Money in the Bank 2015... Live as it Happens

[Grimmas]

Is John Cena doing the Code Red akin to Terry Funk doing the moonsault in the 90's?

[El-P]

No. Terry Funk doing a sloppy moonsault in his 50's fit his character of being totally insane.

John Cena doing a stupid indy finisher while still not being able to apply his own finishing hold in a convincing way after 15 years is both cute and idiotic. The kind of stuff Kurt Angle would be murdered for around here. But hey, if Ric Flair was doing Shoji Nakamaki in 2006, I guess Cena can do RVD in 2015.

[Grimmas]

No. Terry Funk doing a sloppy moonsault in his 50's fit his character of being totally insane.

 

John Cena doing a stupid indy finisher while still not being able to apply his own finishing hold in a convincing way after 15 years is both cute and idiotic. The kind of stuff Kurt Angle would be murdered for around here. But hey, if Ric Flair was doing Shoji Nakamaki in 2006, I guess Cena can do RVD in 2015.

 

I meant both guys re-inventing themselves later in their career.

 

That second paragraph I disagree with every word you wrote. Cena's finisher is perfectly fine and is over. Why does it have to be super crisp? Him throwing out a Code Red in an attempt to upstage the indie star makes perfect sense in the context of the match. The difference between that and Angle is that Angle always wrestled like that. If Angle started doing old school selling and slowing down and based his matches on matwork and selling than he would get praised.

 

What was Cena doing that was similar to being like RVD? RVD had cools spots that weren't connected into a match. Cena did some cool spots that work well in the context of the match and made the match better.

[cheapshot]

I am glad I didn't stay up at watch that show live, without Cena / Owens II that would of been a big thumbs down for me. Joe Gagne said it best on twitter when he said "Cena vs. Owens not only carried the show, it's carrying the company right now."

[El-P]

Him throwing out a Code Red in an attempt to upstage the indie star makes perfect sense in the context of the match.

 

This is way too meta for me if this is seriously the kind of "storytelling" they were aiming for.

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Cena. I also find it funny that all of a sudden, Cena busting out one of the most idiotic indieriffic offensive move of the last 15 years gets praised. It's certainly good for the WTF aspect of it though.

[Benbeeach]

I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of pro wrestling moves, because none of them make sense, but a Yoshi Tonic, which isn't a Canadian Destroyer, is a momentum based sunset flip, that while they botched (had to be a botch, right?) was actually made better because it actually looked like Steen was fighting it off, and Cena got it off anyway. Steen traps Cena's legs, Cena flips through, his momentum takes Steen over into a pin. It's spectacular, let's just all agree and call it *unique* for a Cena match, but isn't completely asinine, or idiotic, or a Canadian Destroyer.

Alright, moving on

[CodySave]

Haven't had a chance to watch whole show yet, but thoughts on what I've seen.

 

MITB

- I really enjoyed this. I actually think it may be one of my fav MITBs, if not outright No. 1. From a psychology standpoint of "get up the ladder and get the belt", this is may be one of the smartest MITBs they've ever put together.

 

I loved that Kofi immediately took a ladder and started climbing when the other 6 brawled at the bell, followed by everyone trying to win as quick as possible. I can't stand it when it takes 5-10 mins before any attempt is made to climb and this was the total opposite. Think about it - this match is infinitely more dangerous to your future health & earnings potential...knowing that, why wouldn't you try to climb/win as quick as possible.

 

I really thought this version of MITB was laid out substantially different than most - less about crazy spots that limit your chances and more about guys trying to land proven moves to advance his position. Even the crazy spots that did happen were done in a logical way to advance Wrestler X trying to climb.

 

I had actually predicted either Roman or Kofi winning, so I totally bought into Kofi almost winning when New Day came out.

 

Sheamus winning was a big surprise, and I don't really understand a Wyatt vs Reigns feud - pulls Reigns away from his natural rivalry with Rollins. They continue down this track and they're giving Reigns the Luger 88-89 treatment in regards to the championship.

 

Owens vs Cena

- This was excellent and I thought it was much better than their first bout. I thought the match itself was laid out much more logically than their previous battle. In two WWE matches, Owens is already on the tier just below Brock, but sharing a platform with Cena/Rollins/Wyatt and positioned as a bigger threat than anyone else on the roster. He's exploded to the point I don't understand how they logically have him lose the belt to Balor in Japan.

 

Ryback vs Big Show - Fun while it lasted, greatly enjoyed Ryback's big man transition to the cross armbreaker (thought he was going for a jacked up La Magistral at first). But man, that ending was a buzzkill.

 

Oh, and Vince's dancing is always outstanding to watch.

[C.S.]

Cena is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, it seems. He changed up his style a little bit, and people are blasting him for it, even though it made perfect sense and told a good story in the context of this match.

[Loss]

It's 2015, and I think someone would have to convince me that John Cena hasn't been WWE's best guy this year, the same year they are phasing him down the card.

[Quentin Skinner]

That was the entire narrative, Cena having to pull out things we've never seen from him so he can get the win. I loved how Cena was really getting in to it with the ref. He always really subtly exchanges words with the referee, but Cena has never flipped on a ref the way he did last night. Showed how desperate and frustrated Cena was, it was a great touch.

[Slasher]

I agree with El-P. It is definitely hypocritical to praise Cena for doing something that would get anyone else killed if they did the same thing. Having it explained in the context of "But see...Cena had to bust out new moves to beat Owens and Owens wrestled the same match lol~!" doesn't really justify anything in my eyes. It was a good match in a standalone context but if you add in everything about the two characters and where they stand it was not as good. I get that Cena is trying new stuff to keep up with the new blood and he is probably overcompensating for losing a little zip off his typical formula but Code Red? Seriously? It is the same thing as the springboard stunner. He is burning through moves that are finisher caliber as transitional moves to prove that point? Fuck him.

[BillThompson]

Finisher caliber is all about context. In the context that Cena has used them, and that they have been put forth in the promotion, those moves are not finisher caliber. Something like the Bull Hammer may not be as impressive as those moves from an aesthetic viewpoint, but it has been presented in context and within the promotion as a move of a finishing caliber.

[DMJ]

I attended the show, so I thought I'd share some live notes/thoughts...

 

* I believe it was a legit sell-out. Crowd was hot at start of the show - some "Thank You Dusty" and "Dusty" chants even before the show began that got even louder once the whole roster came out for the 10-bell salute.

 

* Reigns got a big reaction and was supported for his offense...but there were some questionable calls. Before Wyatt came out, I believe Reigns had tossed Ziggler or Neville off the ladder, which got booed. When you're plotting out a match, I'm not sure why you'd have Reigns' "last obstacle" be one of those two and it was that poor choice, way more than any real anti-Reigns vibe, that made the crowd erupt in "Yes!" chants when Wyatt screwed him. Similarly, once Reigns was knocked out of contention, the crowd was pretty unsure who to root for - partially because the best face choice seemed to be Neville as Orton and Ziggler seemed to spend 90% of the match on the floor taking naps. Again, more than anything, this seemed to leave the fans disappointed that Wyatt didn't retrieve the briefcase himself. Overall, the match got good responses for its bright moments (the RKO on Neville, for example), but like many, I think the general feeling was that Sheamus winning was the wrong choice. I like that Reigns still has mountains to climb, but if it wasn't going to be him, I'd have went with Orton, who not only has plenty of history with Rollins but, more importantly, is a big enough name to be an interesting challenger to Brock Lesnar.

 

* Paige/Nikki started slow and the crowd was pretty disinterested, but as the match wore on, I think it won over people. Finally it seemed like Nikki was able to play the clear heel, though, who knows? With Total Divas returning soon, they'll probably try to make them faces again.

 

* Lots of "New Day Rocks/Sucks" chants throughout the evening - before the show, during the show, after the show. People just love that damn chant/clap.

 

* Cena/Owens was the peak of the show. Three separate "This is Awesome" chants. I'm not sure how it came across on screen but, while there was the traditional "Let's Go Cena/Cena Sucks" chants, there was also a sizeable portion of the audience that responded to "Let's Go Cena!" with "Fight Owens Fight!". To me, that is a really, really telling sign of just how over Owens is already - the fact is, fans weren't just booing Cena as they usually do, they were actively rooting for his opponent and there were loads and loads of KO shirts and sizes in the crowd. With all that these two brought to the match, the crowd was just completely sucked dry. I'm not sure how it felt at the last PPV, but at this one, there was a real sense that the best part of the night was over once the match and post-match angle ended.

 

* Ambrose and Rollins worked really hard to revive a dead crowd. At one point, somewhere near our section, someone made an audible "Woo Woo Woo!" shout and I just turned to my friend and said, "It is not a good sign when you're hearing Zack Ryder noises during your main event ladder match." As the match went on, I think Rollins and Ambrose did succeed in bringing the audience back in to a respectable degree and, personally, I thought this was Ambrose's best showing in months (selling the knee all the way to end, not overusing the slingshot moves), but Cena/Owens was just too good of a match to be outshined.

[LariatMMBOPPO]

I agree with El-P. It is definitely hypocritical to praise Cena for doing something that would get anyone else killed if they did the same thing. Having it explained in the context of "But see...Cena had to bust out new moves to beat Owens and Owens wrestled the same match lol~!" doesn't really justify anything in my eyes. It was a good match in a standalone context but if you add in everything about the two characters and where they stand it was not as good. I get that Cena is trying new stuff to keep up with the new blood and he is probably overcompensating for losing a little zip off his typical formula but Code Red? Seriously? It is the same thing as the springboard stunner. He is burning through moves that are finisher caliber as transitional moves to prove that point? Fuck him.

Code Red has been used as a 2 count move by a lot of people in WWE. Hell, Santino was using the Stunner as a comedy spot.

[Loss]

The first time I ever saw Code Red was in the Cesaro-Zayn match on the first NXT special, and one of the reasons I'm not so high on that match is that was that spot being thrown away for a quick nearfall. I still think the move is spectacular enough that it being anything but a finish is a tough sell for me, but it was at least a bigger nearfall here than it was there. I think once I get over the excitement of the moment (I just finished watching it), I'll prefer the first match because this really was just a series of moves-moves-moves. But it was an awfully entertaining series of moves-moves-moves and it was the most fitting match it could be for where I see the feud going, whether it was the best match these two could have or not.

[Bierschwale]

Goldust started using the Code Red in October 2013.

[LariatMMBOPPO]

I still think the move is spectacular enough that it being anything but a finish is a tough sell for me,

I feel the complete opposite. Maybe because I first saw it 12 years ago done by the Amazing Red and it's nothing new to me, but it's pretty much just a Sunset Flip with the receiver taking a back bump. It looks cool, but I have no issue with it just being a two count signature move or a low impact flash pin move.

[Matt D]

 

I still think the move is spectacular enough that it being anything but a finish is a tough sell for me,

I feel the complete opposite. Maybe because I first saw it 12 years ago done by the Amazing Red and it's nothing new to me, but it's pretty much just a Sunset Flip with the receiver taking a back bump. It looks cool, but I have no issue with it just being a two count signature move or a low impact flash pin move.

 

I'd probably like it best as a transition move to cut off a long heat run.

[The Man in Blak]

I haven't been able to watch the show yet, due to a family engagement last night, but I think the idea of Cena pulling out a new move in the rematch (to demonstrate some growth or extra training) is a nice bit of storytelling in the abstract. I don't know if the Code Red is a great choice for that move, though.

 

Goldust started using the Code Red in October 2013.

 

Yeah, and as much as I like Goldust, I've never seen him pull it off smoothly.

[LariatMMBOPPO]

Yeah, and as much as I like Goldust, I've never seen him pull it off smoothly.

I think he pulls it off pretty good here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD82zdsbMl0

[Matt D]

Someone had a really good point in there. Cena doing this stuff seems like a way to push back against his critics who thinks he doesn't do movez, especially when facing guys who do.

 

He should go the other way with it. It'd mean a hell of a lot more for him to pick up an Oklahoma slam or Calf Branding or something less goofy. To play to his strengths.

[The Man in Blak]

 

Yeah, and as much as I like Goldust, I've never seen him pull it off smoothly.

I think he pulls it off pretty good here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD82zdsbMl0

 

 

I will concede that I hadn't seen that match and that is definitely his best execution of the move that I've ever seen.

 

I do still think the move itself still looks like a churched-up sunset flip, though, especially when it's done from a standing position. (My "favorite" variant is when it's done off of a pescado and I could definitely see that variant being a okay-ish transition into a comeback.)

 

This isn't even getting into how Cena performed the move...

 

 

I want to see it in the context of the match but, in isolation, that doesn't look great.

[El-P]

Seriously, the whole Code Red isn't a big deal as far as the match itself goes. What is funny to me is that Cena working a good little X-Division match, with some execution issues (I mean, the first few minutes were so telegraphed that it was ridiculous in a total RVD way), all of a sudden is praised for it when infact the same match would be brushed aside in many other contexts. And the Code Red is a cute but stupid move (and the fact they kinda blew it didnt make it better, no). Seriously, the whole match was basically : move, kick out, move, kick out,, move kick out, repeat, rinse ad libitum. And there's nothing wrong about that if you like that style. But let's be somewhat consistent.

 

For the record, I don't care about that kickout-spamming style, but for what it was, I did enjoy the match. Not great or anything, but Cena, despite his obvious flaws (sorry but his STF is laughable), is always someone I enjoy watching when he's not in full WWE Epic mode, because his interactions with his environment are always cool (in this case, yeah, getting frustrated with the ref).

 

The Dusty hommage was cool (and sad, I was moved, Dusty seemed immortal).

 

The finish to Nikki vs Page was idiotic, but the match was pretty decent.

[Dylan Waco]

I would agree that the Code Red really isn't critical to El-P's argument, especially since he had no clue what move was even executed when he came into this thread to talk shit about the alleged inconsistency of others.

[El-P]

People said it was cool that Cena did a Code Red/Canadian Destroyer (apparently, Will who watched the match wasn't sure of the move either) in a match that was praised as "indy style movefest". I was amazed by that and found it funny. That's all. I never once alluded to the match itself before watching it. What I find funny is the argument itself.

 

(and for the record, I don't take all of this that seriously, there's no means spirit on my part)