Post-Summerslam Raw & Smackdown

[hammerva]

No not really. I am pretty sure we have heard the same terms when Triple H was doing the same thing. It isn't a man/woman thing it is more a making sure the McMahons are the most important people on the show thing

[WingedEagle]

The constant use of the terms castration and emasculate I read online is a pretty clear indication of what the real issue is. If it was a male character doing all the exact things those terms wouldn't be used.

 

Its not at at all the issue. If it makes you happy, she generally cuts the balls off of any female wrestlers she's in a segment with as well. Not everything needs to be elevated into a social issue. Some things are simply about the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of the characters, their presentation and interaction with one another.

[Loss]

I remember in the early 2000s that Dave would write about how right or wrong, for people who saw wrestling as escapist, they didn't like seeing a woman with so much power in storylines. So whether it's the predominant factor or not (and I don't think it is at this point), it's there.

[Superstar Sleeze]

I sure as hell hope they would turn on it

Watch out! Your inner smark is showing.

[Loss]

I don't like Stephanie being portrayed the way she is either, but I also think calling her a bad performer is harsh. She's developed into a very good TV performer with experience -- great facial expressions and easy to dislike. She's miles ahead of Shane, but then again, I think she always has been.

[El-P]

I remember in the early 2000s that Dave would write about how right or wrong, for people who saw wrestling as escapist, they didn't like seeing a woman with so much power in storylines. So whether it's the predominant factor or not (and I don't think it is at this point), it's there.

 

No. Sorry. Since I was called a "weirdo" and "mysoginic" when I made that remark, I have to reiterate. No. It's not there at all when I'm taking about it.

 

I don't like Stephanie being portrayed the way she is either, but I also think calling her a bad performer is harsh. She's developed into a very good TV performer with experience -- great facial expressions and easy to dislike.

 

It says a lot about how standards have dropped off a cliff concerning "promo ability", although we're not talking about that here, really, when Stephy is considered any good. The issue is that we're not talking about promos anymore, we're talking about terrible sitcom sub-porn acting. Look at Dario Cueto in Lucha Underground. He's playing straight telenovela evil (and is great at it), and he looks like Leo DiCaprio compared to anyone on WWE TV.

[TonyPulis'Cap]

I don't like Stephanie being portrayed the way she is either, but I also think calling her a bad performer is harsh. She's developed into a very good TV performer with experience -- great facial expressions and easy to dislike. She's miles ahead of Shane, but then again, I think she always has been.

 

Couldn't agree more. Stephanie has developed into a great TV performer - and yes, always better than Shane - even if as most other agree, she can be a bit too domineering in some segments. Back in the early part of her run she was quite often the butt of jokes, but that kind of changed around the time she became much more of a visible presence corporately. She seems to pick up some pretty impressive media coverage in the business world so maybe she's reluctant to be embarrassed more often in case it hurts that image? Just a thought.

[TonyPulis'Cap]

 

I remember in the early 2000s that Dave would write about how right or wrong, for people who saw wrestling as escapist, they didn't like seeing a woman with so much power in storylines. So whether it's the predominant factor or not (and I don't think it is at this point), it's there.

 

No. Sorry. Since I was called a "weirdo" and "mysoginic" when I made that remark, I have to reiterate. No. It's not there at all when I'm taking about it.

 

I don't like Stephanie being portrayed the way she is either, but I also think calling her a bad performer is harsh. She's developed into a very good TV performer with experience -- great facial expressions and easy to dislike.

 

It says a lot about how standards have dropped off a cliff concerning "promo ability", although we're not talking about that here, really, when Stephy is considered any good. The issue is that we're not talking about promos anymore, we're talking about terrible sitcom sub-porn acting. Look at Dario Cueto in Lucha Underground. He's playing straight telenovela evil (and is great at it), and he looks like Leo DiCaprio compared to anyone on WWE TV.

 

 

Think you're being a little harsh on Steph. Wrestling has never been known for it's Laurence Olivieresque performing, but genuinely think she is one of the better ones out there right now. Agreed that Dario Cueto is fantastic in his role, you can definitely tell the difference when you put a trained actor in there compared to wrestlers, or wrestling personalities trying their best to act.

[El-P]

Last time I enjoyed Stephy was during the Daniel Bryan feud leading to Mania, and the Mania match in which she did her best Woman tribute, and she was actually really good at it. And like her husband, for once (that applies to both of them), she wasn't afraid to show some ass. It made all the difference in the world too.

[NintendoLogic]

Stephanie has been tolerable in her current role. She's not really adding anything to the product, but she's also no longer making Raw literally unwatchable for me.

[Strummer]

to be honest I think Steph has been overrated by some during this heel run from 2013- to present. I never got these "all time great promos" she was cutting (not everyone was saying. this but Wade Keller and Rob McCarron in his Raw Reports were going on like this for a long while) Good facial expressions and a good heel yes but I would not consider her a superior talker. In fact I was just having this conversation the other day. Stephanie McMahon Helmsley > modern feminist working mom evil businesswoman. She at least showed vulnerability and would sell for pretty much everyone on the roster. Now she backs down from no one.

 

As I mentioned earlier this week her and Shane should really leave TV but yeah

 

 

Oh and she was awful on the draft show. Constantly mugging and not letting anyone else get a word in. Borderline unprofessional

[Strummer]

It's Forbes reporting, who's been uneven at best with WWE coverage, but apparently the company has not ruled out Bryan wrestling again.

 

Floodgates open....

[WingedEagle]

I don't like Stephanie being portrayed the way she is either, but I also think calling her a bad performer is harsh. She's developed into a very good TV performer with experience -- great facial expressions and easy to dislike. She's miles ahead of Shane, but then again, I think she always has been.

 

I think she's a tremendous performer. When reined in she's incredibly effective. Just poor usage of a potentially strong performer.

[goc]

It's Forbes reporting, who's been uneven at best with WWE coverage, but apparently the company has not ruled out Bryan wrestling again.

 

Floodgates open....

It's not "Forbes reporting" it's an opinion column. It clearly states under that guy's name that "Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own." And I don't buy that story especially because the guy wrote that Daniel Bryan only retired due to "increased risk of injury" and completely omitted the fact that it was because a test found a brain lesion that causes seizures.

[Matt D]

I don't like Stephanie being portrayed the way she is either, but I also think calling her a bad performer is harsh. She's developed into a very good TV performer with experience -- great facial expressions and easy to dislike. She's miles ahead of Shane, but then again, I think she always has been.

Talk about purpose...

[Strummer]

The Headbangers are returning to WWE as they will face Slater and Rhyno on Smackdown on Tuesday. Sounds like a one time thing but I will admit I wanna see that match

[The Thread Killer]

I remember in the early 2000s that Dave would write about how right or wrong, for people who saw wrestling as escapist, they didn't like seeing a woman with so much power in storylines. So whether it's the predominant factor or not (and I don't think it is at this point), it's there.

 

I can't stand Stephanie McMahon's onscreen persona. When she is on TV, I usually either change the channel, or at the very least mute the volume.

 

I asked myself honestly why that is. I wondered if maybe it was some underlying subconscious misogyny on my part. But after thinking about it, I realized that wasn't the case. I don't hate female authority figure characters. I thought Vicki Guererro was outstanding in her role as Manager and GM. She was vicious mean spiteful and annoying as all hell - and she was supposed to be. But I liked how she did it.

 

Firstly, the mere sound of Stephanie's voice, the pitch, tone and octave are just highly unpleasant to the ear - the nasal whining sneer sound. Even compared to Vicki's. Secondly, I think it might have more do with the fact that I just don't think I like Stephanie McMahon's ascent to the top of the most powerful organization in the history of Professional Wrestling.

 

Remember her infamous comments on Smackdown right after 9/11? Those comments, while made years ago, encapsulate what I don't like about Stephanie McMahon. She was born, raised, and currently lives in a bubble. She only sees the world as it relates to her, from a McMahon perspective. I don't think she has any clue what it's like to have to struggle or suffer for your living. She might like being the Executive Vice President of WWE. She might even love it, but she is who she is, and has what she has, because of who her father is. She was born into privilege, and I don't care that her father might have made her work summers fetching coffee or answering phones in Stanford - the fact is she was born with a silver spoon in her mouth and as soon as it was feasible, she was given the keys to the kingdom.

 

I have to admit, I just don't like rich people who are handed massive amounts of power and have never had to pay serious dues in life. I don't care if they're male or female.

[Jimmy Redman]

I think there's a point to be made about the language people use. Johnny is right in so far as we don't often hear about Hunter or Vince or any other male domineering GM/boss figure "emasculating" the wrestlers. They use other non-gendered words like "burying", even though they are basically playing the same role and treating the wrestlers the same way. So clearly - at least in this specific context of wrestling power struggles - emasculating is something that a woman does to a man.

 

However, I think it is far more an interesting point to explore regarding language choices and gender, than it is evidence that therefore anyone who dislikes Steph McMahon being a misogynist. Especially when a. it is her job to get people to dislike her, and b. there is a long and well-documented list of perfectly legitimate grievances against Steph both as a performer and as a backstage whatever-she-is. Frankly putting forth the idea that anyone who hates her or criticises her is just being misogynist is horribly reductive, and is really not treating her as a human being with flaws and characteristics that can be debated on their merits, like anyone else in wrestling.

 

On Steph, I thought she was fantastic in 2013, during the Daniel Bryan era. Post-Summerslam she and Hunter got a LOT of screen time for their heel stuff, and there was literally no single episode of Raw where they both performed that Steph didn't vastly outperform Hunter on the mic and as a character, even though Hunter was ostensibly the main heel boss. She's had bursts of being really good, and even today could probably pick up a mic and cut an awesome heel promo. Her main issue is her lack of selling and showing ass, which is effective in small doses, but tends to kill things dead when she doesn't have it in her to look vulnerable or get her comeuppance when the time comes. She learned from all of Hunter's worst instincts in that regard.

 

Her match with Brie is a great example of that - she tormented her forever, and this was a rare opportunity for someone to actually get some physical retribution on her, but then they get to the match, and instead of telling the story of her getting her ass kicked by Brie, Steph saw it as an opportunity to show off how well she could wrestle after 3 kids and took the entire match. And then won! Steph has absolutely no idea how to be the heel who gets beat in the end. Which is the whole point of being a heel.

 

So I mean I liked her in 2013. I like her in small doses, I can laugh at all of her transparent self-aggrandizing without getting mad about it, and I think she's a great promo in a technical sense, but she has such a lack of understanding of how to be a truly effective heel, which involves being able to give as well as take. Her and Hunter are a hell of a pair, but I'd argue Hunter has even shown himself a little more willing to sell than Steph has.

[Johnny Sorrow]

It's the same reason Hillary Clinton is so hated by some. Yes, there are actual reasons why both Stephanie and Hillary are disliked . But that extra "Ooomph" of bile that comes their way is pure mysoginist bullshit from men with tiny dicks.

[MikeCampbell]

Her match with Brie is a great example of that - she tormented her forever, and this was a rare opportunity for someone to actually get some physical retribution on her, but then they get to the match, and instead of telling the story of her getting her ass kicked by Brie, Steph saw it as an opportunity to show off how well she could wrestle after 3 kids and took the entire match. And then won! Steph has absolutely no idea how to be the heel who gets beat in the end. Which is the whole point of being a heel.

 

 

I see what you're saying, but I have to disagree. Yes, Steph took the majority of the match, but, the heel is supposed to do that. Steph vs. Brie isn't exactly Ronnie Garvin vs. Jim Cornette in terms of a mismatch. And, Steph's win was due to Nikki turning heel on her sister, which should have theoretically transferred the heat from Brie/Steph to Brie/Nikki. But, it never really went anywhere, and, the Bellas just sort of kissed and made up without any explanation.

[El-P]

Remember her infamous comments on Smackdown right after 9/11? Those comments, while made years ago, encapsulate what I don't like about Stephanie McMahon.

 

Well, that too. This is a stain that will never go away as far as her being seen as despicable (in a non kayfabe way I mean).

 

Recently the whole mother hen shit is another one. She sure is really good at coopting the work of other people, in this case, other women who didn't wait for her benevolence to make a so-called "diva revolution" and worked their asses off to capture the crowd, have terrific matches and get over as fuck. They are the ones who deserve 100% of the credit.

[Coffey]

Random thought:

 

One of the long standing traditions of pro-wrestling is to always have the monster fat dude. He's always booked as a threat, has little guys pinball off of him, does the falling tower spot & gets a push before being toppled by the big hero. Yokozuna, Big Boss Man, One Man Gang, Earthquake, Kamala, etc. More recently, WWE has done it with The Big Show and Mark Henry... but both of those guys are at the end of their runs.

 

I don't really see anyone on the roster to fill that role when they're gone either. WWE has a lot of great wrestlers & young, athletic guys but who is going to be the next King Kong Bundy mold of wrestler for the guys like Finn Balòr, Sami Zayn & Seth Rollins to work with? I don't feel like Kevin Owens, Samoa Joe or Bray Wyatt exactly fit the mold. Not with their styles. I've always been a fan of those sort of feuds, even if they didn't always produce the best matches, because it's such an age old story. I can see that they're gearing up for a Braun Strowman push on RAW but he's not really a monster fat dude, he's just a big monster.

[Jesse Ewiak]

I think there are valid complains to be made about Stephanie McMahon's character on TV, but yeah, there's a healthy dose of weirdness on Reddit & Twitter of people really wanting Owens or somebody like that to Pop Up Powerbomb her because ya' know, they're not getting any dates.

[NintendoLogic]

 

Her match with Brie is a great example of that - she tormented her forever, and this was a rare opportunity for someone to actually get some physical retribution on her, but then they get to the match, and instead of telling the story of her getting her ass kicked by Brie, Steph saw it as an opportunity to show off how well she could wrestle after 3 kids and took the entire match. And then won! Steph has absolutely no idea how to be the heel who gets beat in the end. Which is the whole point of being a heel.

 

 

I see what you're saying, but I have to disagree. Yes, Steph took the majority of the match, but, the heel is supposed to do that. Steph vs. Brie isn't exactly Ronnie Garvin vs. Jim Cornette in terms of a mismatch. And, Steph's win was due to Nikki turning heel on her sister, which should have theoretically transferred the heat from Brie/Steph to Brie/Nikki. But, it never really went anywhere, and, the Bellas just sort of kissed and made up without any explanation.

 

 

Summerslam was her first match in over a decade, and she had never been portrayed as all that competent when she did wrestle semi-regularly. It would've been one thing if she had used her authority to stack the deck in her favor or something like that. But she just bulldozed Brie like she was Bull Nakano. If you compare it to how Cena/Laurinaitis was worked in 2012, it's like night and day. And Johnny Ace was actually an accomplished wrestler.

[Strummer]

poor Brie in that feud. Worst booked babyface ever