Loss Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 But fans had no way of knowing that at the time. They willed him into the main event and WWE put him over convincingly on that show. That was the culmination of the movement. A lot of us thought it was a new chapter because of how they structured the entire card by putting The Shield over the NAO, Cesaro over Big Show and Lesnar over Undertaker. Then they put an exclamation point on a new direction the next night on RAW. WM30 seemed like WWE saying "You want new stars? Fine, here you go." Turns out that RAW was the end of it but how would anyone have known that then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 It's also easier than ever to dip in and out. They have 4 minute raw/smackdown recaps on youtube. If there's a great superstars match you miss, it's on the network to catch. Etc. It's not a big commitment to keep a toe in the water. It's barely even a conscious decision. If they put together a good card next month, we'll watch. If not maybe we'll watch something else. And there's always the month after either way. That's how I watch now. I know the booking and week to week stuff will suck, so I ignore it. The 3 PPVs I watch have 10 minutes worth of recap footage before every match to bring me up to speed on storylines. If someone I respect online is pimping something from Raw, I might check it out. I mostly enjoyed last night's Mania because I paid no attention to the build up and silly booking and just enjoyed the matches and other work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 But fans had no way of knowing that at the time. They willed him into the main event and WWE put him over convincingly on that show. That was the culmination of the movement. A lot of us thought it was a new chapter because of how they structured the entire card by putting The Shield over the NAO, Cesaro over Big Show and Lesnar over Undertaker. WM30 seemed like WWE saying "You want new stars? Fine, here you go." Ok but we all know that NOW. We all know when Daniel Bryan came back they made a joke out of him in the Royal Rumble and then threw him into the IC Title scene. So why in the world is there still this persistent myth that "If we just buy enough tickets and chant loud enough we'll get our way"? Why would WWE respect those fans who clearly don't seem to have any respect for themselves because they keep paying large sums of money to support a company they never get tired of bashing. It's why I've repeatedly said if I was WWE I would be far more focused on trying to please the house show crowd & t-shirt buyers (who Roman Reigns does well with) because they are the ones whose business might actually go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Again, because they got their way -- Daniel Bryan was willed into the WM30 main event, which is what fans wanted. Roman Reigns wasn't coronated at WM31, which is what fans wanted. I could see how some fans would take away the lesson that they could have sustained it had they kept the pressure on, or had Bryan not had an injury. I agree that WWE has a model that's working because they're pissing people off in a way that actually yields more financial investment from those same people. I just don't feel the need to insult the people who are part of that like you are. They can do what they want. I just know I don't want to be part of that anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Did you all know that NXT is on Hulu? Takeover specials, too. They also have like 90 minute versions of Raw. It's just a way to see it without directly giving WWE your money via the network. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 But fans had no way of knowing that at the time. They willed him into the main event and WWE put him over convincingly on that show. That was the culmination of the movement. A lot of us thought it was a new chapter because of how they structured the entire card by putting The Shield over the NAO, Cesaro over Big Show and Lesnar over Undertaker. Then they put an exclamation point on a new direction the next night on RAW. WM30 seemed like WWE saying "You want new stars? Fine, here you go." Turns out that RAW was the end of it but how would anyone have known that then? They do that every ten years apparently. WM10, 20, 30. I bet 40 will be pretty hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Again, because they got their way -- Daniel Bryan was willed into the WM30 main event, which is what fans wanted. Roman Reigns wasn't coronated at WM31, which is what fans wanted. I could see how some fans would take away the lesson that they could have sustained it had they kept the pressure on, or had Bryan not had an injury. I agree that WWE has a model that's working because they're pissing people off in a way that actually yields more financial investment from those same people. I just don't feel the need to insult the people who are part of that like you are. They can do what they want. I just know I don't want to be part of that anymore. I feel like when your big argument is how much smarter you are than Vince McMahon and how he needs to listen to you all the while giving him MORE money as he continues to do the opposite of what you want, you kind of deserve the ridicule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 I don't. That's wrestling, and promoters have manipulated fans since the beginning of time. They complain, but they are fans. They support a medium that we all love. If they deserve ridicule for being manipulated by Vince, so does every fan that has ever responded to something the way a promoter wanted. I mean, there were people on Twitter who I think somehow convinced themselves subconsciously that Shane would run Creative and that Raw's quality would improve if he beat Undertaker. That's a sign that the work is in full effect. Ridiculing fans that get worked misses the whole point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 They deserve ridicule because they think they aren't being manipulated all the while looking down their noses at "those dumb casuals" who buy Roman Reigns t-shirts and cheer him at house shows. Their favorite line is "just keep swallowing the shit Vince McMahon feeds you!" all the while having it stuck all in their teeth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 WWE : The trolling era. Ladder clusterfuck. Jobber winning IC title. BTW, US title in pre-show between two JTTS. Last year, Cena vs Rusev. Big match. Lana now poor wrestler. Superstar potential gone. AJ Styles had better match with Raven in 2003. New Day sucks again. Turned everything cool heels into shitty babyfaces. League of Nation = who cares. Alberto Del Rio, true star in LU. Rusev, whatever happened to your Poutine basking glory ? Steve Austin doing really meaningful shit in Texas. Stars of today ain't worth shit. Why did I rate Lesnar so high in GWE poll ? When Suplex City became gimmick, match turned into nothing. Raven & Sandman had better garbage matches in 2003. Three women saved the show. Cool belt. Thriple threat = cluster of sorts, still they made it good. Heel should win. Babyface win later. Sasha + Eddie pants + Snoop = BOSSY mofa. Undie vs ShanO. Dumb as fuck. Boring as fuck. Rocky cuts promo about fake number. Raven's worst promo in 2003 = better than Bray Wyatt. Stars of today ain't shit, the return. Slutty Stephy hot and shit. Match cold as fuck. HHH pass the steroid test ok ? Boring as fuck. Great thread. Shit show. Bye bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Just like most people who cheered Dusty Rhodes in JCP didn't think they were getting manipulated. I agree that they are missing the condescension piece, but that's a two-way street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 On a different note, I'm so glad I got the all-time vapid quote, "Champions behave like champions before they are champions" as a parting gift. I hope Roman Reigns has a cat whose breath smells like cat food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 I know we've been through this a billion and a half times over the last 2 years but I don't get the talking point that Bryan was just over with the hardcore fans who complain. He had to have had some casual t shirt buyers lashing out at the company as well. Kids love the guy and his merchandise was selling alright with a terrible design and great after a re brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 I am not interested in the "if you don't like it don't watch" argument for all the reasons stated above. I would add that I think the WWE's business model and the things they have done to diversify establish themselves as synonymous with wrestling as a whole has made it really hard to quit the WWE. They make it really easy to buy in and almost not worth it opt out with the network. Even if I don't turn the network on for a few days I cant imagine getting rid of it really because I might be listening to a podcast and here someone reference I match from an old show I haven't seen or haven't seen in a while. It is just too easy, too accessible. I think there are a few talent related things they do that are brilliant for them and frustrating for me in terms of the main roster First, they appropriate the emotional investment certain populations of fans have in the "indy darlings" or whatever you want to call them. Even though I don't watch much, I will probably keep an eye on the product just to see what Zayn, Owens, Rollins, Styles, Joe, and so on are up to. They really peaked with this when they were running Punk vs Cena and Dragon vs Cena. I actually think they get how fans of these wrestlers think and they have proven that in how they have booked certain story-lines (their best in recent memory) and certain characters (Baron Corbin particularly). This blurs the lines in a way, but ultimately they seem to have fallen into using that knowledge to appease a subsection of their fanbase. Related, I am not sure who is making what decision and really running what, but whoever is deciding when and how to bring up NXT talent might be fucking up to some of us, but they are also allowing talent to gain a following with the hardcore fans and then bringing them onto the show in a way that is hard not to follow. I am not sure it is intentional, but this does allow them to play to a certain portion of the audience in that variety show kind of way. I am becoming increasingly convinced that NXT is less about developing talent now and more about a subsection of their "universe" that simultaneously appeases, energizes, and taps into a particular section of fans (of which I am a part). Eventually they are going to get to the point where they are producing, in a studio, the "journey through the indies" that is part of the appeal of guys like Punk, Dragon, Owens, etc. They are going to give them a less visible forum to have different kinds of matches, build their characters, showcase skills, "pay dues", and do something counter to the WWE culture, but it will all be under the WWE umbrella and script (already is, really). I suspect we are going to see more and more of the roster made up of former NXT folk and i don't think that necessarily means the product will change for the better. They are basically taking Wrestling's punk music scene and trying to get to the point where they reproduce it in bigger expensive studies and in some ways they are using some our favorite "punk" acts to start the process. I am not saying it is bad really. I love NXT and I am really happy to see lots of these people get the shot they want and the money they deserve. As long as they keep peppering in really talented people who have been working in other promotions and gathering their following, I don't see why it wont work and why I wouldn't continue to enjoy it. No complaint at all, but I also recognize it is one of the reasons I don't tune out completely. I am emotionally invested in a hand full of people that are working for the WWE, I am not alone in that, and the WWE knows it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingliam Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 I watched this in a pub in Loughborough. I've never seen a group of people so apathetic to everything that happened in a wrestling ring as what I saw post 3.45am. People were getting really angry at the extent of the runover time - no-one ever asked for an extra 45 minutes on top of the four hours Wrestlemania always offered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Can't stop laughing at the notion that you have to spend "hundreds of dollars a year" to watch the WWE like it's still 1995. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Can't stop laughing at the notion that you have to spend "hundreds of dollars a year" to watch the WWE like it's still 1995. I'm talking about the people who do crazy trips to go to see big PPVs like Mania & SummerSlam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMKK Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 But fans had no way of knowing that at the time. They willed him into the main event and WWE put him over convincingly on that show. That was the culmination of the movement. A lot of us thought it was a new chapter because of how they structured the entire card by putting The Shield over the NAO, Cesaro over Big Show and Lesnar over Undertaker. Then they put an exclamation point on a new direction the next night on RAW. WM30 seemed like WWE saying "You want new stars? Fine, here you go." Turns out that RAW was the end of it but how would anyone have known that then?That was the point where I was more hopeful for wrestling than I have been in a long time. Wrestlemania 30 to me was the best modern Wrestlemania because it had feel good moments up and down the card, including the ultimate pay-off for fans with Bryan winning the title. When The Shield squashed Kane and The New Age Outlaws JBL on commentary said something akin to "Goodbye to the Attitude Era." It genuinely felt like that's what that show was. For a brief few weeks, HHH and Stephanie were brilliant as mega heels who the fans hated and Bryan was getting Steve Austin pops as the people's champion babyface opposing them. All was right with the world. Now, two years on, it feels like we're being punished for forcing their hand. Just as part of why Roman Reigns is hated is simply residual bad feeling for him not being Daniel Bryan, I honestly think that Vince is more ardent than ever before in sticking to his direction of travel in opposition to the hardcore audience after they forced his hand in 2014. It's a trial of will to see how far he can go before the hardcores are broken for good. They'll throw in cheap, empty legend pops but these are counterproductive for reasons we've discussed to death and they feel hollow when we look back. Even the women's triple threat, which was a fantastic production from the rebrand, to the entrances to the match itself was undercut by not giving the fans the result they were clamouring for. It's as if Vince is throwing down the gauntlet. Dystopian wrestling. Is this the new work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenKeys Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Looking back on the card after sleeping on it , i think i enjoyed the Kalisto/Ryback match the most outside of the three way dance . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Hunter tweeted out "All hope is lost" in latin on twitter. Maybe he's giving up on the product as well --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 I watched this in a pub in Loughborough. I've never seen a group of people so apathetic to everything that happened in a wrestling ring as what I saw post 3.45am. People were getting really angry at the extent of the runover time - no-one ever asked for an extra 45 minutes on top of the four hours Wrestlemania always offered. Beyond the scope of the booking, the sheer running time of wrestlemania is becoming a problem. A wrestling card works best generally at about 2 1/2 hours. Like a movie, if you're running way over time it takes extra effort to keep the audience engaged. Last night's wrestlemania including pre show ran over six hours. That's an insane amount of time to keep all but your most hardcore fans engaged. Combine that with a crowd of 85,000 or so, and watching a show live becomes an utter chore. It's difficult even to present great booking under those circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Dragon Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 So can we officially declare that the worst match on Takeover would have been the 2nd best at Mania? Certainly on the main show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 The biggest booking whiff on this show was not having Snoop stop Flair from interfering. Most of the booking complaints are from the fan perspective and ultimately are going to have no impact on their business, because evidence shows that those fans will keep coming back no matter what. On the other hand a big incident involving a celebrity on the biggest stage is exactly the kind of Moment that is really central to the Vince Jr. conception of wrestling. It would've gotten them a bunch of media attention. Weird that they whiffed on it, because if nothing else this is the kind of thing that Vince still tends to be very good at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 I thought it was kind of a given we were going to get some kind of "Snoop clotheslines Flair" spot and was pretty disappointed in didn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMKK Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 The biggest booking whiff on this show was not having Snoop stop Flair from interfering. Most of the booking complaints are from the fan perspective and ultimately are going to have no impact on their business, because evidence shows that those fans will keep coming back no matter what. On the other hand a big incident involving a celebrity on the biggest stage is exactly the kind of Moment that is really central to the Vince Jr. conception of wrestling. It would've gotten them a bunch of media attention. Weird that they whiffed on it, because if nothing else this is the kind of thing that Vince still tends to be very good at. That was very odd to me. When Flair was pulling back Sasha I thought it was a given that it was a set up for Snoop punching him and her going back in to win the match. Very bizarre to miss that opportunity. That whole thing was quite bizarre really. They made the big deal about changing belts and it being a new era, had Sasha come out with an entrance performance from a legit mainstream star, put her in gear paying tribute to a beloved deceased wrestler complete with tribute spots in the match and then she didn't go over? Considering the monster pop she got for the entrance, if they give her the belt and did the whole new era hype and firework display etc., it could easily be argued that she is the biggest star on the full time roster. I understand setting up a chase for the belt but this seemed like a missed opportunity. Wrestlemania is the place for pay-offs not set-ups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.