit to Foley that he was able to get such great matches out of guy who had plenty of opportunities but rarely ever hit that level with anyone else. 

[Reel]

This point came up in the 2016 GWE podcasts, I think it is one of the Hales brothers' talking points, but I like it a lot so I'm going to borrow it for this thread. Foley because of his look and physical ability, basically invented a style outside of anything you would call traditionally good wrestling, where he could be a great wrestler.

It's part of the reason, most of it really, that I think he's a tough guy to rank. He's got a lot of great matches and a ton of huge moments, but then I think back to what stands out about them and it stuff like the time one of the Nasty Boys hit him in the head with a shovel really hard. That's not to discount the way he constructs his matches, which is the real thing that separates him from guys who came later and tried to replicate his style, but the thing that makes most Foley match stand out is usually that he got hit real hard or hit something really hard. 

I think he'll probably make my top 100, but he's one of the guys who has a huge range of where he could fall. 

[Cap]

6 hours ago, elliott said:

I love Foley but I think its safe to say Austin still becomes Austin without the Dude Love matches and Rock still would have gone on to become the biggest movie star in the world too had he feuded with someone else. Not saying Foley didn't play an important role in getting the Rock over, but Rock was/is just special and was going to be a huge star no matter what. Is Undertaker the mega star because of the Foley feud in the mid 90s or because of the enduring gimmick & WrestleMania streak?

Other than Vince & Steph he did more to make HHH than anyone, I can't argue that. But I also count that as a negative (not really those matches are amazing)

Edit
I also wanted to throw some more love at the Sting matches because we all said "interesting" more times than we said "Sting" in this thread. Sting is someone who I think was better than his old reputation but not exactly great. Lacking in truly great matches except the Vader series and the Cactus matches. There's not a Flair vs Sting match better than either Sting vs Cactus match. The famous Vader trio is Sting's career achievement. But the Cactus matches and that DDP Nitro match are the next best things Sting ever did. Its a credit to Foley that he was able to get such great matches out of guy who had plenty of opportunities but rarely ever hit that level with anyone else. 

Like I said, they are all stars, but I just don't know what happens when you take such an important piece out of the puzzle.  Austin is still probably the hottest thing in wrestling history and the Rock is still probably a mega movie star yes... but it is tough to say how the paths change and if there becomes any kind of qualitative difference in their fame or how long it takes or anything. 

The larger point (the ACTUAL point) is that he was crucial part in each one of their careers and when they tell the story of each of their careers, there is a really important chapter about how their stock raised as the result of a Foley feud. He gave a lot of people the gritty match that proved they were tough and added to or really gave them a different kind of legitimacy. That is a very particular kind of thing that a lot of companies try to do for their "top guys". Foley was automatic.

As for HHH... The Rumble match is great.

I think the Sting matches massive lines the on foley resume. that is how I more or less agree on how to GENERALLY rate sting. Even if someone wanted to argue for some of his other matches such as the Flair match, Foley provided something unique within his career.

[Cap]

1 hour ago, Reel said:

 

It's part of the reason, most of it really, that I think he's a tough guy to rank. He's got a lot of great matches and a ton of huge moments, but then I think back to what stands out about them and it stuff like the time one of the Nasty Boys hit him in the head with a shovel really hard. That's not to discount the way he constructs his matches, which is the real thing that separates him from guys who came later and tried to replicate his style, but the thing that makes most Foley match stand out is usually that he got hit real hard or hit something really hard. 

 

Sorry, should have made this one post

This I think is a huge part of his case. How many people are willing to take a beating, especially in the wake of Foley's career? How many of them are able to construct and physically develop their characters in the match like Foley? I agree that it is really hard to look past the fact that the highlights are often him taking a beating, but Foley's greatest strength was his mind for wrestling and storytelling. It is just hard to see the forest for the trees sometimes, especially when those trees are very preposterous acts of violence.