The Cancellation of Jim Cornette

[SomethingSavage]

I was reading over some of these comments and just had some potpourri thoughts to add.

To be clear, I never said Omega wasn't successful. Clearly, the guy is successful. He's earning a good living, doing something he loves. I'm not going to take that away from him.

What I did say is his character stinks. Because it's borderline nonexistent. And I said his mannerisms are goofy and quirky. Because they are. All those things are major elements in the makeup of a wrestling match. The body of the match shouldn't hinge on athleticism alone.

I think my last post got a little lost in the "over" discussion, which wasn't my intent. Because there's a long list of even mid-card lifers who are more over than Omega. But I believe a more level comparison could be made with Cody Rhodes.

Cody is genuinely over. He feels over. He ACTS over. He is perceived by the audience to be over. The guy is embraced. Cody has established a connection with crowds that I can't see Omega ever achieving in the States.

And nobody on God's green earth is likely to make a case for Cody being more athletic or more (cross)fit than Kenny. But Cody sure as shit feels more over. Because he understands character. He understands engaging the audience. He understands storytelling.

And, like it or not, those things matter so much more in the body of a wrestling match than athleticism or cardio.

I'm not convinced that Cody's name doesn't sell an event every bit as much (or more) than Kenny's name in 2019.

1 hour ago, The Thread Killer said:

I agree, and that's probably my biggest issue with Omega's strange affectations, right there.  We all know Pro Wrestling is fake, but we also know that as fans we're supposed to buy into the fact that the basic concept is two guys wanting to beat each other in a wrestling match, and when the emotions are high it boils down to two guys wanting to beat each other up. That requires the guy on offense to realistically pretend to be aggressive and the guy on the receiving end to realistically sell that aggression. I've seen Omega sell pain, but in general his reactions don't seem normal when considering the situation. To me it always looks like somebody is trying to kick his ass, and his response is to do a little dance, shake his head and point at something.  That's hard to buy into, from a Pro Wrestling psychology standpoint.  He usually takes me out of the match with his reactions.

And that's not even getting into his promos.  I've only ever seen Omega promos in ROH and AEW and I can't ever remember seeing him act at all realistically aggressive during a promo.  I've never seen him sell actual emotional investment in the match. He always sounds like he's in a fairly pleasant mood, or at worst he's mildly annoyed due to some minor inconvenience.  Remember his promo on Dynamite at the end of November?  He had just been through a hideous death match with Jon Moxley, and was heading into another important match with Pac so his natural response was to...cut a comedy promo.

If the biggest defense people can come up with is "look how over he is" then that doesn't say much for him.  I've said it a million times here at PWO, since when is popularity an indicator of how good something actually is?  I always use my tried and true example of Nickelback. They can sell out arenas all day long, that doesn't make them good.  Or let's use a Pro Wrestling example, WWE Raw has more viewers than AEW Dynamite, does that mean Raw is a better show?  Of course not.   Kenny Omega is very athletic and he's capable of being part of very good Pro Wrestling matches, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence that he is one of the best in the world right now, never mind of all time.  That is one hell of a stretch.  When it comes to Kenny I am more inclined to agree with Jim Cornette than I am the average AEW fan, but as I said previously...I am a 50 year old guy who has been a Pro Wrestling fan for 37 years. I am hardly AEW's target demographic.

 

Yep.

Omega simply hasn't shown that he's equipped to hit any emotional beats. What even is there to connect to? What is even mildly interesting about the guy?

I know I have read reviews and even heard podcasts where people say they were emotionally invested in his IWGP run, but I followed along through all of that and no. That wasn't ever the story the promotion was presenting, and it certainly wasn't any big dramatic journey Kenny Omega himself ever sold or told through anything. Not in the matches. Not in promos.

It's like fan fic some fans have created in their minds and just attached to the series. And don't get me wrong. Some of the matches were great. The action with Okada was tremendous at times. But there was no big suspenseful chase or pursuit. There was no big dramatic thread. It was just matches with finishes that built off the foundation of what came before it.

And that's not dismissing what those guys did. I'm just saying. There's nothing to the character or his approach to storytelling. I truly believe Kenny Omega just isn't equipped with the tools to approach wrestling in that way - in any deep, meaningful way. It's all flash and fireworks and fizzle with him. It's about flexing what he can do physically.

With some twirls and tip toeing and shit sprinkled throughout for flamboyance or whatever. I don't know.

The big draws in wrestling are rarely going to be the most physically gifted. Because a casual audience isn't going to be attracted by a 90-fucking minute wrestling match. That shit is appealing to no one outside the bubble. And probably only a small portion of those inside the bubble anyway.

It's the talk. The hype. The suspense. The character. The conflict of said characters. That's the draw.

When it comes to those things that matter most, Kenny Omega is absolutely bankrupt. He's going into that gunfight *pew pew* shooting blanks.

[WingedEagle]

9 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

 

The whole "Jim Cornette is irrelevant in 2019" argument needs to stop, honestly.  That's like tuning into your local Classic Rock/Oldies station and then acting surprised that they're not playing Post Malone.  Cornette has made it abundantly clear (pretty much constantly) that he doesn't want to be "relevant" to "modern" Pro Wrestling, because he hates it.  He's relevant to his own fan base, and whether some people like it or not, he has a huge fan base.  Some of them are older fans like myself who like listening to his stories about Pro Wrestling history and the territories.  Some of them dislike modern Pro Wrestling as much as he does and agree with his opinions on that.  Some of them are just moronic drooling sycophants who will agree blindly with anything he says and harass and troll the people he doesn't like. It's a very large demographic, whether some fans want to admit that or not. You can disagree with him, you can even hate him but if you cannot possibly deny his popularity or the fact that his views echo those of a large number of Pro Wrestling fans. I agree with @Tenese Sarwieh, the people who are irate that he's still out there and still ranting and raving about modern Pro Wrestling should probably just ignore him...because he's not going away anytime soon.

That's nonsense.  I love older wrestling, newer wrestling and any wrestling in between, but that's simply not the point here.  This Post Malone/Classic Rock business is garbage.  Arn's podcast is terrific and only wish there were more content like it out there, whether spoken or written.  in contrast, Cornette isn't discussing any era in which he played a prominent part or is especially familiar with.  Apparently he doesn't think there's much of a market for that because his gimmick is literally inflammatory hyperbole for the sake thereof.

 

[The Thread Killer]

6 minutes ago, WingedEagle said:

Cornette isn't discussing any era in which he played a prominent part or is especially familiar with. 

That's just not accurate or true. The entire premise of Cornette's Drive-Thru podcast is to answer fan questions, just like Arn Anderson's podcast does every other week.  And more often than not, the questions are about Cornette's career and the Territories.  If you want to make the argument that "The Jim Cornette Experience" is nothing but Cornette ranting about modern Pro Wrestling and AEW in particular, I can buy that...but to say he doesn't discuss any era in which he played a part is totally incorrect.  And he has an encyclopedic knowledge of Pro Wrestling history up to the modern era, so you also can't honestly say that he doesn't discuss eras he is familiar with.  Hell, that is the main reason I listen to his podcasts.  If he didn't talk about history and his career and did nothing except rant about modern Pro Wrestling I most likely wouldn't listen to him.

[gordi]

Corny's character that he is playing - which is probably very close to who he really is - is a relic of the past who is all steamed up that the world has passed him by. He has been left behind, and his way of dealing with that is to endlessly harp on the flaws - both real and perceived - of the people and thing that have passed him by and left him behind. His audience is mostly people who feel similarly frustrated by their place in the modern world, and there are a lot of them.

People who are happy with the way things are are unlikely to enjoy what he does. That is OK. We don't have to listen to him.

Omega's character that he is playing - which is probably very close to who he really is - is a video-game-playing, manga-reading, Japanophile ubernerd. He's living in a world where nerds like him are being catered to by pop culture and the internet and he's loving it. He's more about joyful expression through movement than he is about aggression and anger. His audience is mostly people who are similarly delighted with their present lot in life. His audience is happy nerds, and there are a lot of us.

People who are unhappy with their present lot in life and/or the current nerd-dominant culture are unlikely to enjoy what he does. That's OK. There are lots of other options out there. 

I am sure that some people exist who can enjoy both Corny podcasts and Kenny matches... but their entire appeal is based on diametrically opposed mindsets. It's cool that both exist. Pro wrestling is for everyone. It's for old men angrily yelling at clouds that the Kaiser stole their string, and it's for young gender fluid snowflakes happily pointing their finger guns at things. And it's for everyone in between.

[SomethingSavage]

Lulz @ the idea that someone has to be unhappy with their lot in life if they enjoy Cornette. While I enjoyed the nice bow at the end of your post about pro wrestling being a place for everybody (very cool), that part was just hot garbage. Because I've never been at more peace in my life than I am now in my 30s, but I still enjoy the shit out of Corny.

And I still recognise that Kenny Omega is terrible. Although, right. I'm not a gender fluid snowflake. So I suppose you pegged that one correctly. *Shrug*

29 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said:

That's just not accurate or true. The entire premise of Cornette's Drive-Thru podcast is to answer fan questions, just like Arn Anderson's podcast does every other week.  And more often than not, the questions are about Cornette's career and the Territories.  If you want to make the argument that "The Jim Cornette Experience" is nothing but Cornette ranting about modern Pro Wrestling and AEW in particular, I can buy that...but to say he doesn't discuss any era in which he played a part is totally incorrect.  And he has an encyclopedic knowledge of Pro Wrestling history up to the modern era, so you also can't honestly say that he doesn't discuss eras he is familiar with.  Hell, that is the main reason I listen to his podcasts.  If he didn't talk about history and his career and did nothing except rant about modern Pro Wrestling I most likely wouldn't listen to him.

Exactly what I came here to say.

Cornette is smart enough to appease both sides of his own audience. The Drive-Thru is very much its own thing (and honestly my favorite) with an emphasis on Cornette's stories and booking philosophies.

The Experience is what usually makes the "headlines" (if you would even call it that) and receives attention though, because that's where he goes to rant & rave about the state of modern wrestling.

Both are enjoyable enough. But yeah. Cornette isn't strictly bitching about what he hates. Just listen to the guy gush over some of his own stories and memories of Memphis with Scott Bowden for a second. Or hear how he handled a specific situation in Smoky Mountain. You can practically hear the passion dripping from his every word.

You're completely dismissing him based on some shitty article you read or something, because you're clearly not listening to his shows if you believe any of that.

[SomethingSavage]

Oh. And regarding Omega's character - okay? So he's a joyful, expressive Japanophile. How does that translate to combat sports? That's the obstacle on his shoulders. That's the whole purpose and point. He's supposed to find a way to apply that. He simply hasn't. The guy doesn't convey any message or meaning. He's just gamer nerd guy who is happy to be here and always pleasant? He's basically a Teen Titan Go! cartoon.

Sorry, but that's not an interesting character in pro wrestling. Maybe it could be. Hell, maybe it has been. But Omega sure as shit hasn't cracked that code for himself.

[Coffey]

6 minutes ago, SomethingSavage said:

Oh. And regarding Omega's character - okay? So he's a joyful, expressive Japanophile. How does that translate to combat sports? That's the obstacle on his shoulders. That's the whole purpose and point. He's supposed to find a way to apply that. He simply hasn't. The guy doesn't convey any message or meaning. He's just gamer nerd guy who is happy to be here and always pleasant?

He's Dolph Ziggler if he went to Japan. 

[MoS]

As far as that Twitter video about those guys wrestling, I have not followed the controversy, but I saw a tweet from Cornette "apologising" and saying he was wrong cuz he did not see the video with the audio. Was he being genuine or was it sarcasm?

As far as criticism of the current product, look, I don't much like Omega, I think he is a bit of a dork - which is different from geek in my millennial mind - but whatever reasonable criticisms Cornette has of the product is drowned out by the sheer volume of over-the-top, ridiculous ranting about the "outlaw mud-show wrestling" that inevitably accompanies the criticism. I also think it is naive to say that Cornette does not "want" to he relevant to modern wrestling; he might hate it but at this point it is earning him money. However, when the messenger makes it about himself as much as the message, then he cannot complain about people targeting him instead of focusing on the message. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you are going to turn it into a gimmick, well no shit, people will react that way. And if that means they stop valuing what you say, then you really can't cry foul. And Cornette does cry foul on way too many occasions.

He decries every match Riho is in as outlaw mudshow wrestling, and says that Britt Baker is the one with most potential. This is despite solid empirical evidence that Riho matches increase viewership amongst their targeted demographic on TV every time, while Baker matches and segments do the exact opposite. But he does not stop there. He basically implies that the only reason Riho has a job is because Omega is sleeping with her. It does not matter how correct he is about Omega or Joey Janela if he buries his own valid points under a pile of his own bullshit.

[gordi]

Real-life combat sports are absolutely chock-full of martial arts and fitness nerds these days. They are generally doing better in MMA than the angry, blustery, tough-man types. The polite, self-effacing GSP and the always pleasant, in-ring-clowning Spider Silva were the greatest fighters of their generation. Most people liked them and wanted to see them win. Kenny's attempts to play a "going crazy" character in AEW have not resonated with me at all... but the video game nerd who delights in his own athleticism, has an endless gas tank, and just keeps coming at full speed? He has won me over wit that one. It is a character I can get behind. I like him and I want to see him win.

I was against that go-go-go style for the longest time. I still don't like the risks that these wrestlers expose themselves to so very often. The last Ibushi vs Naito match legitimately pissed me right off. However, that is what pro wrestling has become. If I don't want to watch it, there is an absolute ton of old footage that I  can very easily watch instead. Or I can just skip forward to Cody's match or segment, or Ishii's match... 

I kinda forced myself to give Kenny and the Young Bucks (and Ibushi and others) a chance to win me over because I have some younger friends over here who like New Japan and I thought it might be fun to enjoy watching shows with them without being the grandpa who hated everything. Also there were lots of posters here whose opinions I respect who were really enjoying their matches.

And Kenny and the Bucks won me over with their selling and their story-telling (which I hadn't expected)... and with their characters. They are young, fit, athletic, and talented, and they are enjoying that. If seeing young wrestlers express joy in the ring is something that you hate, then it's likely that most of modern pro wrestling is not for you. And that is just fine. 

For me, it was well worth getting over myself and learning to enjoy it.

For people who can't or won't do that, Corny's podcasts are going to be a more enjoyable alternative than Kenny and Young Bucks matches.

(Though to be honest I will always prefer, say, Taue vs Kawada CC '95 or the Piper vs Valentine Dog Collar Chain Match - true tough guy stuff with no evident expression of joy at all to anything worked in the go-go-go style - Kenny's style will never be my fave, but it isn't terrible and it isn't wrong).

@SomethingSavage I am sincerely happy to hear that you are happy in your life. You sometimes come across as being a little angry on here, but that suits your user name and avatar. 

I continue to believe that people who like Corny and hate Kenny are mostly people who are unhappy with the state of pro wrestling these days. I don't even see how that's a controversial take. It seems kind of self-evident.  It's equally likely that the people who like Kenny Omega matches and don't listen to Corny (any more) are happy with (or have learned to accept) the current state of pro wrestling. 

It's not that Kenny's shtick doesn't work, it's just that it doesn't work for you. It's true that Omega's ability to put butts in seats doesn't prove that he is great at pro wrestling, but it absolutely proves that his character and style work just fine for an awful lot of people. 

Corny's large podcast audience doesn't prove that he is right about pro wrestling but it does show that there are a lot of people who are similarly unhappy about the state of pro wrestling today.

 

[NintendoLogic]

50 minutes ago, MoS said:

As far as that Twitter video about those guys wrestling, I have not followed the controversy, but I saw a tweet from Cornette "apologising" and saying he was wrong cuz he did not see the video with the audio. Was he being genuine or was it sarcasm?

It was in response to someone dubbing Yakety Sax (aka the Benny Hill music) over the clip.

[MoS]

That's pretty funny yeah. 

[rovert]

 

 

 

 

14 hours ago, gordi said:

Corny's large podcast audience doesn't prove that he is right about pro wrestling but it does show that there are a lot of people who are similarly unhappy about the state of pro wrestling today.

 

I wish they or at least some of them would promote wrestlers that do wrestle are more credible style or the style they want to see. At least be the remotest constructive. 

[Coffey]

6 minutes ago, rovert said:

I wish they or at least some of them would promote wrestlers that do wrestle are more credible style or the style they want to see. At least be the remotest constructive. 

This is a really good point. Not just from the likes of Jim Cornette but even people on social media. We know, in example, that Cornette likes The Revival. It's true though, that he's constantly harping on people so much when it would be more productive to talk about the people that he enjoys. He has recently said that he likes what Cody has been doing, I believe.

I'm guilty of this myself. Sometimes it feels easier (cheaper?) to get caught up in the hate instead of praising the stuff you like.

I love Jacob Fatu & think Josef Samael is a good manager for him. I really like Salina de la Renta as a valet/business woman as well & L.A. Park can still bring it. Mance Warner I enjoy as a promo. MLW has been doing some fun things that I enjoy. I have even liked some of the Dynasty stuff & think Hammerstone might wind up in WWE some day.

I think it's cool that ROH put the world title on PCO because it feels like a reward for how hard he has been working lately. WWE still has a lot of talent that are really good, including Rusev & Roman Reigns whom I think are both great. NXT is fun with what they're doing with Keith Lee. Samoa Joe looks like he's set to have a run & was surprisingly great at commentary. AEW has done good things with Darby Allin, Luchasaurus, Cody & Jericho has been a lot of fun. The Tokyo Dome show is just around the corner and New Japan also has a lot of talent that I enjoy. Okada, Naito, Ishii, Tanahashi... Archer had a strong 2019. Also shout out to Cara Noir as I think that gimmick could be special.

[gordi]

You'd think NWA Powerrr might be the promotion or show to fill that niche. I wonder how Corny and his fan base feel about the ?Mark, though. I get a huge kick out of his shtick because it reminds me of the more ridiculous aspects of my days in the Vancouver territory studio wrestling scene, but I can easily see how some folks might be put off by it.

[C.S.]

So, Cornette is apparently suing over a couple of t-shirts made without his permission that mock him.

Quote

“My attorney Stephen P New gave these goofs the opportunity to pull down the shirts and remove the trademark application and we would all go our separate ways. Apparently Grover thinks some outlaw garbage wrestler can not only defy the law but ignore a nationally-known attorney. Now he knows he can’t, and he’s about to get a lesson in the real world. Any money we receive past expenses will be donated to charity, but our requests WILL be granted or Grover and his T-Shirt fellow will not only be begging fans for money to pay his medical bills, but also his legal bills as well.”

“If this in some way removes one of these “death match” wrestlers from exhibiting their ignorant “matches” to the public we will consider it a happy bonus for the fans and the wrestling industry. Not only are these matches in general offensive to me, but the idea of this clown asking wrestling fans to pay for his own stupidity, AND trying to make money off my name and likeness at the same time, was too much to ignore, so we are bringing some disinfectant to this disease on wrestling.”

Cornette’s attorney, Stephen P. New, also issued a statement in regards to the “Clownette” shirt in particular, adding that “the Clownette shirt will result in yet another lawsuit being filed this week with sanctions of attorneys fees and a temporary restraining order asked for.”

https://www.mandatory.com/wrestlezone/news/1161418-jim-cornette-clownette-t-shirt-statement

Quote

Ironically, Jim copied the first design and is now selling it himself. 

[Laz]

He's within his rights under parody law to profit from those shirts without Corny's permission or approval. If a wrestler with money had done the same then Corny wouldn't have a chance.

[PeteF3]

I don't think using Cornette's actual name qualifies as falling under parody protection. Note that Cornette's own pissing-on-Russo's-grave shirt takes care to block out part of Vince's name.

[Jesse Ewiak]

The one thing I'd say about NJPW's business as proof that Kenny's style is "over" is that NJPW business is doing just as well without him, and in many ways, is doing even better, at least within Japan. Also, I think there is a distinct difference between even somebody like Ibushi (at least NJPW Kota) and Omega is that yes, Ibushi goes a million miles an hour and does more stuff than I personally think, when he's wrestling a match, I feel like he's actually trying to win a match, as opposed to getting snowflakes from people on the Internet. 

But, to put a further point on the Omega business discussion, while he's obviously was important to New Japan's growth here, the fact that NJPW has continued to grow with Balor, Styles, Omega, and now White as the top foreign gaijin shows to me, that Omega wasn't as important as some of his strongest backers try to argue. I'll put it this way - I somehow doubt that if Naito or Okada jumped, but Omega stayed, that NJPW would be doing as well. 

Perhaps I'm wrong, and NJPW, at least in Japan, has WWE-ized their model so the brand draws, but I somewhat doubt that. I don't even hate Omega in the ring - I just think he's a 7.5 that people try to convince me is a 10, over and over again. 

[C.S.]

@goodhelmet Why did you respond to and then erase a comment to me? I still got a board notification for it, but now I have no idea what you said. 

[joeg]

On 12/29/2019 at 10:47 PM, Coffey said:

He's Dolph Ziggler if he went to Japan. 

No. Dolph Ziggler is a bad motherfucker who set NCAA records for pins and sleeps with famous actresses. On paper he is everything you want from a top guy. 

[WingedEagle]

1 hour ago, joeg said:

No. Dolph Ziggler is a bad motherfucker who set NCAA records for pins and sleeps with famous actresses. On paper he is everything you want from a top guy. 

Not sure one gets points for Amy Schumer.

[SirEdger]

Didn't Amy once said that she dumped Dolph because he was too athletic in bed during sex?

[Johnny Sorrow]

7 hours ago, WingedEagle said:

Not sure one gets points for Amy Schumer.

Are you kidding me? She's adorable.
And yeah, she said he was too athletic in bed. 
Which makes perfect sense.

[goodhelmet]

18 hours ago, C.S. said:

@goodhelmet Why did you respond to and then erase a comment to me? I still got a board notification for it, but now I have no idea what you said. 

I thought your post omitted Cornette donating the money to charity. When I reread your post, there was no need for my post. 

[NintendoLogic]

Meltzer had always defended Cornette even when they vehemently disagreed about modern wrestling, but it looks like Cornette wants to burn that bridge.