WWE Network... It's Here

[cad]

 

Oh yeah, the legendary promo that rocketed Stone Cold to a pay per view rematch with Marc Mero stardom, that's what cemented him as an all timer.

 

When Russo started booking no one would have said that having Steve Austin and Rocky Maivia under your control in the WWF was an impossible situation to screw up. They became stars while he was booking. He booked segments and entire shows with the intention of making those guys look like stars. I am sure they could have become stars without him, but I am also sure that bad enough booking could have sunk them. Even with the oft mentioned filters he had there, it is not like Vince McMahon and company have a flawless record of separating good idea from bad ones. Like you said, the man has over fifteen years of failures to pick apart. Why rip him for the one brief period when he actually seemed to understand the wrestling landscape better than those around him?

 

Are we going to pretend the 3:16 promo isn't vital to Austin eventually becoming the biggest thing around ? Just because the WWF didn't picked on it immediately ?

 

To answer the bolded part : because he didn't. He didn't book alone during that period. Hell, like Charles said, Corny was around until as late as 1998, when the turnaround was already done and Austin was the hottest thing. Pritchard was also there. And of course, Vince himself. The filters aren't overstated. I'm not saying he didn't contribute, but Russo without filter got exposed immediately, and le's not go into "oh, but he couldn't do what he wanted in WCW" since it was the exact same shit in TNA. When you're a failure 95% of your whole career, when you can spot the patterns of his whole "creative spectrum" after going through his stints in details (and yeah, I've done that both for WCW and early TNA, the masochist that I am), it's easy to expose his way of thinking and writing. It's not like he's that creative to begin with (the word "creative" is so overrated anyway, especially in pro-wrestling).

 

There's probably something to be said about some of his ideas going through the Vince filter, working with Austin & Rock & Foley, simply being repeated everywhere else because the guy had no notion of why it worked before (context, worker). Which is another proof, if needed, he's a clueless idiot.

 

It was a great promo. It wasn't a ticket to automatic stardom. WWE history is littered with great promos that the company didn't capitalize on, or tried to and failed. No reason that Austin's couldn't have ended up on that list. Not that Russo was the only one who saw money in Austin (and I doubt he had anything to do with the decision to push Stone Cold Steve to begin with), but he wasn't given a guaranteed legend in the making, either.

 

I wouldn't want Russo booking a promotion alone, ever, but he was the guy who seemed to convince Vince McMahon that Raw was boring and needed a new direction. None of the others who had the boss's ear, all of whom had been around for a while before Russo, could do this. McMahon certainly didn't realize it on his own. These are the filters, the guys who were responsible for 1996 Raw, not some infallible wrestling minds. Obviously Russo was never again able to diagnose a problem and change a promotion for the better, so maybe it was just luck that his idea for a wrestling show lined up with what the WWF's fans wanted. That and the fact that the WWF didn't miss a beat when he left the company don't help his case.

 

I guess that just totally writing off Russo's SUCCESSFUL period as right place, right time feels like watching a good Ultimate Warrior match and giving 100% credit to the heel. Yeah, maybe he was totally carried, but it doesn't seem like there's much critical thought to that. It's easy and tidy to just say, "okay, it was a good match, but here's why Warrior is still useless." I don't have a high opinion of Russo's writing or booking abilities either but there was a time when his stuff was working, and I'd rather give him credit for that than find reasons that it doesn't count.

[Loss]

It's hard when wrestling doesn't really hold itself to any type of convention. Not that it should even. But it's hard to come up with universals like that. I mean, Wrestler wins match to earn title shot is how the vast majority of PPV main events have been set up in WWE for the last 10-15 years, but that's not a particularly engaging form of conflict, even if it is logical and generally effective. Most feuds have seemed to be about everyone fighting for their right to be properly canonized in WWE history. Being the longest reigning champion, being the first woman to headline something, having the first of a specific type of match, fighting to prove that one's success is deserved or one's lack of success is undeserved, etc.

[The Thread Killer]

The one missing from the list is "Heel insults babyface's honor/family/injures family member/friend. Babyface gets revenge." Whether it's Macho and Flair with Liz or the Nightmares injuring Johnny Rich so Tommy comes in to get revenge or what or Sullivan and Dusty's "Sister."

 

Excellent point, we need to add that to the list. Best example of that I ever saw was in Stampede Wrestling. Bad News Allen permanently crippled the son of Archie "The Stomper" Gouldie and put him out of wrestling forever. It was so convincing, the idiot play-by-play man Ed Whalen got up and walked out of the arena, and helped convince the athletic commission to ban the subsequent Allen/Gouldie blow-off match at the Calgary Pavilion and it almost got them thrown off TV for good.

 

Which is unfortunate because:

 

1) The kid never really got injured

2) The kid wasn't even really Archie Gouldie's kid...he was just some kid brought in by Bruce Hart for the angle and

3) It got a massive amount of heat and attention and would have drawn huge money for Stampede...if that moron Ed Whalen hadn't help ruin it.

 

They ended up having to do the blow-off on an Indian Reservation and run buses to the show, which a lot of fans wouldn't take.

[iamthedoctor]

 

Vince vs Roman in one night got PHILLY to chant you deserve it for Roman. The Authority figure vs wrestler hasn't worked the same since Vince/Austin because....Vince is one of a kind. So was Austin, but it was more Vince. The follow up authority figures were Steph/HHH, Eric Bischoff, Stephanie McMahon, Paul Heyman, and eventually HHH/Steph again.

 

Vince vs Hogan and Vince vs HBK also worked, very, very well, arguably stealing the shows and build at both of their respective WMs.

 

Mr. McMahon is probably the best heel character in wrestling history. Vince was willing to do whatever it took to get the babyface over, which is most of the reason why it doesn't work when anyone else tries to copy it. They get the asshole boss part down pat, but forget the part where you stooge all over the place to make the babyface strong. No one else does that part, due to the usual fragile wrestler ego syndrome, where Vince didn't have to worry about that since he owned the company and didn't care if he looked like a goofball.

 

 

While Vince did a great job at playing a heel I don't think he was as good as Piper was at inciting a crowd.

 

Im sure some historian on here could give a valid point as to why Piper was so great at playing a heel.

[flyonthewall2983]

The next episode of Table for 3 will debut Monday after Raw, and will feature Ric Flair, Bruno Sammartino and Bob Orton

I presume Ric and Bruno have buried the hatchet?

[Ricky Jackson]

 

 

The one missing from the list is "Heel insults babyface's honor/family/injures family member/friend. Babyface gets revenge." Whether it's Macho and Flair with Liz or the Nightmares injuring Johnny Rich so Tommy comes in to get revenge or what or Sullivan and Dusty's "Sister."

Excellent point, we need to add that to the list. Best example of that I ever saw was in Stampede Wrestling. Bad News Allen permanently crippled the son of Archie "The Stomper" Gouldie and put him out of wrestling forever. It was so convincing, the idiot play-by-play man Ed Whalen got up and walked out of the arena, and helped convince the athletic commission to ban the subsequent Allen/Gouldie blow-off match at the Calgary Pavilion and it almost got them thrown off TV for good.

 

Which is unfortunate because:

 

1) The kid never really got injured

2) The kid wasn't even really Archie Gouldie's kid...he was just some kid brought in by Bruce Hart for the angle and

3) It got a massive amount of heat and attention and would have drawn huge money for Stampede...if that moron Ed Whalen hadn't help ruin it.

 

They ended up having to do the blow-off on an Indian Reservation and run buses to the show, which a lot of fans wouldn't take.

Whalen was in on the angle. It was only later after all the bad press from the post-angle riot that he stepped away. As far as I know he had nothing to do with the promotion being kicked out of the Victoria Pavillion

[Loss]

Both are from the old school and are probably willing to just kayfabe it.

[The Thread Killer]

 

 

The one missing from the list is "Heel insults babyface's honor/family/injures family member/friend. Babyface gets revenge." Whether it's Macho and Flair with Liz or the Nightmares injuring Johnny Rich so Tommy comes in to get revenge or what or Sullivan and Dusty's "Sister."

Excellent point, we need to add that to the list. Best example of that I ever saw was in Stampede Wrestling. Bad News Allen permanently crippled the son of Archie "The Stomper" Gouldie and put him out of wrestling forever. It was so convincing, the idiot play-by-play man Ed Whalen got up and walked out of the arena, and helped convince the athletic commission to ban the subsequent Allen/Gouldie blow-off match at the Calgary Pavilion and it almost got them thrown off TV for good.

 

Which is unfortunate because:

 

1) The kid never really got injured

2) The kid wasn't even really Archie Gouldie's kid...he was just some kid brought in by Bruce Hart for the angle and

3) It got a massive amount of heat and attention and would have drawn huge money for Stampede...if that moron Ed Whalen hadn't help ruin it.

 

They ended up having to do the blow-off on an Indian Reservation and run buses to the show, which a lot of fans wouldn't take.

Whalen was in on the angle. It was only later after all the bad press from the post-angle riot that he stepped away. As far as I know he had nothing to do with the promotion being kicked out of the Victoria Pavillion

 

 

Whalen gave a bunch of interviews to the Calgary media after he quit, complaining about how violent wrestling had become, and that angle in particular. When the guy who is the supposed "voice" of your company goes public and buries it, people are going to listen. A lot of people in Calgary respected Whalen, since he also did play-by-play for the Flames.

 

I've heard that Whalen later told people he knew about it before hand, and that he quit Stampede because his wife was running for a town council position and didn't want the fact that he worked for Stampede to be used against her - so he quit and they worked it into the angle. The problem is, Bruce Hart reportedly told Heath McCoy that Whalen didn't know beforehand, and that he is lying now.

 

The thing is, Bruce Hart is also notoriously full of shit. When it comes to stuff about Stampede, I tend to believe Heath McCoy. In this case, I suppose a case can be made either way.

 

Anyhow, I guess my original point should have been that the angle was awesome, especially for it's time. And also, Ed Whalen was terrible. Not just for constantly burying his own company and no-selling angles during commentary, and stooging during interviews - he was also a horrible announcer. He publicly admitted he didn't even like wrestling or respect it. That's why I always go mental whenever his name comes up.

 

Of course, this time - I'm the one who brought it up.

[Ricky Jackson]

Not sure the exact date or place, but the Bruno vs Steele match from the Bruno collection added today is NOT from the 8/9/75 MSG card as listed. It's clearly from Bruno's first reign based on the belt he wears to the ring. I'm guessing around the same time as the cage vs Steele that was added when Steele passed away, so about 1970. Perhaps the June 27, 1970 card at the Philadelphia Arena a month before the cage

[Matt D]

Not sure the exact date or place, but the Bruno vs Steele match from the Bruno collection added today is NOT from the 8/9/75 MSG card as listed. It's clearly from Bruno's first reign based on the belt he wears to the ring. I'm guessing around the same time as the cage vs Steele that was added when Steele passed away, so about 1970. Perhaps the June 27, 1970 card at the Philadelphia Arena a month before the cage

Did anything interest get posted?

[Ricky Jackson]

If you haven't seen many of Bruno's greatest matches, this is a really good playlist. The most interesting match for those that have seen a lot of Bruno is a March 1977 MSG bout vs Patera with Monsoon as ref that hasn't been widely available before

[Ricky Jackson]

Not sure the exact date or place, but the Bruno vs Steele match from the Bruno collection added today is NOT from the 8/9/75 MSG card as listed. It's clearly from Bruno's first reign based on the belt he wears to the ring. I'm guessing around the same time as the cage vs Steele that was added when Steele passed away, so about 1970. Perhaps the June 27, 1970 card at the Philadelphia Arena a month before the cage

For those as ridiculously interested in this matter as I am, a poster at KM suggests the Bruno vs Steele match may be from 8/9/1969 at the Philadelphia Arena. That could explain the date confusion, plus the finish to the match and the finish to the 6/27/70 match I threw out as a possibility differ. Consensus seems to be that it was for sure from the Philadelphia Arena

[sek69]

It's nice to see them put some variety in to the Ladder Match collection, there were some different matches put in and not another rehash of the same old lists they used to always use for these things. Some of the old standbys were still there of course, but it was good to see some new stuff.

[Cornette's racket]

 

The next episode of Table for 3 will debut Monday after Raw, and will feature Ric Flair, Bruno Sammartino and Bob Orton

I presume Ric and Bruno have buried the hatchet?

I watched it earlier and I'd say they "did business" for the cameras. Also it's randy Orton not bob Orton.

[sek69]

I've been surprised how much Bruno has done with WWE since returning to the fold. I figured he'd do the HOF and a DVD or two and disappear.

[Johnny Sorrow]

The Table For Three with Bruno, Flair, and Randy Orton is fucking crazy. Flair is wasted, Bruno's telling his stories about the Nazis and his mother, Orton is trying and is generally successful at reigning in Flair and he's prepared and really interested in what Bruno has to say. But at times Flair's going on about crazy road stories and then it's Bruno looking disgusted at these stories of what the NWA was like in the Seventies.

And you also have Orton reminding Bruno nicely that Bruno has worked with his whole family now, and then Flair, drunk and wearing a giant crucifix is talking about how he doesn't party any more. You know he talked to Micheals and he got it all wrong, figuring getting his shit together is just lip service and a giant gold cross that Flava Flav wouldn't wear.

Yesterday was my birthday and this was the best gift.

[sek69]

The idea of Randy Orton being someone's handler is hilarious but I suppose he's got experience with that particular job.

[Al]

Bruno wrestled Bob Sr. at the Garden. That's really freaking cool.

[Johnny Sorrow]

The idea of Randy Orton being someone's handler is hilarious but I suppose he's got experience with that particular job.

Well, Randy had his period of bad behavior and grew up. Now he's a calm, happy, chill family man. Flair, as much as I love him, never achieved that.

[Ricky Jackson]

 

Not sure the exact date or place, but the Bruno vs Steele match from the Bruno collection added today is NOT from the 8/9/75 MSG card as listed. It's clearly from Bruno's first reign based on the belt he wears to the ring. I'm guessing around the same time as the cage vs Steele that was added when Steele passed away, so about 1970. Perhaps the June 27, 1970 card at the Philadelphia Arena a month before the cage

For those as ridiculously interested in this matter as I am, a poster at KM suggests the Bruno vs Steele match may be from 8/9/1969 at the Philadelphia Arena. That could explain the date confusion, plus the finish to the match and the finish to the 6/27/70 match I threw out as a possibility differ. Consensus seems to be that it was for sure from the Philadelphia Arena

To be even more anal, the Piper's Pit is not from 9/13/85 (that was the date of a Pittsburgh show that DID have a Piper's Pit with Bruno, but not this one, which is from MSG) but from 10/21/85. Funny they didn't go with the 11/9/85 Boston Garden Piper's Pit with Bruno since the follow up matches are from there

[NickH]

 

For those as ridiculously interested in this matter as I am, a poster at KM suggests the Bruno vs Steele match may be from 8/9/1969 at the Philadelphia Arena. That could explain the date confusion, plus the finish to the match and the finish to the 6/27/70 match I threw out as a possibility differ. Consensus seems to be that it was for sure from the Philadelphia Arena

 

 

Hey Ricky, I'm the poster at KM you're referring to. Glad to know somebody is interested in this. I found a little bit of info about the finish of the Steele match, it may or may not help but thought I'll share it.

 

8/9/69 Philadelphia, Pa. - Decision reversed when Steele's foot was on the ropes. This is from a Bruno record book made about 10 years ago.

 

I thought this was interesting because George does put his foot under the ropes when he was pinned so that's the date I'm going with for now.

 

As far as the actual match goes, this may be the most entertaining Steele match I've seen. The fans go nuts whenever Bruno is on offense or when Steele is on the outside chasing kids up the aisle, at one point a kid throws a chair at him, no wonder riots took place back then. What George lacks in wrestling ability he surely makes up for it in heel tactics. I hope people give this a look.

[Ricky Jackson]

Cool. Yeah, I think the 8/9/69 date is likely the correct one, which is neat because we have very little of 60s Bruno available outside of matches with Baba from Japan.

 

Going to dive into the collection soon. Fans of PWO podcasts be on the lookout for my thoughts, along with some friends of mine...

[clintthecrippler]

The camera shot of Bruno looking absolutely horrified as Flair is laughing about Harley Race rolling into a WWF show with a gun when Kansas City was still a territory was spectacular.

[Cornette's racket]

I watched the Ivan koloff vs Bruno cage match from the new collection. I have to say Ivan sells for Bruno like a champ. He's bouncing off the cage and flying into the ring post like a pinball. And not a lot of that whole crawling towards the door shit. I have to say I liked it a lot.

[clintthecrippler]

Yeah, the Bruno cage matches I have seen from that era I love that they really do instill "escape the cage" rules as more "beat the shit out of your opponent and walk away" than the race to be first concept that bogs down most modern escape matches.