dawho5 Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 So I got back into wrestling recently and discovered I have different tastes after 7-8 years of not watching any. One of the big things I noticed was something about a wrestler I really used to enjoy and now find myself unable to watch more than 2 or 3 matches without having to find somebody else to watch. That isn't to say I don't enjoy some of the work, just parts of it I find bothersome, especially when grouped into multiple matches strung together. Koji Kanemoto is somebody I really wish I could call a great wrestler. He has good kicks (I really like his spinning side kick to the ribs, looks brutal), a great dickish sort of charisma, an incredible moonsault and his bridges on German and tiger suplexes are absolutely incredible. However, several things he does tend to annoy me pretty quickly these days. First and foremost, despite how nice it does look, is his belly-to-belly. Almost invariably, when it comes time for a late match turnaround to get to the finishing run, Koji's opponent will start rope-running like a madman. Which leads, not *always* right away, but it always does lead to the suplex. Which is usually not too far from big-nearfall moonsault time, after of course the front slam and the single fist. On that same note, a lot of his '90s matches I have seen (haven't seen much of his work after 2000 but it seems similar) follow a very similar flow. I suppose you could say that about a lot of the NJ juniors stuff at the time. Either way, it seems to me that good wrestlers are the guys who are physically capable of outstanding performances in the ring, but never really got the mental part of wrestling fully. They can put their spots in the right order and do all the things they need to, yes, but they don't adapt mid-match to their opponent. After watching more than a little Stan Hansen, he seems really good at building a match based on what has happened so far and where it is going, not trying to fit it into some pre-conceived structure he had in his head. This to me is what makes great wrestlers great. On a slightly sad note, I have been looking at Ultimo Dragon in a very similar way to how I (before I could truly articulate it) looked at Koji Kanemoto in terms of enjoying his matches. Will have to delve a little deeper into that when I reach a good stopping point on my AJPW. My question to all of you is: Who fits this kind of experience for you? Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Brad Armstrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Either way, it seems to me that good wrestlers are the guys who are physically capable of outstanding performances in the ring, but never really got the mental part of wrestling fully. They can put their spots in the right order and do all the things they need to, yes, but they don't adapt mid-match to their opponent. To me this may be the most accurate description of Kurt Angle I've yet seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 When I think of a "good but not great" wrestler the first name I think of is Bob Holly. Fundamentally sound, but relatively nondescript guy. Did lots of things well but nothing so well that he stood out (aside from maybe his dropkick). Always worked hard, and often times smart, but never a guy who quite put it all together at once. No really awful periods to speak of, but no really strong ones either. Lots of good matches, no great ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpchicago23 Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Holy shit I was gonna say Bob Holly too after reading the title. I guess another guy that could fit would be Malenko. Pains me to say it since he is one of my favorites but honestly he was never more than mechanically great aside from the one huge pop once he unmasked as Ciclope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Kanemoto has plenty of great performances. The only question is how high you set the bar on consistency. I've seen many wrestlers described as 'great' based on a relatively small number of great matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Pointing out the flaws in a guy like Kanemoto, to me, is old hat. I'd much rather hear about the flaws in a guy like Stan Hansen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Pointing out the flaws in a guy like Kanemoto, to me, is old hat. I'd much rather hear about the flaws in a guy like Stan Hansen. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the flaws of Satanico Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Pointing out the flaws in a guy like Kanemoto, to me, is old hat. I'd much rather hear about the flaws in a guy like Stan Hansen. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the flaws of Satanico There are older fans who think he was never that good a technical wrestler and was favoured in terms of his push, but I'll speak on what I've seen. Satanico was a great mat worker and brawler, but he had obvious limitations in that he was never a huge bumper and wasn't a flier. If you were to do a straight up comparison between Satanico and Pirata Morgan, for example, Morgan would come out on top in most categories because he was a tremendous bumper, had flashier highspots and a better tope. Another flaw in Satanico's work is that he wasn't very forgiving of the Octagons of the world and wasn't always obliging in terms of carrying them. There's a match against Hector Garza from '95 that is atrocious by Satanico standards where he doesn't seem to give a fuck and won't put Garza over. His AAA run was really poor at a time where physically it needn't have been poor and he showed no willingness to adapt to their style or even produce work of the same standard as in CMLL. For that reason, his output drops off a cliff after the Infernales leave CMLL in '93 and he never really recovers his former position even if some of his post-prime stuff is fun. I also think you could argue that he didn't give his opponents enough of the match at times compared to other rudos who worked harder to put the technicos over, like Emilio and Morgan. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Other than the Cochisse match, what are the matches that feature great matwork from Satanico? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I'd have to go through my blog to find the specific trios matches where I thought Satanico had great mat exchanges, but just recently I saw him have an exchange with Ultimo Dragon that gave me a flash of what a Satanico/Ultimo Dragon match might have been like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Pointing out the flaws in a guy like Kanemoto, to me, is old hat. I'd much rather hear about the flaws in a guy like Stan Hansen. I really don't think it's a long list, and I've seen almost no Hansen from the back half of the '90s, but... - He and Jumbo were never really able to put it together against each other. You're talking about guys with very strong #1-2 GOAT arguments and yet they never had a singles match to approach classic status despite years of opportunities. - 99% of his matches outside of All-Japan have an attached bullshit finish that's practically a prerequisite. I get his reasonings to some degree but it doesn't make it any less frustrating to watch. One of the few settings where he would appear to put somebody over was in bullrope matches involving touching the four corners, leading to what eventually became an absurd, Kane-like inability to win his own "specialty" match. This tends to be the most frustrating part of his game to me. - Ridiculously and uncomfortably careless with his opponent at times, even in the stiff Japan setting. If your eyesight's that bad then it tone it the hell down some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Jumbo and Hansen had some really good singles matches with each other in 1986. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 One, that I can recall. And "really good" is about where it topped out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I thought the best Hansen vs. Tsuruta singles match was when Hansen and Tsuruta were brawling for 99.9% of it. Tsuruta came out all fired up and started using Hansen tactics against Hansen. Oddly enough, the only wrestling move in the match besides pin attempts was Hansen trying a piledriver that got reversed. Tsuruta even started grabbing chairs and chucking them at Hansen, which I thought was pretty cool. Then I watched the matches Hansen had with Misawa, Kobashi and Kawada, which blew that one to pieces. Thing is, after watching 1983 All Japan, I can't in any way discount the effect Hansen vs. Tsuruta had. 1983 AJ would have fit in as an American territory with some very small modifications to the style. Then along comes Hansen and 6, 7 years later Tsuruta is working at least 5x stiffer and more intense. I don't know (read something about this guy on here) if Hansen was the only thing that brought Yoshiaki Yatsu around or what happened, but the tags with Hansen/Tenryu facing Jumbo/Yatsu actually got quite a bit more intense. First few tags I saw Yatsu against Stan, he was trying to suplex and use submissions all the way through. Then in the later part of '89, Yatsu starts going after Hansen like a madman with his overhand chops and headbutts (even while he's wearing a head brace). Combine that with the HATE between Jumbo and Tenryu at the time and those are my favorite matches involving Hansen and Tsuruta. I do think that Hansen had a ton to do with 90s AJ wrestling style. His influence is really easy to see in the stiffness of Kawada, Misawa and Kobashi. Jumbo didn't have that stiffness until after he had a lot of time in against Stan. I'm not saying that Jumbo, Tenryu and Baba didn't have any influence over the 4 Pillars, but Hansen made a really big mark on the future wrestling style there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 My biggest problem with Hansen is that he enjoyed having Bruiser Brody as a partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 My biggest problem with Hansen is that he enjoyed having Bruiser Brody as a partner. That made him look even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Terry Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 My biggest problem with Hansen is that he enjoyed having Bruiser Brody as a partner. YES!! Yes a thousand times over. There's a great opportunity here for some some Saving Silverman jokes that too many people would find distasteful, so we'll simply leave it as saying this relationship is much like when a good buddy marries someone you absolutely hate, and all of your friends agree as well. Happened in my circle recently. Hell, even my guy's dad says his daughter in law is cold. Needless to say we a lot less of him than we used to. Fortunately, Hansen never put a ring on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I love that this thread has become an exercise in Maoist self-criticism. Let's get some thoughts on the flaws of Lawler and Fujiwara. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Terry Taylor I think for me, this is the archetypal answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Brad Armstrong Masahiro Chono Hiroyoshi Tenzan Terry Taylor Raven Bam Bam Bigelow Ray Traylor Tim Horner Bob Holly Rowdy Roddy Piper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Lawler wrestles like any other nickel-and-dime Southern heel and panders for cheap heat too much instead of presenting himself as a tough guy. On his promos, he buries his opponents instead of selling the match as something people should care about, take seriously and want to see. The routine of hiding a foreign object in the tights is fine as an act, but is beneath someone pushed as the top guy of the promotion. He should stay off the house mic during his matches too. I love Lawler as a babyface, although even there, there are problems because it's rare that you see some great wrestling moves or that he takes the match to the mat. Punch, punch, punch, punch, punch ... as good as they are and as many variations as he has, it can get monotonous. There are exceptions to that, and someone could respond and name matches, but they are pointing out an exception, not something Lawler did routinely. He's a great brawler. He has taken some huge bumps, but he's not a guy who takes big bumps in regular matches. I don't mean something crazy or exceptional like the Jos Le Duc bump ... I mean regular bumping in the confines of a traditional wrestling match where he feeds a babyface offense. He's a guy who I've liked less the more I've seen of him, although in terms of presenting himself as a top guy outside the ring, he's nearly peerless. But a GOAT contender shouldn't be such a schtick guy, and should be someone who works smart *and* hard. Lawler tends to do the former and not the latter. Not nearly enough steak with the sizzle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 My criticism of Hansen would be about the way he could really throw off his opponents in bad ways. I read a shoot interview where he said that he liked to just go at his opponents and see how they reacted, then go from there. While as a wrestling fan I find this approach very entertaining, there are only a certain amount of wrestlers who are going to be able to deal with that well. The vast majority of pro wrestlers need more predetermined structure and just to have things laid out beforehand. I can imagine a lot of guys got a little intimidated by the way Hansen did things and the matches would suffer for it. Also, the point of safety has been brought up earlier in the thread. The way he really drove his elbow drops and some of his knee drops in and how close they were to the throat is pretty scary considering the guy was half-blind. Also, that powerbomb on Kawada in the big 93 match, he completely lost him about 2/3 the way up it looked like. If he loses control while Kawada is at a worse angle, that could have gone really badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Lawler wrestles like any other nickel-and-dime Southern heel and panders for cheap heat too much instead of presenting himself as a tough guy. On his promos, he buries his opponents instead of selling the match as something people should care about, take seriously and want to see. The routine of hiding a foreign object in the tights is fine as an act, but is beneath someone pushed as the top guy of the promotion. He should stay off the house mic during his matches too. I love Lawler as a babyface, although even there, there are problems because it's rare that you see some great wrestling moves or that he takes the match to the mat. Punch, punch, punch, punch, punch ... as good as they are and as many variations as he has, it can get monotonous. There are exceptions to that, and someone could respond and name matches, but they are pointing out an exception, not something Lawler did routinely. He's a great brawler. He has taken some huge bumps, but he's not a guy who takes big bumps in regular matches. I don't mean something crazy or exceptional like the Jos Le Duc bump ... I mean regular bumping in the confines of a traditional wrestling match where he feeds a babyface offense. He's a guy who I've liked less the more I've seen of him, although in terms of presenting himself as a top guy outside the ring, he's nearly peerless. But a GOAT contender shouldn't be such a schtick guy, and should be someone who works smart *and* hard. Lawler tends to do the former and not the latter. Not nearly enough steak with the sizzle. HOLY MOTHERFUCKING SHIT !!!!! YOU'LL GET BANNED FROM YOUR OWN BOARD !!!!!! Okay, maybe not. But you pointed a whole lot of stuff that bother me about Lawler. You forgot the no-sell comebacks. Though honestly I have Lawler at "very good/excellent", so he doesn't belong in this thread for me. Fuji at his peak was great (like Takada, you know), so no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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