Survivor Series 2015 thread

[JNLister]

The stuff with Breeze irritated me.

 

In NXT he was self absorbed prick and the selfies were a part of that.

In WWE he is a whiny millennial taking selfies.

 

In NXT he was a heel.

In WWE it's just the writers having no idea about millennials at all.

 

NXT develops characters. WWE calls up the gimmick.

[goodhelmet]

 

ON the reaction show last night, we all gave the show a thumbs up with a thumbs down in booking (except for Johnny Sorrow, go figure). This was not the worst show of the year at all.

 

What was worse IYO? None of the matches were better than "okay" because they all seemed rushed for time. (Reigns vs. Ambrose, in particular, felt criminally short when it should've been an easy Match of the Year contender; Breeze vs. Ziggler also could've gone longer.) And the booking, as you said, sucked. All of the other PPVs at least had something good or interesting, even if the overall event wasn't a success.

 

 

We all loved the ADR-Reigns match. We all liked the Survivor Series match. Most of us liked the main event besides the end bullshit. We were split on the woman's match. We thought Ambrose/Owens was good. all of us except Pete thought the Taker match was better than expected in-ring. I can't force anyone to like the show but having done reaction shows for every show this year, nobody thought it was a thumbs down. I actually defended the short main event. I don't think you need a long main event when both guys wrestled earlier in the night. Fun show.

[Slasher]

While the fans wouldn't complain about Owens being the champion, I think putting the belt on him now would have been a mistake. Owens, like Bray Wyatt, should have a meaningful run with the belt because their characters are such that you can do so many things with them as a champion. Owens winning the belt with designs of having Reigns win it a month or two later would only serve to piss off the very same fans that are forcing them to keep the belt off Reigns right now.

[thebrainfollower]

The only thing Vince can manipulate his audience to do his hate the product and give up watching. He seems decent at that.

[Loss]

Russo bagging on Owens' physique was a great troll job, as it managed to piss me off. The idea that Kevin Owens is out-of-shape is laughable considering the style he works. Is there something he should be able to do in the ring that he's not able to do because he can't keep up?

[Death From Above]

Owens isn't even that big a dude for a (relative) fat guy on the WWE roster. Like, he looks more like a football linebacker than a lineman. Maybe a CFL lineman, hah, but really he's not even what I would think of as "big" by wrestling's standards.

 

It's interesting, being back in for a month and paying more attention to fan chatter, it seems pretty clear this is a really difficult time to get over as a babyface in the company and actually get a push. All the (men's) belts are held by heels, and I'll admit I'm struggling to think of which faces other than Ambrose really seem both over and credible as top level challengers. A lot of the faces seem to be being forced to be more vanilla than they want to be. Ambrose not by coincidence seems to be the one guy getting leeway to really say and do a few things.

 

This is just a random thing but, again, having been out of the loop, I am kind of baffled why Ziggler seems to get so much hate from online fans. Is this just an overexposure thing? He seems like a pretty good worker to me but a lot of people seem to hate this guy.

 

I actually think in-ring the company has plenty of talent but I do see where people are pretty frustrated at how a lot of it is used.

[Mad Dog]

Russo bagging on Owens' physique was a great troll job, as it managed to piss me off. The idea that Kevin Owens is out-of-shape is laughable considering the style he works. Is there something he should be able to do in the ring that he's not able to do because he can't keep up?

 

Cornette has the same bitch with Owens. But Cornette is looking for anything to attack Owens over because he claimed he could never make it in the big leagues.

[Robert S]

Is it just me or were all matches except the women's match just guys running from spot to spot? The diva's championship match was the only match where I felt any build up at all. I know that the WWE style developed a lot in that direction in the last few years (let's say with Cena vs. Punk MITB as a starting point), but there have always been exceptions. Now everyone is working that way, which makes the shows really repetitive.

[supremebve]

Is it just me or were all matches except the women's match just guys running from spot to spot? The diva's championship match was the only match where I felt any build up at all. I know that the WWE style developed a lot in that direction in the last few years (let's say with Cena vs. Punk MITB as a starting point), but there have always been exceptions. Now everyone is working that way, which makes the shows really repetitive.

I'd agree with this, especially when you take into account how much in-ring talent they have right now. I've always hated the fact that they've always tried to have a company style, but their current style doesn't seem to really build to a climax. All of the matches seem like a exhibition of spots that ramp up to bigger spots, but they don't really connect with each other in a way that makes them meaningful. The style does occasionally lead to good matches, but I don't see us looking back on this era 10 years from now with any affection.

[Slasher]

I have no problem with fat wrestlers as long they can work well, so even if Owens is a fat guy, obviously he can still go so it isn't really the hinderance those people think is. That being said, his problem visually is that he's not really that tall at all. He might tower over a guy like Kalisto but if he is in the ring with the average sized wrestler, he comes across a bit short. So for the fact that he weighs 260+ pounds on that frame, it makes it look like he is a fat slob even if he's actually not. Wearing basketball shorts and a top while wrestling only accentuates that perception. If it was a 6 ft 4 guy weighing the same, that would be carried better visually than a guy who is barely 6 foot. So I mean, I don't think they are wrong to have that opinion. Of course they are wrong for thinking it even matters. Fat man wrestlers have always been around in pro wrestling. They even had a few of them headline Wrestlemanias, so they do need to let it go.

[DMJ]

This is just a random thing but, again, having been out of the loop, I am kind of baffled why Ziggler seems to get so much hate from online fans. Is this just an overexposure thing? He seems like a pretty good worker to me but a lot of people seem to hate this guy.

 

I actually think in-ring the company has plenty of talent but I do see where people are pretty frustrated at how a lot of it is used.

 

I'll try to explain the Ziggler hate a bit, but I'll preface this by saying - I think this forum is much harsher on him than most others. In many other corners of the IWC and among many knowledgable fans, Ziggler is still well-liked.

 

But the "backlash" against Ziggler is essentially based on the fact that he oversells, his ring attire is ugly, his offense is somewhat lackluster, and that, character-wise, he can be grating because he openly talks about how he is more interested in "stealing the show" than winning matches. Unlike Cena, who at least pretends that winning and losing matter because he wants to be a role model and live with a Never Give Up spirit, Ziggler is almost the quintessential 50/50 booking posterboy - and he almost seems proud of it as long as he got in a few big, concussion-causing bumps. He is a "work harder, not smarter" worker and, in this forum, where guys are credited for doing so much more with so much less, the Ziggler hate is completely reasonable.

 

Of course, there are still plenty of places around the internet where wrestling a "safe style" is seen as a bad thing and, among those fans, Ziggler's recklessness, overacting, and desire to "steal the show" have made him incredibly over. Personally, I think he can be very good in certain matches and roles, but won't deny that I've grown to be much less of a booster since 2008-09 or so, when I thought his performances were much better because, at that time, his act and efforts stood out more. The roster is that much better today than it was then, so, I don't think he shines as brightly. (Oddly, the opposite is true for Kofi Kingston to me)

[Judy Bagwell]

 

Worst PPV of the year?

 

I was pissed last night, but now I'm just laughing at how hard WWE trolled its "Universe."

 

Sheamus was a dorky dweeb in a nothing match earlier on the show, and now he's the World Heavyweight Champion. His character is still ice cold either way.

 

BTW, WTF was up with Reigns crying for several minutes at the end? Surprised no one mentioned that. I'd cry too in his position, but still.

 

What's sad is that I went from rooting to Ambrose to rooting for Reigns as soon as Sheamus tried to cash in. I bet I wasn't alone. WWE coulda gotten their boy some genuine cheers if Sheamus's lame cash-in was thwarted by Reigns and his cheering Roman Empire.

 

ON the reaction show last night, we all gave the show a thumbs up with a thumbs down in booking (except for Johnny Sorrow, go figure). This was not the worst show of the year at all.

 

christ even Will is drinking the Kool aid

[TravJ1979]

In no way was this the worst PPV of the year.

 

Both of Reigns matches were very good.

Ambrose/Owens was very good.

Charlotte had her best main roster match so far.

The elimination tag was a good break of comedy and action after the first to technically good matches.

Taker's match was what it was.

 

I mean, I don't think there was a bad match on the show.

And as far as Booking, almost everyone came out looking better than when they came in.

[goodhelmet]

 

 

Worst PPV of the year?

 

I was pissed last night, but now I'm just laughing at how hard WWE trolled its "Universe."

 

Sheamus was a dorky dweeb in a nothing match earlier on the show, and now he's the World Heavyweight Champion. His character is still ice cold either way.

 

BTW, WTF was up with Reigns crying for several minutes at the end? Surprised no one mentioned that. I'd cry too in his position, but still.

 

What's sad is that I went from rooting to Ambrose to rooting for Reigns as soon as Sheamus tried to cash in. I bet I wasn't alone. WWE coulda gotten their boy some genuine cheers if Sheamus's lame cash-in was thwarted by Reigns and his cheering Roman Empire.

 

ON the reaction show last night, we all gave the show a thumbs up with a thumbs down in booking (except for Johnny Sorrow, go figure). This was not the worst show of the year at all.

 

christ even Will is drinking the Kool aid

 

 

What Kool Aid? The booking sucked but the wrestling was good. My running thoughts during the show reflected that.

[Coffey]

I didn't even think the wrestling was good. I didn't even think it was average. It was all, to me, completely forgettable. It's like the PPV could have never even happened & nothing would have changed. It felt like if you pick a random Smackdown, any show, from the past five years. Just pick a date. That's what Survivor Series felt like. Matches that weren't impressive. Outcomes that didn't matter. Nothing really happened. Nothing that someone would go out of their way to see.

 

Nothing was offensive, nothing was downright awful. Nothing was good, memorable or even fun though. It was like a hole in space. Just there.

 

I mean people are talking about the highlights of the show being Xavier Woods' hairstyle and an 8-bit video game commercial for TLC. That doesn't exactly say good things about the matches or the work...

[NotJayTabb]

If the WWE are so concerned with Reigns getting the positive reactions they want, it probably best not to book him in a tournament final up against another popular face. Even if Reigns was fully connecting with the audience, you're pretty much guaranteeing a split crowd with that booking.

 

Even though he's a directionless character, add me to the list of people happy to see world champ Sheamus. Having endured 7 terrible months of Rollins' run, Sheamus is a huge upgrade - better promo, better wrestler, less likely to try and wrestle like a face on PPV's. Just better.

[Jingus]

I have no problem with fat wrestlers as long they can work well, so even if Owens is a fat guy, obviously he can still go so it isn't really the hinderance those people think is.

In some ways, I think his work style is a hinderance, when you're in a company which is as ludicrously obsessed with certain types of people having certain types of bodies as the WWE is. Owens's problem with the office (and everyone who's been trained to parrot the office's views) is that he's a workrate guy with a fat tummy. They don't know how to process that in the WWE, they never have. Think of all the years that they'd bitch about Big Show and Mark Henry being too fat; when did that complaining finally stop? When those guys gained even more weight and changed their styles from "surprisingly athletic big guy" to "slow plodding monster who just kills people and doesn't sell much". WWE is fine with fat monsters (think Bray Wyatt), they always have been; they're not fine with fat guys who are supposed to be top-shelf athletes (think Braden Walker or latter-day Matt Hardy).

 

Management doesn't think of Owens in terms of guys like King Kong Bundy or Yokozuna; he's an indy workrate guy. He gets compared to Cesaro, to Bryan, maybe even to his possibly-poor-word-choice namesake Owen Hart. And Vince & Co. are utterly flabbergasted at the very idea of a fat guy who does workrate sprints and lots of MOVEZ. They don't like it, they assume nobody else likes it and that such a performer couldn't possibly be an effective draw. Their idea of an effective fat worker is a big mean guy who mostly squashes smaller performers and maybe takes one big bump at the end of the match for token selling purposes. Vince and his yesmen have always insisted that athletes must have those toned muscular bodies, or else nobody in the crowd could possibly believe that they can win a fake fight.

[Goodear]

Where did this "They Don't Like Owens" narrative come from? The immediate rocket to the top of NXT, the immediate feud with John Cena on the main roster, or the IC Championship run? Poor Kevin Owens? Really?

[Jingus]

Hasn't it been repeatedly reported that management types want Kevin to lose weight, get in better shape, or however they phrase it? That's pretty common procedure with this company, I named multiple other examples of them doing the same thing to different guys. (And you'd be AMAZED at the number of mostly-younger smarks who I've seen whining that Owens is "buried" by, uh, I guess by not continuing to beat Cena in every match and not immediately going on to win the world title.)

[goc]

It was also reported before Survivor Series that Sheamus was not going to cash in the MITB briefcase. I think I'll rely more on what I can actually see happening than some vague "reports." Kevin Owens has had the best push of anyone from NXT that wasn't in The Shield. If he was really someone that Dunn and Vince didn't like then you wouldn't have to rely on rumor to figure it out. He wouldn't have debuted by beating John Cena in his very first match on the main roster.

[Mad Dog]

Kevin Owens is also a HHH pet project from what I've observed. I would say he's fairly well protected.

[Ricky Jackson]

Yeah "Vince hates Owens" makes absolutely no sense. He's being pushed. Fairly well.

[Jingus]

You guys are putting words in our mouths we never said. It's not that Vince hates Owens, and we never said so. It's that the company has historically proven to be pretty unable to understand "fat guys who can work" characters like him (complete with examples that I provided of other guys in similar situations with the same company, examples which keep getting ignored); and Kevin's start-stop push over the past few months has shown that they're clearly not ready to go all the way with him, or at least not close to being ready yet. And his fatness is probably a big part of that hesitation. And just being a Triple H project doesn't mean a guy is bulletproof, as Sin Cara and others have discovered.

 

It was also reported before Survivor Series that Sheamus was not going to cash in the MITB briefcase.

"One report was wrong about one thing. Ergo, the dirtsheets/internet can NEVER be trusted."

[goc]

It's pretty easy to spot the clickbait stuff though. "Kevin Dunn told Randy Orton to make a fat joke about Kevin Owens" is one that stands out in that regard.

[Slasher]

I don't think it is that he is fat that is the reason for the stop start push. It is that Brock walked out of the WWE off the heels of maybe the best push anyone could ever possibly dream of in his first two years. So Vince is very determined to make sure the guys he does push in the end are the lifers that he wants them to be. That is the biggest reason. The smaller reason is that although Owens debuted on the main roster in such a way that people expected him to be a main eventer, they were never going to push him on that level yet. It was just that Owens came up at a time where they were doing the Rollins and Authority vs Shield guys and Randy Orton at the top of the card for the world title and there was no one else really for them to put their top star John Cena against for any meaningful length of time. Sure, they could just have had Cena beat Owens straight up all the time if they really didn't care about him, but I think Cena in real life had respect for Owens as a worker and Triple H had respect for him as a project. So it was just perfect timing in that regard, however... he was never meant to be one of the top guys after the Cena program. Where he ended up settling in now is where they anticipated him being when they planned his debut. This doesn't mean he won't get a main event push. It just means he has to wait in line while the other guys they did have big main event plans for play it out before they can turn to Owens. I wouldn't be surprised if Owens is one of the key opponents for Roman Reigns's first world championship run. Like maybe at Summerslam or the 2017 Royal Rumble or even Wrestlemania XXXIII.