Reactions to the List: 100-51

[Jimmy Redman]

Those Angle rankings are mystifying to me. Top three blows my mind. To each their own I guess, but even when I generally liked Angle and he was sort of unique in his context he was just never the best wrestler in the world (in my eyes). I really don't dislike him and part of this might be just the ebbs and flows of my own interests, but he just doesn't hold up that well for me on recent and relatively recent watches. I love his intensity and the urgency of his matches, but just don't like the way many of them progress.

 

I recently rewatched his series with Guerrero and didn't like it nearly as much as I once did. His dogged determination to spend half the match in the ankle lock was soul sucking. That is coming from a full blown Eddie Guerrero mark who thinks he is truly elite watching what I count as prime Eddie work getting swallowed up by the wet blanket that is Kurt Angle.

 

I actually see the Angle/Eddie matches as similar to the Shawn/Hunter matches, in that they have bad matches, but they also have more good matches that seemed to get drowned out by the bad for whatever reason.

 

I think the WMXX match is awesome. Summerslam 2004 sucked, and the matches around that period aren't great (although their 2/3 Falls match from then...the first fall of that match is outstanding). They had a SD match in 2002 during the Six period that wasn't good, but they did have a SD match in 2005 that was really good. So it swings. Most people remember the bad stuff they did, whereas I actually remember the good ones more.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

For a guy for whom the main criticism is that he's too go-go-go, and doesn't know how to do things in moderation, Kurt sure did bore the shit out of me a lot of the time.

[Woof]

 

So it looks like the answer is "no, it's not safe". Got it. Back to my WWE-loving hole in the ground.

My Angle criticisms are mostly about the very end of his WWE run and pretty much the entirety of his TNA run. I'm definitely not a "WWE hater" considering I have Cena just outside my top 10, Hogan in my top 25 and only just missed being the high vote on Matt Hardy by 2 spots.

 

Just because I loved the first 3 years of Angle's career doesn't mean I am going to forget everything that came afterward when the only idea he seemed to have for making an "epic" match was to have a bunch of finishers & counters of finishers.

 

 

I don't have an issue with the criticisms. Everybody has a take and that's legit. That's why this board exists. I just grew tired of the constant bashing throughout the reveal thread. I know people were just having fun with it, but it's tiresome when you're somebody who enjoys the guy's work (flaws and all) and every other post is "FUCK THAT GUY!". It takes the fun out of celebrating how well other guys did. Whatever. Now it'll move on to Michaels. Life goes on, lads.

[Childs]

I'm one who likes later Blue Panther more than prime Blue Panther. He missed my ballot because we have almost none of him from the UWA and because a lot of his '90s stuff was uninspiring relative to the best work of his peers. I find him overrated as a mat worker, but I dug the shit out of his mask losing performance and his work against Casas. Those matches showed his fire and his ability to flat out fight. He was in my 100 most of the way and just missed in the end.

[Childs]

Relative to Angle, I don't mind if Shawn hangs around for a bit. Far greater career and demonstrated grasp of pro wrestling.

[Matt D]

Relative to Angle, I don't mind if Shawn hangs around for a bit. Far greater career and demonstrated grasp of pro wrestling.

But often used it for evil.

[concrete1992]

I'm actually curious where Shawn ends up at this points cause I truly don't know where people feel he should be that voted for him.

[Badlittlekitten]

While I don't see him as the blow away greatest mat worker, Panther is really bloody good. I can be judged as vague/cop out to say this but he really does have an aura about him. He one of those guys that gives me a buzz whenever he pops up. I find him fascinating as a masked technician that happens to be a rudo. Bonus points for having the best mask in wrestling.

 

Two of my top twenty are now gone. No surprise they were both joshi workers.

 

Fallen soldiers:

17 Chigusa Nagayo
19 Jaguar Yokota
23 Sangre Chicana
26 Steve Grey
41 Terry Rudge
44 Carlos Colon
46 Dump Matsumoto
50 Antonio Inoki
52 Bob Backlund
54 Mick McManus
55 Alan Sargeant
57 Devil Masami
58 Johnny Saint
60 Meiko Satomura
61 Jerry Blackwell
62 Dusty Rhodes
63 Fuerza Guerrera
66 Marty Jones
67 Larry Zbyszko
68 Atsushi Onita
69 Butch Reed
70 Abdullah The Butcher
71 Atlantis
74 Mocho Cota
76 Hulk Hogan
77 Clive Myers
78 Ron Garvin
80 Mayumi Ozaki
83 Shinobu Kandori
84 Yoshiaki Yatsu
85 Steve Williams
87 Tracy Smothers
88 Lex Luger
90 Virus
91 Manami Toyota
92 La Parka
93 Stan Lane
94 Super Astro
95 Great Sasuke
96 Yoshinari Ogawa
97 Mark Henry
98 Yumi Ikeshita
99 Dean Allmark

Think we'll see Billy Robinson go soon. Hasn't Owen Hart dropped yet?

[Badlittlekitten]

Christ that was a bad choice of words

[goc]

Relative to Angle, I don't mind if Shawn hangs around for a bit. Far greater career and demonstrated grasp of pro wrestling.

Yea I don't have a real dislike for Shawn like I do with Angle. Shawn had some shitty matches but he also showed he could be a really smart worker at times. Angle never really demonstrated any intelligence at how to make a good wrestling match other than keep going to the same well over and over.

 

Shawn did kind of fall into that trap too at times, like The Undertaker matches but I feel he was at least better at milking those moments than Angle was. If I had to watch someone wrestle a "finisher/lay around for 30+ seconds/get up and do another finisher" kind of match that I hate I'd at least rather watch Michaels do it than Angle. Angle's feels so robotic and devoid of emotion while Michaels, while being over dramatic, at least brings some feeling to it.

[Woof]

Christ that was a bad choice of words

 

Use the edit feature, bro.

[Cap]

 

Those Angle rankings are mystifying to me. Top three blows my mind. To each their own I guess, but even when I generally liked Angle and he was sort of unique in his context he was just never the best wrestler in the world (in my eyes). I really don't dislike him and part of this might be just the ebbs and flows of my own interests, but he just doesn't hold up that well for me on recent and relatively recent watches. I love his intensity and the urgency of his matches, but just don't like the way many of them progress.

 

I recently rewatched his series with Guerrero and didn't like it nearly as much as I once did. His dogged determination to spend half the match in the ankle lock was soul sucking. That is coming from a full blown Eddie Guerrero mark who thinks he is truly elite watching what I count as prime Eddie work getting swallowed up by the wet blanket that is Kurt Angle.

 

I actually see the Angle/Eddie matches as similar to the Shawn/Hunter matches, in that they have bad matches, but they also have more good matches that seemed to get drowned out by the bad for whatever reason.

 

I think the WMXX match is awesome. Summerslam 2004 sucked, and the matches around that period aren't great (although their 2/3 Falls match from then...the first fall of that match is outstanding). They had a SD match in 2002 during the Six period that wasn't good, but they did have a SD match in 2005 that was really good. So it swings. Most people remember the bad stuff they did, whereas I actually remember the good ones more.

 

Ohh I agree completely. They had good matches and they had stinkers. They just don't live up to my memory of them. I used to think the WMXX math was one of my favorites ever and in hindsight it is really good, but not close to my lofty thoughts on first (and maybe second) watch around the time it happened. The summerslam match is almost painful to watch, though it has its moments. That one in 2005 from SD is probably my favorites of the ones I have recently rewatched. I thought that was an excellent match.

 

This is probably my bias as much as anything, but I think the matches they excelled in where Eddie matches, worked the way Eddie thrives. The matches that sucked (especially that SummerSlam match) were more Angle matches, working toward his strengths a little bit. The WM match was a little of both and came out pretty good. The 4/14/2005 SD match and the Summerslam match feel like night and day to me. One drags and is way to hung up on holds that don't really go anywhere and the other is all about the chess match and the reverses and doing everything with purpose. Hey, hats off to Angle for the good ones too... I just feel generally disappointment by Angle as time goes by. LIke I said though, that might shift the other way one day.

[WingedEagle]

 

I completely understand the criticisms of Angle, but the guy still impresses me more times than not. Yeah, he does too much and for the most part has one gear. But man he just does so much with it. At the end of the day I'd rather go to bed overstuffed and perhaps a little sick than starving.

 

How do you view his TNA work?

 

To me he really dragged down talented guys like Nigel, Styles, and even Joe into the sewer with him, but as someone who may be a fan of some of the stuff I dislike, I'm curious to know how you look at the last ten years of his career.

 

 

I haven't watched most of it since near when it originally aired, but am actually in the process of rewatching a lot of TNA (among the endless list of viewing projects) and just about up to his debut, and am looking forward to seeing where I stand on it today. With that caveat, I thought he had a lot of hits and misses. Hits were when he really gelled with someone, such as the Joe matches at Genesis '06 and Lockdown '08, but not so much the first rematch. Similarly, I thought he had some really excellent work with Styles, Jarrett and far from stinkers with the likes of Sting, Abyss and Matt Morgan, relative to their talents.

 

Then there are the misses. The iron man match with Joe. The other times with even excellent workers like Styles or Christian where enough just wasn't enough and he left a lot of scorched earth in his tracks. Interestingly, I think he didn't mix well at all with Christian, who was determined to work a more traditional style with selling and building a match. Angle's best output, for my money, came when he was in with someone willing and capable of pushing him at his pace, in his comfort zone.

 

I'm just about finished with Bob Backlund's autobiography and throughout it he talks about being very cognizant of building the crowd to a peak and then going home at that point. Angle is someone who often looked to get to that peak right away. And then keep going. On the right night, with the right opponent, it could be paced a bit better and perhaps not overcook things too much. That definitely happened with Nigel, though I think I really liked at least one of their matches, but can't recall which one.

 

So all those misses? The iron man, the video game TV match with AJ and its various iterations over the years? They're just not actively horrible for me. There's too much exciting offense out there for it to be trash. I can find something redeeming in that kind of match where the execution, effort, movement and action all offer something. It may not amount to a great match, and I may be throwing up my hands asking what in hell is going on at some point. But I will not be bored, and there will be great moments, whether a long teased moonsault, some highlight reel suplexes or big near fall sequence.

 

He's that friend who sometimes drinks too much and you need to send him home in cab. But you always want that guy at the bar because its never dull.

 

What's all that worth? I ranked him 61.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

I've watched a fair amount of Brisco matches since the voting deadline and part of me regrets not swapping Harley Race out for Brisco on my ballot.

[WingedEagle]

It means absolutely nothing, but I love seeing a dude named Moonsault Mavin comment on Jack Brisco. Just a great visual.

[Grimmas]

I've watched a fair amount of Brisco matches since the voting deadline and part of me regrets not swapping Harley Race out for Brisco on my ballot.

Harley Race is someone I just don't get. I don't see how anyone can watch him and think GREAT. I don't know why he is still left or why I am so far off the consensus with him.

[RIPPA]

 

My punishment for putting Angle on the backend of my ballot is him finishing one spot ahead of Blue Panther

 

I have no one to blame but myself

 

I sure as hell blame you.

 

I told you I hated my ballot

 

Heck - if Will ever posts that podcast you can start to hear my regret come out before the time is even over.

[WingedEagle]

I also have a fair bit of Brisco coming my way soon enough. Very, very much looking forward to a deep dive there. Like irrationally excited to jump into that.

[cad]

Panther should have finished behind Atlantis. Hell, Panther should have finished behind Emilio. I'll take a guy who's decent one on one and a big contributor to tags vs a guy who can be great one on one and decent in tags, just because of how infrequent the big one on ones are. I'm not even sure Panther's average singles match star rating would be higher than Emilio's. He had more great matches (and even on that front I like him less than most), but he also had more duds. I don't think he was overrated on the mat, though. It's every other aspect of his game that doesn't hold up.

[Grimmas]

I also have a fair bit of Brisco coming my way soon enough. Very, very much looking forward to a deep dive there. Like irrationally excited to jump into that.

Dick Togo. Jack Brisco. Those are the two I am most looking forward to diving into, now that the time crunch is over.

[Jetlag]

Brisco did insanely well. Like how on earth did that happen? People have been saying that they didn't include certain guys because "they couldn't dive into them..." does Brisco even have 20 matches to dive into? Not that I don't like the guy, but he's never blown me away like other 70s workers.

[goc]

I didn't vote for Jack Brisco because SOMEONE did not hook me up with the Brisco footage they said they would. But the clipped up NWA Title matches with Terry Funk are probably the matches I would most like to have in full out of all the clipped wrestling matches I've ever seen. The pace they worked and how they moved in and out of holds was really awesome.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

 

I've watched a fair amount of Brisco matches since the voting deadline and part of me regrets not swapping Harley Race out for Brisco on my ballot.

Harley Race is someone I just don't get. I don't see how anyone can watch him and think GREAT. I don't know why he is still left or why I am so far off the consensus with him.

 

 

Harley goes over well with folks like me who 1) like their wrestling to have a more "serious" edge and 2) have an affinity for guys like Harley because we grew up in a small Midwestern town and knew several people who drank too much beer, drove their cars too fast, weren't chiseled muscleheads, but would fight you to the death at the drop of a hat, sometimes for no apparent reason.

[Woof]

 

He's that friend who sometimes drinks too much and you need to send him home in cab. But you always want that guy at the bar because its never dull.

 

 

That might be the most brilliant explanation for Angle that I've ever read. Tip 'o the cap to you, sir.

[Grimmas]

 

 

I've watched a fair amount of Brisco matches since the voting deadline and part of me regrets not swapping Harley Race out for Brisco on my ballot.

Harley Race is someone I just don't get. I don't see how anyone can watch him and think GREAT. I don't know why he is still left or why I am so far off the consensus with him.

 

 

Harley goes over well with folks like me who 1) like their wrestling to have a more "serious" edge and 2) have an affinity for guys like Harley because we grew up in a small Midwestern town and knew several people who drank too much beer, drove their cars too fast, weren't chiseled muscleheads, but would fight you to the death at the drop of a hat, sometimes for no apparent reason.

 

I do hate drunks, drunk drivers and douches who get into fights for no reason. So yeah...