Most unselfish top guy

[MoS]

@joeg's excellent thread about winning streaks made me think of this. It has to be between Cena, Rock and Flair, isn't it? ALl of them have ridiculous losses on the record. 

If I had to go with one, I would pick Rock. Cena had the more squashy, jobber-y losses, but he was also booked like a superman in some of his matches. Rock's run was much briefer (although obviously had much higher highs) and even during that run, he was jobbing clean to Big Bossman, E&C, and even tapping to a Chris Benoit crossface.

And this is something I would like to be discussed, should a top guy be unselfish? Like of course they should not sandbag their opponents, but do we really need THE GUY to lose too much? Wrestling is not real sport, but Michael Jordan won 6 championships in 8 years, was basically the Hogan of wrestling, and that never stopped his drawing power. The difference of course is that pro wrestling is scripted and thus to ensure the health of the business, you have to make new stars. But where's the line? What's the balance? Should Hogan have traded wins with Roddy Piper in 1985?

[El-P]

Jushin Liger. Because not only was he the top star of his division, but he was also the booker.

Rock is probably the best instance of a top guy losing so much, but it was not his choice. Of course he could have "lost his smile" but who knows how that would have ended up, Austin basically shoot himself in the foot by (rightfully) refusing to do that job to Lesnar. The powerplay was much different in a context where the business was under a monopoly that during the territory days of the WWF/WCW rivalry, that has to be taken in consideration, you just can't compare things in a vacuum.

[Graham Crackers]

Not the answer to these questions by any means but I'm always fascinated by how Maeda, who had a fair reputation as uncooperative, became top star of the second UWF and put over Takada and Funaki over the course of two years. 

[flyonthewall2983]

Bret Hart, and if we're talking behind the scenes he might be a case where that was detrimental to him and more specifically other guys on the card because he was willing to take a hit in his paycheck to be the champ. 

Bob Backlund maybe? I don't know enough of the minutiae of that timeframe, but I can't imagine that he had an ego problem about being outshone on the card by other matches and angles. I watched that Pat Patterson doc the other day and he's in it, proudly saying their matches together was the first time MSG was sold out four times in a row for the same match, and that doesn't happen because Bob got his hand raised at the end. 

I don't think Hogan should have lost at all in that first reign. The company needed to establish themselves, and having one guy on top during that time was necessary to keep the faith during that time they were taking over the country. Besides that they needed a guy who was in lock-step with Vince about going into people's territories. Piper had a real problem with that. 

 

[Mad Dog]

Yeah, you needed that big tentpole property and the only guy that fit the bill was Hulk Hogan. Hogan was that big summer blockbuster film that everyone was going to go see. He was selfish but I think a good top guy needs to be a little selfish.  I think a lot of people have legit beefs with Hogan but Piper I would argue doesn't. Hogan should never in any world have jobbed to Piper or anyone in 1985.

How about Nick Bockwinkel. He seems like a complete company man that dropped the belt when asked and would work with young talent to make them look good. His match with a rookie Magnum TA is proof of that. Also guys like Nagata, Kojima and Tenzan that seem to have accepted lower card placement and work with the young lions.

[NintendoLogic]

There was a lengthy stretch during Backlund's reign as champion when he refused to allow opponents to get nearfalls on him because he was paranoid about being double-crossed.

[Ricky Jackson]

24 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

There was a lengthy stretch during Backlund's reign as champion when he refused to allow opponents to get nearfalls on him because he was paranoid about being double-crossed.

That's an interesting one. I read Backlund's autobiography but I cant remember if he outright stated he did that or not. Superstar Graham definitely claimed Backlund was paranoid and iirc it stemmed from a match where he got Backlund to agree to a screwy finish where Graham was briefly declared the winner and new champ, or something like that. Nearfalls in general back in the day were far, far, far (infinitely) less common than today though, so claims that Backlund refused to give anyone more than a one-count may be exaggerated. Years back I watched a ton of Backlund matches and specifically remember him kicking out at one from a big, finishing type move from Sika and thinking "really, just one?", but then again, it was only Sika. That was in 1980, and later in the year he let Killer Khan get an almost 2.9 on him during a match at MSG, so he wasn't a total selfish ass lol 

[KawadaSmile]

Based on the past decade, I gotta give Roman a shout-out as well. He lost way too much to people he had no business losing to. In some regards he's kinda similar to The Rock, in which he's unselfish to a fault.

[Shrike02]

In AJPW you had rigid hierarchy but also some pretty great moments where the aces of the company (Jumbo, Misawa) would really put over guys with great selling and some very famous losses. So I'd say they were at various times very unselfish top guys.

[Johnny Sorrow]

The only time I know of where Bob was "paranoid" was before the Flair NWA vs WWF champ match in Atlanta, and there were some indicators before the match that something screwy was going on. After a phone call to Vince Sr. who then called Barnett and Crockett, things settled down leading to Flair coming up to Bob and saying, half jokingly "Don't hurt me , Bob."   

[SirEdger]

15 minutes ago, Ricky Jackson said:

That's an interesting one. I read Backlund's autobiography but I cant remember if he outright stated he did that or not. Superstar Graham definitely claimed Backlund was paranoid and iirc it stemmed from a match where he got Backlund to agree to a screwy finish where Graham was briefly declared the winner and new champ, or something like that. Nearfalls in general back in the day were far, far, far (infinitely) less common than today though, so claims that Backlund refused to give anyone more than a one-count may be exaggerated. Years back I watched a ton of Backlund matches and specifically remember him kicking out at one from a big, finishing type move from Sika and thinking "really, just one?", but then again, it was only Sika. That was in 1980, and later in the year he let Killer Khan get an almost 2.9 on him during a match at MSG, so he wasn't a total selfish ass lol 

I remember reading somewhere that there were plans first for Backlund to drop the WWF title to The Masked Superstar rather than the Iron Sheik but he refused to do so because Bill Eadie didn't have an amateur wrestling background. Never found out if that was true though.

[Ricky Jackson]

Nah, that's just some old made up newz. Backlund was a pro about the switch, although privately crushed it was finally over. As soon as Hogan signed around mid-Dec 83 the decision was made to drop the strap to Backlund's next MSG challenger (Sheik) in order to get it to Hogan asap 

[Johnny Sorrow]

There are a lot of "talking points" about Bob's reign that don't hold water once you've actually watched the footage. Kelly, Pete, Parv, and myself saw a ton of it when we were doing the Titans podcast. For instance, the whole "Bob wasn't popular in Philly" deal is patently false. Maybe at the tail end circa late 82-83, but the Philly crowds we saw were electric for Bobby Backlund.

[Shrike02]

29 minutes ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

There are a lot of "talking points" about Bob's reign that don't hold water once you've actually watched the footage. Kelly, Pete, Parv, and myself saw a ton of it when we were doing the Titans podcast. For instance, the whole "Bob wasn't popular in Philly" deal is patently false. Maybe at the tail end circa late 82-83, but the Philly crowds we saw were electric for Bobby Backlund.

They were, up until he did a face vs. face curtain jerker against Sal Bellomo, as I recall. But by then Backlund's aura and popularity had completely waned from that six year peak when he was champion.

[Johnny Sorrow]

That was one of his last matches before leaving. They also put him in the ring with Brian Blair and Tito , as Vince Jr. was trying to force a heel turn.

[Dav'oh]

16 hours ago, El-P said:

Jushin Liger

I'll second this. He even did jobs as a "special attraction" in other feds. I couldn't imagine anyone else going to Jersey All-Pro just to lose to their champ, for example (maybe Terry Funk, who could probably be nominated as well, but I'm not clear if he counts as a "top guy" in this context).
 

[C.S.]

The Rock, Daniel Bryan, Goldberg (yes, really)

Rock has been mentioned several times already, so I won't rehash that.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Bryan yet. Absolutely unselfish top guy.

My Goldberg pick probably has people scratching their heads, so I'll explain... Despite the streak, he never cared about losing. He lost to Chad Fortune, of all people, before debuting on Nitro. He has lost several times in WWE. Yes, there was hubbub that he "that doesn't work for me, brother"-ed a loss to The Fiend. But you know what? I'm okay with that. 

[sek69]

Rock to me is in a class by himself when it comes to unselfish top guys. He would go out of his way to make sure anyone lower on the card with him that did a segment with him would get some kind of shine out of it. I think breaking in when he did and being in the middle of the Bret/Shawn drama made an impression on him to not be a jerk to those below you.

[NotJayTabb]

Wasn't there a story that Goldberg wanted to put Bobby Eaton over, but had to be talked out of it? 

[funkdoc]

JDW has talked before about how Riki Choshu had a Hogan-esque reputation in Japan, and folks were worried when he became the booker in early 90s NJPW...then he proceeded to do far more jobs than anybody expected and put over the Three Musketeers strong.  Still had some moments that went against the spirit of this thread though, such as his handling of invasion angles...

EDIT: re: Backlund, it's tricky to figure out how much was him vs. the office.  He says in his autobiography that the office told him not to sell for Stan Hansen in their final MSG match, as payback for Hansen playing politics to get that match in the first place.

Terry Funk absolutely belongs in this discussion as well.  He volunteered to drop the NWA title himself, and we all know he put over a ton of guys after that.

[flyonthewall2983]

On 2/2/2021 at 6:10 PM, Mad Dog said:

 I think a lot of people have legit beefs with Hogan but Piper I would argue doesn't. Hogan should never in any world have jobbed to Piper or anyone in 1985.

I kind of understand his point of view as far as self-preservation, and keeping the heat on for his own character. "My lunchboxes gotta sell too" is a quote from one of his last shoot interviews that really sticks with me. Hogan should absolutely not have dropped the belt for any length of time during those four years, but that doesn't mean everyone had to drop like flies around him either. At least the guys he could maintain a good pace with. The monsters like Bundy and Kamala had to eat those pins eventually, but I wouldn't say quite the same of someone like Piper, Savage and Orndorff (at least until his injuries caught up with him). The audience turned Piper babyface, Savage moved on to programs with guys like Santana and Steamboat, without either of them being absolutely jobbed to Hogan (Savage doing at WM 5 not withstanding). 

[MoS]

On 2/2/2021 at 6:10 PM, Mad Dog said:

Yeah, you needed that big tentpole property and the only guy that fit the bill was Hulk Hogan. Hogan was that big summer blockbuster film that everyone was going to go see. He was selfish but I think a good top guy needs to be a little selfish.  I think a lot of people have legit beefs with Hogan but Piper I would argue doesn't. Hogan should never in any world have jobbed to Piper or anyone in 1985.

I agree with this, with the very minor caveat that I don't think anyone in 1980s WWF had any cause to complain about Hogan. I know the story about Jake Roberts DDTing Hogan and fans chanting DDT, but if Jake or anyone thinks that fans would have gone with Jake over Hogan if they had taken that feud across the horn all over the country, they are deluded. 

On 2/2/2021 at 6:53 PM, KawadaSmile said:

Based on the past decade, I gotta give Roman a shout-out as well. He lost way too much to people he had no business losing to. In some regards he's kinda similar to The Rock, in which he's unselfish to a fault.

Hate to disagree with good bubba, but I am not sure this is true. I think Roman's problem has been that he has been booked really strong, kept in main events, won against so many hardcore favourites, but..at the exact time when they should pull the trigger and put him over the top, they get cold feet. That doesn't make him look like Rock, it makes him look like Cena..except if Cena had jobbed to Hunter and Shawn at WM 22 and 23. That for the longest time was the biggest issue with Reigns. He was overpushed and was the new Super-Cena...except he really was not, cuz he would choke in his most important matches. But "most important matches" by default means that he never lost to a mid-carder or someone that came completely out of the blue. He beat Taker, he beat Cena, he beat Hunter, he beat Styles, he beat Jericho, he beat Bryan, so many people. And his losses were against Lesnar, Rollins when for whatever reason they were really pushing him, Strowman when he was so over people were comparing him to Vader, etc. His issue was that his losses were at the absolute worst time possible for him. In particular, his loss to Lesnar a couple of years ago at WM was just unforgivable. 

Rock, on the other hand, for absolutely zero reason, in 2000, when he was over like God, jobbed to Bossman for no reason. He once tapped out to Benoit's crossface when faces in WWE just did not do that. He once jobbed to E&C to lose the tag titles he had a cup of coffee with along with Taker. Hell, he lost to Triple H way more times than he should have, even though the fans thought of him as the God-King in the first half of 2000. He jobbed to Angle and really made him, after Hunter had refused to lose to Angle cuz apparently it was not realistic that a woman would ever leave a manly man like him for a mere Olympic gold medalist. And of course he jobbed to Austin, but Austin was the only one in the entire era who was above him in fan popularity and the totem pole (by the slightest of margins), so that was fine.

[Brandon-E]

I think Tanahashi and Okada qualify as unselfish top guys.

[Coffey]

I don't know if he's the MOST unselfish guy, but I want to give a nod to Cactus Jack/Mick Foley. Maybe part of it was that he could always get over with his microphone skills so he was kind of bulletproof from losses but that dude never felt like he cared about winning the top matches & I would argue he made several guys, like Triple H, Edge or Randy Orton. Or at least really helped cement them as top guys. He could be a babyface or a heel & could work super serious or complete comedy. He was pretty beloved by the fans too. I actually think as a whole he kind of gets slept on anymore, especially when people are reminiscing about the Attitude Era. Outside of maybe mentioning the whole "that'll put asses in seats" thing or of course the HIAC, it's like Foley is an afterthought but a lot of the Rock, Austin, 'Taker, HHH stuff isn't what it is without him. Hell, even as the commissioner he was helping get acts like Edge & Christian over, as a non-wrestler.

I guess the biggest knock against Foley would be he was never really the #1 guy because he was hot when Austin & Rock were also hot so he was like defacto #3 in line. Arguably behind 'Taker too. But really even before the Mankind HIAC days he was doing great shit with Shawn Michaels.

[joeg]

I think its got to be Terry Funk. First off he chose to drop the title rather than keep it because the road was fucking up his marriage and personal life, and he chose to drop it to Harley Race making Race a star in the process.... if we were to take a look at everybody he helped make a top guy or every territory he popped it would be a long list... Here's the list of guys who got the rub from Terry Funk after his NWA title reign- Harley Race, Giant Baba, Jumbo Tsuruta, Stan Hansen, Bruiser Brody, Dusty Rhodes, Jerry Lawler, Carlos Colon, Hulk Hogan, The Road Warriors, The Invaders, Ric Flair, Atushi Onita, Mick Foley, Masato Tanaka, Hayabusa, Raven, Sandman, Sabu, Shane Douglas, Tommy Dreamer, Steve Corino. As a former world champ he spent 25 years putting anyone and everyone over. He's also responsible for All Japan's early success as well as giving some sort of credibility to FMW, ECW, IWA and MLW. There's a long list of wrestlers that never would have had careers without Terry Funk and quite a few promotions that never would have gotten off the ground without him. If you look at his career from when he loses the world championship in 1977 until 2003ish he does nothing but show up in a territory, spend a little bit of time there getting somebody over and improving their gate then take some time off. He does this over and over in multiple territories around the globe for 25 years. 

 

As for if Hogan should have traded wins with Piper- nope. Probably yes with Orndorff before Orndorff got hurt. I thought the feeling at the time was that Piper wasn't healthy enough to work the full schedule required of a WWF champ and there was no trusting Piper to return the favor. And Piper was so over he didn't need the belt.