Undertaker > Hogan

[ohtani's jacket]

There's a difference between being able to successfully identify what medium a celebrity or character originates from and actually knowing who they are in any sort of meaningful way. If I'm reading Loss correctly, the big thing he's saying is that people know Hulk Hogan as the definitive professional wrestler...and that's it.

The trouble is that if you want to argue that pop culture iconography requires a greater level of recognition than simply knowing who someone is, you should probably use a better example than Molly Ringwald. Molly Ringwald was more famous for being a member of the Brat Pack and a teen queen who looked like the girl next door than any of her movie roles. Loss' argument appears to be that wrestlers can never be as famous as actors/actresses because movies are more popular than wrestler, ergo Andre the Giant is more famous for being in The Princess Bride than for being a wrestler, despite the fact that The Princess Bride much like Ringwald's movies is a cult classic that became more well known over time through VHS rentals and repeated screenings on TV. Loss may be right that we're overstating how mainstream Hogan was in the 80s, but likewise Ringwald was really only famous between '84 and '86.

 

As for the point about comic book characters and television and film, I didn't get it. Hogan wouldn't have been famous without television and movies and neither would Ringwald, so what's the point?

[Loss]

My point is that comic books crossed over into a new medium in a more successful, mainstream way than pro wrestling did.

 

I used Molly Ringwald precisely because she's not a pop culture icon -- to demonstrate how ludicrous it is to refer to Hogan as such.

[ohtani's jacket]

My point is that comic books crossed over into a new medium in a more successful, mainstream way than pro wrestling did.

 

I used Molly Ringwald precisely because she's not a pop culture icon -- to demonstrate how ludicrous it is to refer to Hogan as such.

All right, I take your points. I don't think you're giving the WWF credit for how popular it was in the 80s and Hogan for how well known a celebrity he was, but if your argument is that he wasn't Elvis or Marilyn Monroe then I think we can all agree with that.

[NintendoLogic]

I really don't see the argument for peak Ringwald being more famous than peak Hogan. Yes, movies are a bigger deal in our culture than professional wrestling. But Ringwald was a pretty marginal figure in that medium. Hell, I grew up in the 80s, and I had never heard of her until I was a teenager. Honestly, the soundtracks to her films were a bigger deal than the films themselves.

[El-P]

The real question is Undertaker > Greenwald ?

[Loss]

It's RINGWALD, not GREENWALD.

[ohtani's jacket]

I really don't see the argument for peak Ringwald being more famous than peak Hogan. Yes, movies are a bigger deal in our culture than professional wrestling. But Ringwald was a pretty marginal figure in that medium. Hell, I grew up in the 80s, and I had never heard of her until I was a teenager. Honestly, the soundtracks to her films were a bigger deal than the films themselves.

In early '86, she was on the cover of Time, Life magazine and Seventeen. She wasn't that marginal a figure, her fame was simply fleeting in large part because she turned down some pretty big roles like Pretty Woman and Ghost.

[Loss]

And I will agree that Julia Roberts and Demi Moore were bigger stars and are closer to pop culture icons. I'm not sure either is one, although Julia Roberts was box office gold for a pretty big stretch.

[El-P]

It's RINGWALD, not GREENWALD.

I just realized I typed Greenwald because of Molly. Molly Holly = Nora Greenwald. Fascinating how the brain works.

 

And I will agree that Julia Roberts and Demi Moore were bigger stars and are closer to pop culture icons. I'm not sure either is one, although Julia Roberts was box office gold for a pretty big stretch.

Julia Roberts is a huge freaking star. And Demi Moore used to be quite a big name too. Not even in the same boat.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm legit shocked at this.

 

I just did a google search for "Hulk Hogan" "cultural icon" just to see what would come up:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_U...0%E2%80%9389%29

 

1985 - Professional wrestling hits the mainstream with the World Wrestling Federation's first WrestleMania and the debut of Saturday Night's Main Event, and the WWF's flagship star, Hulk Hogan, becoming a cultural icon.

What the hell?!

 

There are 52 items listed for US History in the decade of the 80s in that article and that's one of them? It is something of a travesty that this is most people's one-stop shop for "knowledge". But there we have it. According to Wikipedia, Hogan headlining Wrestlemania I was one of the 52 most noteworthy events to happen in America in the 1980s.

[Matt D]

It's RINGWALD, not GREENWALD.

I just realized I typed Greenwald because of Molly. Molly Holly = Nora Greenwald. Fascinating how the brain works.

 

And I will agree that Julia Roberts and Demi Moore were bigger stars and are closer to pop culture icons. I'm not sure either is one, although Julia Roberts was box office gold for a pretty big stretch.

Julia Roberts is a huge freaking star. And Demi Moore used to be quite a big name too. Not even in the same boat.

 

It was funnier before you explained yourself. I thought you were running a Chris Jericho gimmick.

[C.S.]

I agree that Hogan probably has a more recognizable face than Molly Ringwald simply because he's so distinctive and she's been out of the public eye for so long.

Which is funny of you to say because she's actually been on a TV series for four seasons now - The Secret Life of the American Teenager. I don't think she's the star-star, but from what I understand, she has a fairly important role. (As the mother, I believe?)

 

But TV has changed. Wrestling has changed. The world has changed. There were a lot less options in the '80s when Hogan ruled the roost.

 

I think it's safe to say that more people know Hogan than Ringwald, just because of how distinctive he is, like you said, but also because he's had a much longer shelf life. Ringwald was big for a short period of time in the '80s and is experiencing a comeback now (if you can call it that), with very little in-between that garnered any major public recognition. Hogan, meanwhile, was on or near the top for 2-3 decades straight. More people had more chances to know him, even if Ringwald's '80s output is as "immortal" as Hogan's character. Still, the general public probably doesn't respect him the same way they might respect Ringwald. (I'm not saying Ringwald is Meryl Streep necessarily, but I'm willing to wager that people generally feel more affection and admiration for Ringwald than Hogan.)

 

This is a bit of a tough one. I think both at the time and in hindsight were overrate how big those Molly movies were:

The problem with your data is that it relies solely on 1980s box office numbers. Even in the '80s, movies had a shelf life outside of theaters. Cable and VHS rentals made so many of them big past their theatrical run, including the John Hughes movies. The Princess Bride is another good example of that. That has since continued with DVD, Blu-Ray, Netflix, etc.

 

Are you seriously going to tell me with a straight face that Witness, Out of Africa, and Cocoon are more enduring and beloved than the John Hughes films with Ringwald, or even the ones without her like Ferris? Crocodile Dundee was a major hit at the time, but it hasn't had the same staying power. It was a huge fad, almost like Hulk Hogan. But I don't think anyone outside of the '80s really knows or cares about Paul Hogan (the Croc actor).

[Strummer]

I've always found Ringwald's career rather fascinating. She was essentially done as a major player in Hollywood by her early 20s but her movies have been able to stand the test of time and kids today still love them. To be honest I don't think she was wildly talented or anything but she was able to to portray a certain vulnerability on screen that the younger demographic could attach to. She seemed to lose that by the time she hit 20 because..well she was becoming an adult.

 

I have to say it was surreal to see her do softcore B movies in the early/mid 90s. I don't know the name of it but the one where she stalks the college baseball player and they have sex in a car on the middle of the baseball diamond pops right into my head. Must say I was rather surprised how good she looked naked. <_>

[Dooley]

Awareness is a step farther than most wrestlers in history, and people are more aware of Hogan than they are other wrestlers. But could they name his three biggest matches?

Nope. But your average person on the street couldn't name three Molly Ringwald films either.

 

Did she have three starring vehicles? Breakfast Club, Pretty In Pink........and I'm stymied.

[El Boricua]

Sixteen Candles.

[SteveJRogers]

One thing that may help -- who are some non-wrestling celebrities that you would compare to Hogan in terms of general fame? I'm thinking not even just individual celebrities, but pop culture concepts that were hugely popular, be it for a short period of time or something that endured. I agree that Hogan probably has a more recognizable face than Molly Ringwald simply because he's so distinctive and she's been out of the public eye for so long. But I do think if we were ranking pop culture phenomenons of the 1980s, the Brat Pack would rank well above Hulk Hogan. I hope that clarifies my point.

Just thought of a GREAT ONE in terms of non-scripted sports in the same era (ish)

 

Bo Jackson.

 

Couldn't go ANYWHERE without seeing something with his image on magazine covers, Nike commercials (Bo Knows...), video games (he was virtually unstoppable in Techno Bowl form), action figures, trading cards, etc.

 

ESPN just did a 30 for 30 documentary on his meteoric rise into the zeitgeist, and sudden fall due to that damn hip injury. Could he have been the one true two-sport Hall of Famer if not for the injury (there is one in the Pro Football and National Baseball Halls of Fame, but he's in the Baseball one as an umpire)? Sadly we'll never know, but he was one of the most amazing talents and pop culture sensations to come along in his time.

 

So, does Bo > Hogan based on being such a pop culture icon for a short period of time?

 

Maybe the last MLB guy to truly be on that level...well there is Bonds, ARod, McGwire and Sosa, but for much, MUCH different reasons. Come to think of it, maybe the saga of Bonds and McGwire tells a lot about the placement of pro-wrestling and wrestlers in the mainstream, when comments about sluggers looking like they are WWF wrestlers and suggesting that based on PED cheating, baseball might just as well be on the same level as pro-wrestling in terms of being "fake" (as if they think all wrestling fans really are marks or some shit).

 

But anyway, back to Bo, I think he'd be a good enough comparison, in an athletic sense, from the same time frame as Hogan's peak of popularity.

[ohtani's jacket]

If this thread keeps up, I might end up having one of those weird PWO induced dreams...

 

 

Well, let me tell you something brutha. Everywhere I go people keep saying the name Molly Ringwald.

[cheapshot]

There was a very popular online series that was called 'Epic Rap Battles In History'.

 

It features spoofs of the following: Darth Vader, Adolf Hitler, Sarah Palin, Lady Gaga, Napoleon, Napoleon Dynamite, Mr T, Justin Bieber, Beethoven, John Lennon, Bill Riley, Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Kim Jong-Il, Genghis Khan, The Easter Bunny, Gandalf, Dumbledore, Dr Suess, Shakespeare, Captain Kirk, Christopher Columbus, Ben Franklin, Einstein, Stephen Hawkin, Abe Lincon, Chuck Norris, Mario Bros, Wright Bros. Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley, Cleopatra, Marilyn Monroe, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Barack Obama, Mitt Romney, Doc Brown, Doctor Who, Bruce Lee, Clint Eastwood, Batman, Sherlock Holmes, Moses, Santa Claus, Moses, Adam, Eve, Martin Luther King Jr, Gandhi, Mozart, Skillrex, Stalin, Rasputin, Al Capone, Miley Cyrus, Joan Of Arc.

 

I just thought it was a humorous that Hogan and Savage must be considered recognisable, and famous enough to be spoofed and lumped in with this lot of Film Icons, Historical Figures and other famous people.

[Childs]

Bo Jackson was a bigger deal than Hulk Hogan for a few years, but he didn't do anything to keep himself in the limelight after he retired. So my guess is that for anyone under 25 (and probably for a lot of people outside the U.S.), he's not that big a deal.

 

However, the idea that he was the last iconic baseball player is kind of silly. You telling me Derek Jeter isn't iconic? I'm also always surprised that people think Bo might've been a HOF in baseball. He never had even one season that would rank as a strong year in a HOF career. And he wasn't young by baseball standards when he got hurt. It takes a hell of a lot of projection, based on his physical gifts, to get him there.

 

All of that said, Bo is the most amazing athlete I've ever seen, and I hope his legend persists. He's the rare modern man who still feels worthy of folklore.

[SteveJRogers]

However, the idea that he was the last iconic baseball player is kind of silly. You telling me Derek Jeter isn't iconic?

Right, ditto Rivera from the same squad. Throw Ripken and Griffey, Jr. in that mix as well.

 

Brain fart/Yankee hatred on my part, especially in light of thinking about the PED scandals and pro wrestling comparisons that the mainstream media seems to be fond of making.

 

Also was trying to correlate the end of baseball's reign as the top dog in the team sport landscape in that statement, sure it had been in decline for some time before hand, but the 1990s is really when the mainstream media (especially Sports Illustrated, as well as ESPN once they secured the NFL contract, I'm not sure when the NBA contract kicked in, but hyping the NBA players as "rock stars" happened at this point as well) started to treat baseball, and its players as an afterthought, and MLB has never been the best at marketing the individual players on their own the way the NBA and NFL have been in the same time frame.

 

So in essence the point was that Jackson represented the last time a baseball player was in the zeitgeist in that way, being right time and right place.

 

Bo Jackson was a bigger deal than Hulk Hogan for a few years, but he didn't do anything to keep himself in the limelight after he retired. So my guess is that for anyone under 25 (and probably for a lot of people outside the U.S.), he's not that big a deal.

That is true, but the conversation is comparing the attitude of the masses whom associate Hogan with the way he was in 1986-1988 as opposed to the evolving personae in and out of the ring over the course of the last nearly 30 years.

 

I'm also always surprised that people think Bo might've been a HOF in baseball. He never had even one season that would rank as a strong year in a HOF career. And he wasn't young by baseball standards when he got hurt. It takes a hell of a lot of projection, based on his physical gifts, to get him there.

Fair point, just throwing some classic media hyperbole out there. But bear in mind, there are segments of the media, though thankfully none that have HOF votes, that probably consider the FAME part as more important than cold hard stats (I've heard someone suggest putting Jose Canseco in because of all the news worthy crap that followed him during his career, and since, including his books). So, even if Jackson ended up with a pedestrian career, his being one of the most famous players of his time would put him over the top in some people's eyes.

 

All of that said, Bo is the most amazing athlete I've ever seen, and I hope his legend persists. He's the rare modern man who still feels worthy of folklore.

That is true. Ditto the likes of Mark "The Bird" Fydrich and *sigh* Dwight Gooden (Met fan, grew up in that heyday).

[S.L.L.]

This has a 50/50 shot of either clarifying the "Hogan: Not That Big a Deal" argument or making it even more confusing, but I'm going for it anyway.

 

If there was a Hall of Fame for fame itself, and Hogan was being considered as a potential inductee, I think you could make a comparison of his candidacy for that to The Fabulous Moolah's candidacy for the WON HOF - a known entity who was synonymous with his field for a very long time, but his field meant very little in the grand scheme of things, and he doesn't really have many pluses beyond kneejerk recognition. And even that might be a generous comparison - my gut feeling is that Moolah meant more to wrestling than Hogan meant to mainstream celebrity in general, though I admit I can't really back that up with anything concrete.

[JerryvonKramer]

This has a 50/50 shot of either clarifying the "Hogan: Not That Big a Deal" argument or making it even more confusing, but I'm going for it anyway.

 

If there was a Hall of Fame for fame itself, and Hogan was being considered as a potential inductee, I think you could make a comparison of his candidacy for that to The Fabulous Moolah's candidacy for the WON HOF - a known entity who was synonymous with his field for a very long time, but his field meant very little in the grand scheme of things, and he doesn't really have many pluses beyond kneejerk recognition. And even that might be a generous comparison - my gut feeling is that Moolah meant more to wrestling than Hogan meant to mainstream celebrity in general, though I admit I can't really back that up with anything concrete.

Is fame just a flat measure of recognition factor or something else?

[cm funk]

Bo Jackson was a HUGE star back in the day. Nike marketing had a lot to do with that, but he was 1A after Jordan. He might be a historical footnote now, but they took the idea of a "2 sport athlete" and ran with it. Nike could make stars out of almost anyone in the 80's. Bo wasn't a great baseball player or anything, but he had those moments where he'd make a highlight reel catch or jack a homerun, and nobody thought about his OPS+ or anything like that.

 

As big of a star as he was though, for those few years, people don't remember him like they do a Hulk Hogan. He's more of a "oh yeah, I remember him. What if?" type that younger people or people who weren't paying attention at the time would have no clue about

[Matt D]

This has a 50/50 shot of either clarifying the "Hogan: Not That Big a Deal" argument or making it even more confusing, but I'm going for it anyway.

 

If there was a Hall of Fame for fame itself, and Hogan was being considered as a potential inductee, I think you could make a comparison of his candidacy for that to The Fabulous Moolah's candidacy for the WON HOF - a known entity who was synonymous with his field for a very long time, but his field meant very little in the grand scheme of things, and he doesn't really have many pluses beyond kneejerk recognition. And even that might be a generous comparison - my gut feeling is that Moolah meant more to wrestling than Hogan meant to mainstream celebrity in general, though I admit I can't really back that up with anything concrete.

Is fame just a flat measure of recognition factor or something else?

 

I know! We need star ratings. At his height, Hogan was 4 1/8 stars.

[NintendoLogic]

Are you seriously going to tell me with a straight face that Witness, Out of Africa, and Cocoon are more enduring and beloved than the John Hughes films with Ringwald, or even the ones without her like Ferris? Crocodile Dundee was a major hit at the time, but it hasn't had the same staying power. It was a huge fad, almost like Hulk Hogan. But I don't think anyone outside of the '80s really knows or cares about Paul Hogan (the Croc actor).

I was actually going to bring up Paul Hogan as a comparison. The first Crocodile Dundee movie grossed more than all the Brat Pack films combined, and the second one grossed over $100 million as well (in 1980s dollars, it should be noted). Was Paul Hogan a bigger deal in the culture than Hulk Hogan?