The Cancellation of Jim Cornette

[Dav'oh]

I think they just cooled Lee down because they're focused on other performers, stories and angles. We know they don't like anyone getting hot without their blessing, and for myriad reasons they don't want him hot at the moment. It's not to say they'll never heat him up, or that he's damaged goods. 

Maybe I'm being kind - maybe they did sabotage him, maybe Vince doesn't see anything there - but maybe it's just as simple as "it's not his time, yet".

[joeg]

Ehhh I dunno if Mark Henry ever fully bounced back from the Sexual Chocolate storyline... And I'd estimate its easier to bounce back from being The World's Strongest Man with a sex addiction than it is to bounce back from being painted as a fat guy who loses all the time. I also don't know if its fair to compare the two because most of Henry's bad comedy storylines and bad gimmicks happened before he was a finished product, Keith Lee has been ready to be a top guy for a few years now. 

[Mad Dog]

Mark Henry did salvage Smackdown ratings during his run as champion. But they also had ECW as a place for him to test run a title reign. 

I think the problem with Keith Lee run a little deeper. He's not particularly good at the style they prefer for the main event scene and that's been kind of obvious. I actually don't know what the point of NXT is if they didn't teach him how to adapt to that. I think that is easily fixable or you could adjust for style. I think the bigger issue for Lee is no one in WWE will get over any time soon. 

[Badlittlekitten]

Yep. Keith Lee's call up was one of those that makes you think "what's the point of NXT?" They stripped away everything that got him over - his look, his music, his ring style. . He's back at square one. His confidence looks shattered and he's taking trips to the PC to learn how to 'work like a big man'.

He's not dead but not looking promising either.

[Mad Dog]

I would say his age works against him too. Lee is a leg injury away from losing mobility and he's probably already in the early stages of physical decline. If he was 26, you have all the time in the world to rehab him but at 36 you're on the clock and have 5 years to get a run out of him. 

[WrestlingPower]

Catching up on the last few pages of conversation, so it appears that maybe Cornette isn’t out of touch so much as having trouble adjusting to the lack of a sports based connection between wrestling and its fans.  And the way it’s presented is somewhat to blame.  Doesn’t sound so bad.  I also don’t think it’s inherently bad or wrong for someone to lose interest and respect in popular culture and what appeals to a younger crowd.  I’m 10 years younger than Jim and I feel it’s just a natural occurrence of aging.  Is that the definition of “out of touch”?  Maybe.  Do we prefer to think this way and be totally fine with society passing us by in ways? Yes.

Regarding the comment about him having disdain for the SMW audience in pushing the Gangstas.  I think that’s a strong accusation.  He learned from the old school/Bill Watts.  In the 70s/80s, playing up racism as a desperate attempt to maintain or regain business was just one play in the wrestling playbook.  You could argue that maybe times had changed by 1995, but Jim seems to think that he properly read the mindset of people in that area of the country, but totally misread their reaction, in that they would rather stay home than pay money to boo the guys they didn’t agree with.  There were many factors that led SMW to the point they were at when he tried pushing them, and the fact their push didn’t work probably didn’t hasten the promotion’s demise by all that many months honestly.

So the subject of wrestling not be able to push or create young stars under the age of like 35.  Yes, it is a real problem.  The only modern wrestling I’m watching right now is ROH and it’s kind of crazy to see that even in a promotion of largely unknowns trying to make a name for themselves, there an amazing amount of guys there with 5-10 years of experience who honestly need A LOT more ring time & seasoning.  I don’t know that guys get enough work in anymore to progress but so fast.  Maybe the key is finding promoters/bookers more willing to go with young, unproven guys who are “good enough” in the ring just to try something new if they have something character wise.  But yeah wrestling is in real trouble if they keep appealing to the 35+ crowd with guys of the same age bracket.  It is kind of crazy to think that pro wrestling is like THE only sport where you really don’t peak until your late 30s/early 40s.

[sek69]

2 minutes ago, WrestlingPower said:

Catching up on the last few pages of conversation, so it appears that maybe Cornette isn’t out of touch so much as having trouble adjusting to the lack of a sports based connection between wrestling and its fans.  And the way it’s presented is somewhat to blame.  Doesn’t sound so bad.  I also don’t think it’s inherently bad or wrong for someone to lose interest and respect in popular culture and what appeals to a younger crowd.  I’m 10 years younger than Jim and I feel it’s just a natural occurrence of aging.  Is that the definition of “out of touch”?  Maybe.  Do we prefer to think this way and be totally fine with society passing us by in ways? Yes.

Yes, clearly Jim is longing for the days of sports-based connections in wrestling like getting his face shoved in cakes and getting tarred and feathered. 

Jim doesn't like today's wacky wrestling bullshit because it's different from the wacky wrestling bullshit that was popular in his day, 

He's not the target audience for sure, and on that point it's fair that it doesn't appeal to him, but it really amuses me when old timers act like pro wrestling was SERIIOUS BUSINESS ONLY in their day and not just as full of wacky bullshit. 

[Bix]

11 hours ago, WrestlingPower said:

Regarding the comment about him having disdain for the SMW audience in pushing the Gangstas.  I think that’s a strong accusation.  He learned from the old school/Bill Watts.  In the 70s/80s, playing up racism as a desperate attempt to maintain or regain business was just one play in the wrestling playbook.  You could argue that maybe times had changed by 1995, but Jim seems to think that he properly read the mindset of people in that area of the country, but totally misread their reaction, in that they would rather stay home than pay money to boo the guys they didn’t agree with.  There were many factors that led SMW to the point they were at when he tried pushing them, and the fact their push didn’t work probably didn’t hasten the promotion’s demise by all that many months honestly.

For what it's worth, there ARE other stories out there about him explicitly looking down at the east Tennessee/mountain fans as dumb hicks... even though the money towns in SMW were liberal college towns.

[NintendoLogic]

Calling Knoxville and Johnson City liberal in anything but a relative sense is a bit of stretch, I think. Also, didn't the Gangstas do pretty well in those bigger cities? It was the small towns where fans hated them so much they wouldn't even show up to pay for the privilege of cussing them out.

[AA484]

Asheville is liberal now but I'm not sure about 25 years ago.  Having lived in the area my whole life I'm not sure which liberal cities are being referred to.  Maybe Boone.

[Loss]

Louisville.

[C.S.]

Plus, even if a city is liberal, that doesn't necessarily guarantee that the rasslin' fans attending those SMW shows in their hometown would lean that way. 

[Big Pete]

I think fans confuse what Cornette actually wants out of the product. He doesn't necessarily want a sports-based product, he wants television stars who are larger than life and come across as genuine people. He doesn't necessarily hate comedy in Pro Wrestling, but he believes there's a time and place and when you start incorporating that into high stakes matches it takes away from the match. The same deal with hardcore wrestling where it just goes too far and doesn't even resemble a wrestling match or even a fight.

While a sports-based presentation lends itself to that, he's generally been very complimentary towards guys like Eddie Kingston and Darby Allin who don't fit the mould. The reason being, they either treat themselves seriously or they have enough charisma that can be marketed heavily.

Jim doesn't have time for the Young Bucks because they don't really have characters. Jim has often said they could work as obnoxious heels but since they're not really committing to any characters it's hard to get invested. His biggest issue is their comebacks and how Matt Jackson will Hulk Up to absolutely absurd lengths.

One point I'd be curious to find out and I'm not sure if @The Thread Killer would know, but has Jim ever been able to distinguish between why he's happy to call Shawn Michaels one of the best of all-time, but not Kenny Omega? You would think a lot of the complaints he has against Omega about the theatrics and referring to himself as the best performer could be levelled at Shawn? The only time I've really only heard them compared is when Jim points out that he is able to see through his bias' and will compliment people he dislikes even if he hates them.

Outside of that, I think Jim is fine with comedy being in the show, as long as it serves the show in some fashion and it comes off as organic. When there is obvious co-operation, or they're filming it like it's a television show that's what he personally hates. Especially since it came into vogue during Russo's tenure in the WWF.

Essentially above all else, Jim wants to see stars on the shows and he just doesn't seen that in the Chuck Taylors, Marko Stunts, Rihos, Orange Cassidys etc. who are either niche characters or just utter goofballs.

[NintendoLogic]

There's always been comedy and wackiness in wrestling (Cornette certainly participated in his fair share), but there's a smirking meta element to a lot of modern wrestling comedy where wrestling itself is the butt of the joke rather than a particular heel. It's the same instinct behind kitsch. It's for people who want to appreciate low culture but have to maintain a sense of ironic detachment so no one mistakes them for the rubes who sincerely enjoy it.

[The Thread Killer]

8 hours ago, Big Pete said:

One point I'd be curious to find out and I'm not sure if @The Thread Killer would know, but has Jim ever been able to distinguish between why he's happy to call Shawn Michaels one of the best of all-time, but not Kenny Omega? You would think a lot of the complaints he has against Omega about the theatrics and referring to himself as the best performer could be levelled at Shawn? The only time I've really only heard them compared is when Jim points out that he is able to see through his bias' and will compliment people he dislikes even if he hates them.

That's a good question.

You're right...Cornette gives credit or praise to Michaels very begrudgingly.  He has gone out of his way to say that Shawn Michaels is one of the best he has ever seen in terms of in ring work, but at the same time he has also said that Michaels is probably the biggest asshole he ever worked with, aside from Buzz Sawyer and maybe Ole Anderson...so that's some pretty rarefied air there.  Cornette was front row center to see Michaels at his all time worst during the Vader feud in 96, in terms of acting like a spoiled, entitled prima donna backstage..  Not to mention, he definitely holds a grudge because Shawn Michaels actually injured him at one point by not taking care of him during a spot where Cornette interfered in one of the Vader matches.  I forget if it was on a house show or if it was during the SummerSlam 96 Main Event.  I'm pretty sure it was during the SummerSlam match, and Cornette and Last talked about that during the "watch along" they did for that match on Corny's Drive-Thru last summer. Cornette also hated the way that Shawn Michaels treated Jose Lothario backstage. As much as Cornette talks shit about Omega as a person...he has certainly blistered the hell out of Shawn Michaels over the years.

If you listen to that watch along Cornette did of the SummerSlam 96 Main Event, you will hear most of his criticisms of Michaels as a worker, as well.  If I recall correctly, Cornette claims that Michaels knew how to make his moves look good, but he wouldn't adapt his style to fit the type of opponent he was facing...one of Cornette's big criticisms of Michaels has been that Michaels always had to "get his shit in" whether it actually fit into the match or not, and that is a similar complaint he has regarding Omega and most "modern" Pro Wrestlers.  I can't honestly say that I disagree there.  I think a lot of guys go into a match with a list of spots that they are determined to execute, regardless of whether the layout and psychology of the match actually call for it or not.

If I had to guess, I would say that the reasons Cornette is willing to cut Shawn Michaels some slack over Kenny Omega boils down to two big factors: training and selling.  Cornette has a ton of respect for Jose Lothario and he knows that Michaels was at least trained in an "old school" manner and in his own way, Michaels was protective of the business...as long as it suited him.  Where Cornette has been most critical of Michaels is when he and his friends in the "Kliq" did stuff to "kill the business" most notably the Curtain Call incident at Madison Square Garden.  Cornette felt Michaels should have pretty much been blackballed from the entire business for that.  But Cornette at least respects how Michaels was trained, and who trained him.

With Omega, Cornette has always disliked him due to the history between Kenny Omega and Harley Race.  It's been pretty well documented that when he was coming up in the business, Omega attended one of Race's training camps. After watching Omega work Harley assigned Kenny to the beginners class because he thought Omega didn't have a good grasp of the basic fundamentals of the business. Omega was apparently insulted and offended by this, and has given a bunch of interviews where he basically implied that Harley Race was an out of touch, old fashioned Pro Wrestling veteran.  As we all know, Harley Race is one of those guys that is pretty much universally respected by his peers...so when Omega talked some shit about Harley Race, and when Race claimed Omega didn't have a good grasp of basic Pro Wrestling fundamentals...that was pretty much it for Omega in Cornette's opinion, I think.  Cornette is definitely one of those "respect those who came before you" guys.

I have heard Cornette compliment (once again...very begrudgingly) Shawn Michaels ability to sell. (Having said that, Cornette has also blistered Michaels at times for when he doesn't sell.)  But I know one of the many things that drives Cornette nuts about Omega is his selling...either he doesn't do it at all, he does it very briefly, or when he does sell it is by waving his arms around and bugging his eyes out.  I think selling is one of the main areas that Cornette thinks Michaels has it over Omega in a big way.

I think Cornette views Michaels and Omega on pretty much the same level when it comes to ego and backstage behavior...and if anything I think Cornette probably thinks Michaels was a bit worse.  But I think he feels Michaels was a better worker and had a better background, especially when it came to selling.

[Matt D]

9 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said:

If I had to guess, I would say that the reasons Cornette is willing to cut Shawn Michaels some slack over Kenny Omega boils down to two big factors: training and selling.  Cornette has a ton of respect for Jose Lothario and he knows that Michaels was at least trained in an "old school" manner and in his own way, Michaels was protective of the business...as long as it suited him.  Where Cornette has been most critical of Michaels is when he and his friends in the "Kliq" did stuff to "kill the business" most notably the Curtain Call incident at Madison Square Garden.  Cornette felt Michaels should have pretty much been blackballed from the entire business for that.  But Cornette at least respects how Michaels was trained, and who trained him.

I always personally put Michaels in the same category as a guy like Bruiser Brody. He understood wrestling. He had an excellent ability to do most of the things one needed to do to have an excellent pro wrestling match. Often times, however, he used that understanding to accomplish personal goals and not what would make for the best (or even most productive match). He also did a number of things that he thought he had to do in order to ensure that he got over and stayed over, often to the detriment of the match. Basically he used his power for evil, not good. (Michaels has an extra category for his acting where he had an expansive vision for what a match could be but couldn't actually execute that vision; modern NXT has sort of raised the question of whether any wrestler could and how valid the vision was in the first place).

[Log]

Reading @Big Pete's post up there reminds me of this headline:

https://clickhole.com/heartbreaking-the-worst-person-you-know-just-made-a-gr-1825121606/

Edit: To be clear, I mean Cornette as the "worst person you know", not you Big Pete!

Cornette makes so many good points that I totally agree with, even if I disagree with his overall opinion on a wrestler.  Like, the point about Matt Jackson's "Hulk up".  Matt is not a dude who should be northern lights suplexing two guys at once.  He's just not.  He gets in there and starts tossing guys around, sometimes two at a time, like he's Brian Cage (or what Brian Cage should be, but that's another topic).  I like the Bucks overall, but that's a great point.

I just wish Cornette would've started getting more attention for his legitimate points instead of his looney rants.  We'd all be better off.

[El-P]

1 hour ago, Log said:

Matt is not a dude who should be northern lights suplexing two guys at once.  He's just not.

Except there's no reason why not. No reason that pertains to real life, because big guy with muscle doesn't equal strong (nor tough); no reason that pertains to pro-wrestling as basically producing signs that are understood (and accepted) by an audience. Matt Jackson does a double nothern light suplex and it works all time (in term of execution, bumping and selling by the opponents and reaction by the audience). Therefore, there's no reason at all to say he shouldn't do this or that, unless you're applying a very limitating grid of what you *think* *should* be done in the context of a pro-wrestling match, which is what Cornette (and others) do all the time.

Except it's wrong, because there's no rule whatsoever of what *should* be done. What people think are "rules" (like : a big guy should always work this way, a tag team match should be only worked this way) are basically just old habits and tropes that people think are best, usually because that's what they grew up on but also because they attribute false values (including "moral" ones) to them for strictly subjective reasons.

[Infinit]

1 hour ago, Log said:

I just wish Cornette would've started getting more attention for his legitimate points instead of his looney rants.  We'd all be better off.

Maybe Jim should make less looney rants?

[Blehschmidt]

8 minutes ago, Infinit said:

Maybe Jim should make less looney rants?

He absolutely should. However, most of his "Cult of Cornette" followers are tuned in for those rants, and they are lining his pockets with podcast revenue and buying his merch.

Sure, some of them like us may enjoy hearing Corny reminisce about Ron Starr's time in Continental. But the biggest portion of them are there anymore to listen to him rant and rave about Omega, and the Bucks, and whatever happened on Raw, and Janela, and so on, and so on. At this point he has worked himself into a shoot, because if he stops doing looney rants, there goes his cash cow.

 

[El-P]

Honestly this thread is beating on a dead horse soooo much. I mean, if you want to criticize the current stuff, you can do it without referring to that old sad carny whose only activity is hate-watching for $ purposes. This is so pathetic, honestly. 

[The Thread Killer]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

I always personally put Michaels in the same category as a guy like Bruiser Brody. He understood wrestling. He had an excellent ability to do most of the things one needed to do to have an excellent pro wrestling match. Often times, however, he used that understanding to accomplish personal goals and not what would make for the best (or even most productive match). He also did a number of things that he thought he had to do in order to ensure that he got over and stayed over, often to the detriment of the match. Basically he used his power for evil, not good. (Michaels has an extra category for his acting where he had an expansive vision for what a match could be but couldn't actually execute that vision; modern NXT has sort of raised the question of whether any wrestler could and how valid the vision was in the first place).

That's an excellent point and a very interesting comparison.  And now that you've made that point...you're right. There are actually some significant similarities between Michaels and Brody. You would never think there would be on first glance, but behind the scenes you're absolutely right. Both guys were physically gifted, very popular, in demand and capable of having great matches.  The only difference is that Michaels was interested in actually having good matches some of the time...whereas even though he had all the tools and was physically capable, Brody was so unprofessional he had no hesitation about deliberately stinking the joint up or putting in a half ass effort most of the time.  All he cared about was making his money and protecting his image.  Hence the seven year stretch where he did exactly zero jobs.  And remember when he used to no sell guys like crazy...there is that infamous story about he and Hansen against Steamboat and Youngblood in Japan, where Brody supposedly announced before the match he wasn't going to give his opponents any offense at all.

Hell, there is that famous story that Bruce Prichard and Jim Cornette talked about in the Houston Wrestling episode of "Back to the Territories" where Brody was unhappy about his payoff for a match against Jim Duggan so he just sat cross-legged in the middle of the ring and wouldn't sell or do anything.  I remember Cornette saying that as much as he respected Brody, that was definitely a case of a guy "going into business for himself" and "exposing the business."

[The Thread Killer]

28 minutes ago, El-P said:

Honestly this thread is beating on a dead horse soooo much. I mean, if you want to criticize the current stuff, you can do it without referring to that old sad carny whose only activity is hate-watching for $ purposes.

If people are still enjoying the conversation and participating in it, I fail to see the problem.  If you don't like this thread, don't post in it.  I doubt your "contributions" would be missed.

28 minutes ago, El-P said:

This is so pathetic, honestly. 

Pathetic like whenever somebody says anything even remotely critical about Kenny Omega or The Young Bucks, feeling compelled to leap to their defense? That kind of pathetic?

[The Thread Killer]

41 minutes ago, Blehschmidt said:

But the biggest portion of them are there anymore to listen to him rant and rave about Omega, and the Bucks, and whatever happened on Raw, and Janela, and so on, and so on. At this point he has worked himself into a shoot, because if he stops doing looney rants, there goes his cash cow.

That's the problem, right there.  I was as big of a Jim Cornette fan as you're likely to find (especially here at PWO) and I have long since thrown in the towel when it comes to listening to his podcasts.  And hell...I agree with most of what he says about modern Pro Wrestling. (Most...not all.) But he just bores the shit out of me now. He sacrificed his old audience for his new audience...which is fine.  He's making money, so more power to him.  But I think it is shortsighted of him.  I honestly don't think his whole "bash modern wrestling 24/7" act has much of a shelf life.  

He had a much smaller, but devoted base of fans who wanted to hear him talk about historical Pro Wrestling, the territories, etc...and he has basically thrown them over for his new audience.  The Drive-Thru is essentially shock jock talk radio now.  When these new fans are gone, or when he finally goes too far and says something so outrageous that he is held accountable for it, where will he be then?  And then problem is, he's going to have to keep saying more and more outlandish crap to keep his current audience entertained.  This isn't going to go anywhere good for him in the long run.  He might not see it this way, but I honestly think Brian Last is pulling his strings and then sitting back and counting the cash...but that cash isn't going to keep coming forever.

[El-P]

14 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said:

Pathetic like whenever somebody says anything even remotely critical about Kenny Omega or The Young Bucks, feeling compelled to leap to their defense? That kind of pathetic?

Pathetic like an old guy who instead of enjoying himself after a great career is forcing himself to do something he hates to cater to an audience of haters, because apparently it makes him some dough. Life is too short. He's obviously not gonna change *anything* about where pro-wrestling is now nor where it's going (which is something no one knows about, and that's the exciting part). Hey, maybe he's getting some elation about hating something or someone, his track record certainly seems to indicate as much. But then again, it's a sad way of reaching for joy. If Corny and his followers get schadenfreude out of spending time watching something they hate, well, I guess to each their own... 

BTW, my defense of Matt really was about something I feel very strongly about pro-wrestling in general, so it's really more about this than about the Bucks themselves (I'm well beyond the idea of having to "defend" them like I would some guys I like from IMPACT for instance, the Bucks & Omega are the zeitgeist).