WWE Network... It's Here

[cad]

It's a wee bit easier to draw money when you work in the WWF under Vince MacMahon working with the two biggest stars ever, arguably, in the hottest period for pro-wrestling ever than when you do things on your own on a regional level during the worst period ever for pro-wrestling and you have Brian Lee & Tracy Smothers as aces. Wait, SMW did draw money for a while. So there.

The part I bolded reads like a pro-Russo argument, considering Russo started out with 1996 WWF and not 1998 WWF.

 

But forget that. The reason Cornette should be on something like this over Russo is that Cornette is a good talker and storyteller and Russo is not.

[C.S.]

But forget that. The reason Cornette should be on something like this over Russo is that Cornette is a good talker and storyteller and Russo is not.

 

When Steve-fucking-Lombardi and various no-name d-list comedians (Ron Funches, etc.) have been talking heads, Russo doesn't exactly have a high mountain to climb.

 

And when did this turn into an either/or argument anyway? No one is saying Russo should replace Cornette.

[El-P]

 

It's a wee bit easier to draw money when you work in the WWF under Vince MacMahon working with the two biggest stars ever, arguably, in the hottest period for pro-wrestling ever than when you do things on your own on a regional level during the worst period ever for pro-wrestling and you have Brian Lee & Tracy Smothers as aces. Wait, SMW did draw money for a while. So there.

The part I bolded reads like a pro-Russo argument, considering Russo started out with 1996 WWF and not 1998 WWF.

 

Not at all. Russo has jackshit to do with Austin cutting his 3:16 promo. And Cornette was still on the writing team as late as mid-1997 FWIW. The only guy who believes Russo created Austin & The Rock is Russo himself. He's been a proven failure for 15 years straight in two major companies (on every level).

 

Who the fuck cares about what this dumbfuck has to say in 2017 anyway ?

 

No, the real heel-freezes-over stuff about this whole deal is to see Cornette on the Network alongside Eric Bischoff...

[Matt D]

I'm happier with the guy as a Pariah.

[Loss]

Cornette actually didn't step aside until 1998. He contributed to the turnaround. I think he and Russo balanced out each other's worst tendencies. And people forget that even in 1996, the WWF was hugely successful in house show business. They were only trailing WCW in ratings, which suddenly became all that anyone cared about.

[PeteF3]

Just for the record, Cornette probably deserves a lot of credit for Kane becoming as big as he did. The Halloween influence, the ripping off of the cage door, the very idea of Hell in a Cell itself...that all came from Cornette, though as Loss alluded to, all of those elements were lifted from elsewhere which Cornette doesn't deny (the cage door rip came from how Doug Furnas debuted in Continental, Hell in a Cell came from the Last Battle of Atlanta).

 

And more importantly than all of that, it was Cornette who kept Kane and Undertaker apart and developed the idea of Kane trying to get at Undertaker by destroying other people. Russo wanted Undertaker to come right back and drive Kane through a table or something like a week after Badd Blood.

 

It's easy to shit on Kane and how stale he got and how stupid some of his angles were later, but a gimmick that initially looked like Black Scorpion Redux became a more-than-useful member of the roster for almost 20 years, thanks a lot to Jacobs' execution but also thanks a lot to Cornette's vision.

[cad]

 

 

It's a wee bit easier to draw money when you work in the WWF under Vince MacMahon working with the two biggest stars ever, arguably, in the hottest period for pro-wrestling ever than when you do things on your own on a regional level during the worst period ever for pro-wrestling and you have Brian Lee & Tracy Smothers as aces. Wait, SMW did draw money for a while. So there.

The part I bolded reads like a pro-Russo argument, considering Russo started out with 1996 WWF and not 1998 WWF.

 

Not at all. Russo has jackshit to do with Austin cutting his 3:16 promo. And Cornette was still on the writing team as late as mid-1997 FWIW. The only guy who believes Russo created Austin & The Rock is Russo himself. He's been a proven failure for 15 years straight in two major companies (on every level).

Oh yeah, the legendary promo that rocketed Stone Cold to a pay per view rematch with Marc Mero stardom, that's what cemented him as an all timer.

 

When Russo started booking no one would have said that having Steve Austin and Rocky Maivia under your control in the WWF was an impossible situation to screw up. They became stars while he was booking. He booked segments and entire shows with the intention of making those guys look like stars. I am sure they could have become stars without him, but I am also sure that bad enough booking could have sunk them. Even with the oft mentioned filters he had there, it is not like Vince McMahon and company have a flawless record of separating good idea from bad ones. Like you said, the man has over fifteen years of failures to pick apart. Why rip him for the one brief period when he actually seemed to understand the wrestling landscape better than those around him?

 

I am also unconvinced by the argument that WWE already employs plenty of boring listens, so why not add another? If I am looking to replace the unreliable meth addict who works at my store, that does not mean that I should consider hiring a serious alcoholic on the grounds that he cannot be any less dependable than the man I already have.

[The Thread Killer]

I should add that I've come to see Cornette as a bit overrated as a wrestling mind, and I see him as someone more with good tastes in angles to copy than as someone who can conceive his own original ideas.

 

You raise a good point.

 

Of all people, I once heard Kevin Nash talk about a conversation that he had with Eric Bischoff regarding the art of booking. Nash claimed that Bischoff's theory (which Nash agreed with) is that there is really only about five different storylines which have ever been successful in the entire history of Pro Wrestling, and every successful angle since they were done first is just a variation on one of those themes. The trick is to do them right.

 

- Partner turns on partner or friend turns on friend (or student on mentor, etc.)

- Babyface pursues heel Champion who repeatedly cheats to keep his title

- Patriotic angles (USA vs. whatever country is the boogeyman at that time)

- Mystery antagonist screws with babyface until finally being revealed

- Outsider from other organization or territory "invades."

 

I guess we could now add "Authority figure abuses roster."

 

He wasn't wrong. I think all good wrestling minds usually end up doing variations on those themes, the trick is to steal the right idea and use it at the right time with the right people. Since Cornette knows so much about the history of the business, I think he's had fairly good instincts regarding when to use these well worn ideas.

[C.S.]

You raise a good point.

 

Of all people, I once heard Kevin Nash talk about a conversation that he had with Eric Bischoff regarding the art of booking. Nash claimed that Bischoff's theory (which Nash agreed with) is that there is really only about five different storylines which have ever been successful in the entire history of Pro Wrestling, and every successful angle since they were done first is just a variation on one of those themes. The trick is to do them right.

 

...

 

I guess we could now add "Authority figure abuses roster."

 

A great post! Although, I personally wouldn't add "authority figure abuses roster" because that has never truly been successful. Yes, of course Austin vs. McMahon was a smash hit, BUT that was one authority figure vs. one wrestler and could probably loosely fit in one of the other categories. While the Mr. McMahon character surely had other targets from time to time, it only worked because of the dynamic between him and Austin. It has not worked since, in any combination, and is now one of the stalest and laziest crutches around and has been run into the ground by every fed.

 

Edit: Evil "Easy E" Bischoff also worked, to a lesser extent, but the nWo would have been perfectly fine without it too.

[Flyin' Brian]

 

You raise a good point.

 

Of all people, I once heard Kevin Nash talk about a conversation that he had with Eric Bischoff regarding the art of booking. Nash claimed that Bischoff's theory (which Nash agreed with) is that there is really only about five different storylines which have ever been successful in the entire history of Pro Wrestling, and every successful angle since they were done first is just a variation on one of those themes. The trick is to do them right.

 

...

 

I guess we could now add "Authority figure abuses roster."

 

A great post! Although, I personally wouldn't add "authority figure abuses roster" because that has never truly been successful. Yes, of course Austin vs. McMahon was a smash hit, BUT that was one authority figure vs. one wrestler and could probably loosely fit in one of the other categories. While the Mr. McMahon character surely had other targets from time to time, it only worked because of the dynamic between him and Austin. It has not worked since, in any combination, and is now one of the stalest and laziest crutches around and has been run into the ground by every fed.

 

Edit: Evil "Easy E" Bischoff also worked, to a lesser extent, but the nWo would have been perfectly fine without it too.

 

 

The Authority vs Daniel Bryan I think only fits into that category too though.

[stro]

Vince vs Roman in one night got PHILLY to chant you deserve it for Roman. The Authority figure vs wrestler hasn't worked the same since Vince/Austin because....Vince is one of a kind. So was Austin, but it was more Vince. The follow up authority figures were Steph/HHH, Eric Bischoff, Stephanie McMahon, Paul Heyman, and eventually HHH/Steph again.

 

Vince vs Hogan and Vince vs HBK also worked, very, very well, arguably stealing the shows and build at both of their respective WMs.

[C.S.]

The Authority vs Daniel Bryan I think only fits into that category too though.

That's true too, but only because they were actually backed into a corner and had to push Bryan after Punk left. Otherwise, we'd remember it as Steph emasculating Bryan and Trips cutting him off at the knees at every turn.

 

 

Vince vs Roman in one night got PHILLY to chant you deserve it for Roman. The Authority figure vs wrestler hasn't worked the same since Vince/Austin because....Vince is one of a kind. So was Austin, but it was more Vince. The follow up authority figures were Steph/HHH, Eric Bischoff, Stephanie McMahon, Paul Heyman, and eventually HHH/Steph again.

 

Vince vs Hogan and Vince vs HBK also worked, very, very well, arguably stealing the shows and build at both of their respective WMs.

 

True, but I'm not sure that means "Authority Figure" deserves a separate category as one of the 5-6 successful basic wrestling storyline archetypes.

 

In all of those cases, it's still a 1 on 1 feud. Story-wise, what's the difference between Boss Man vs. Hogan and Vince vs. Hogan? One guy's playing a cop vs. Hogan and the other guy's playing an evil executive vs. Hogan.

[El-P]

Oh yeah, the legendary promo that rocketed Stone Cold to a pay per view rematch with Marc Mero stardom, that's what cemented him as an all timer.

 

When Russo started booking no one would have said that having Steve Austin and Rocky Maivia under your control in the WWF was an impossible situation to screw up. They became stars while he was booking. He booked segments and entire shows with the intention of making those guys look like stars. I am sure they could have become stars without him, but I am also sure that bad enough booking could have sunk them. Even with the oft mentioned filters he had there, it is not like Vince McMahon and company have a flawless record of separating good idea from bad ones. Like you said, the man has over fifteen years of failures to pick apart. Why rip him for the one brief period when he actually seemed to understand the wrestling landscape better than those around him?

 

Are we going to pretend the 3:16 promo isn't vital to Austin eventually becoming the biggest thing around ? Just because the WWF didn't picked on it immediately ?

 

To answer the bolded part : because he didn't. He didn't book alone during that period. Hell, like Charles said, Corny was around until as late as 1998, when the turnaround was already done and Austin was the hottest thing. Pritchard was also there. And of course, Vince himself. The filters aren't overstated. I'm not saying he didn't contribute, but Russo without filter got exposed immediately, and le's not go into "oh, but he couldn't do what he wanted in WCW" since it was the exact same shit in TNA. When you're a failure 95% of your whole career, when you can spot the patterns of his whole "creative spectrum" after going through his stints in details (and yeah, I've done that both for WCW and early TNA, the masochist that I am), it's easy to expose his way of thinking and writing. It's not like he's that creative to begin with (the word "creative" is so overrated anyway, especially in pro-wrestling).

 

There's probably something to be said about some of his ideas going through the Vince filter, working with Austin & Rock & Foley, simply being repeated everywhere else because the guy had no notion of why it worked before (context, worker). Which is another proof, if needed, he's a clueless idiot.

[El-P]

And more importantly than all of that, it was Cornette who kept Kane and Undertaker apart and developed the idea of Kane trying to get at Undertaker by destroying other people. Russo wanted Undertaker to come right back and drive Kane through a table or something like a week after Badd Blood.

 

See : Angle vs Joe, part 2. Their first match was a classic, basic build with them not touching, mostly put together by Mantell. It made TNA its biggest PPV number. The follow-up was classic Russo hotshotting and bullshit, which was the beginning of the end for Joe after a tremendous year and a half.

[iamthedoctor]

Table for 3 with Jim Cornette, Eric Bischoff, and Michael PS Hayes was the best episode of that show ever, by a country mile. It's just a shame that an obviously much longer conversation got cut down to 19 minutes.

 

I kinda wish Vince Russo would get back into WWE's good graces, at least as a "talking head," so he can appear on these sorts of things. I know there was new footage of him shot for the Monday Night War series and a couple of other things, but not much.

 

Cornette said on his podcast they filmed 90 mins worth of footage. Why cant they just air these things uncut?

[C.S.]

Cornette said on his podcast they filmed 90 mins worth of footage. Why cant they just air these things uncut?

Agreed. I'd even settle for 75 minutes to eliminate the inevitable Cornette profanity and anything that goes against the "WWE narrative."

 

19 minutes seems like a cruel joke.

[sek69]

Vince vs Roman in one night got PHILLY to chant you deserve it for Roman. The Authority figure vs wrestler hasn't worked the same since Vince/Austin because....Vince is one of a kind. So was Austin, but it was more Vince. The follow up authority figures were Steph/HHH, Eric Bischoff, Stephanie McMahon, Paul Heyman, and eventually HHH/Steph again.

 

Vince vs Hogan and Vince vs HBK also worked, very, very well, arguably stealing the shows and build at both of their respective WMs.

 

Mr. McMahon is probably the best heel character in wrestling history. Vince was willing to do whatever it took to get the babyface over, which is most of the reason why it doesn't work when anyone else tries to copy it. They get the asshole boss part down pat, but forget the part where you stooge all over the place to make the babyface strong. No one else does that part, due to the usual fragile wrestler ego syndrome, where Vince didn't have to worry about that since he owned the company and didn't care if he looked like a goofball.

[sek69]

Also we're set to get a mega dump of new collections on Monday, not the least of which being one dedicated to Bruno.

[El-P]

Mr. McMahon is probably the best heel character in wrestling history.

 

For a few months facing Austin. And then it jumped the shark quickly. Vince was awesome at the beginning of the Austin feud. By "It was me all along !", I was already dead tired of him. When he was still around a few years later facing Hulk Hogan on an equal footing, it was completely ridiculous.

[sek69]

Even at his most ridiculous, it was still better than anyone else who's done it since.

 

 

 

ETA: Him coming out and taking bumps and pratfalls for Roman at an advanced age did more to get him over in one night than years of him facing off against the unbeatable Authority.

[El-P]

Not hard to be better than Trip, Stephy or, gasp, Dixie. But it's a role that has totally hampered my enjoyment of US pro-wrestling. Blame Bischoff I guess (gotta give the devil its due, he did it before Vince and was quite good at it too).

 

Wait. The expection being of course DARIO MF CUETO, who's not even in the same league.

[sek69]

Not to be Well Actually Guy, but wasn't Vince doing proto Mr. McMahon in the USWA years before Eric?

[El-P]

No, because he was a guy from another promotion, not "evil boss".

[Matt D]

The one missing from the list is "Heel insults babyface's honor/family/injures family member/friend. Babyface gets revenge." Whether it's Macho and Flair with Liz or the Nightmares injuring Johnny Rich so Tommy comes in to get revenge or what or Sullivan and Dusty's "Sister."

[Johnny Sorrow]

Ron Funches is fucking awesome.