2014 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame thread

[Cox]

So from the breakdown posted in the issue it looks like Carlos Colon didn't get in because no one in the former wrestler category voted for him. Kind of odd there's sort of an unofficial blackball going on yet Benoit skated on his recall vote. Say what you will about the Brody deal but it's not like Carlos was the one who killed the guy.

Benoit didn't skate on his recall vote. In fact, a majority voted for him to come out. But he didn't receive the required 60% of the vote to get yanked, so he remains in.

[Childs]

 

As for Murdoch getting the boot, it is telling that the categories I respect the least (reporters and active wrestlers) are where he faltered ...

 

 

I always knew you were misguided.

[goodhelmet]

Hahaha. As a sports reporter, who do you value the most when you looking at those with Hall of Fame votes?

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

2024 for Murdoch......well we have 10 years to do research!!!!!!!

Plus 10 years for Parv to drive Will mad!!!!

 

Parv doesn't concern me. He has no banning powers.

I do. People will be mad I banned him for like a day and then we will move on like he was never here.

 

Would spell the end for my podcasting days. Then again, I have two books to write in a year, so might not be a bad thing ...

[JerryvonKramer]

I continue to be baffled by Ivan Koloff's failure to get inducted.

Yip. Even Meltzer himself said he's one of the strongest guys left on the ballot.

[kjh]

"Their returns to the ballot will be 30 years after their last year as a significant star and major player."

 

2024 seems a long time to put Murdoch back on the ballot as a historical candidate based on this criterion. 1988 was really the last year Murdoch was a Hall Of Fame level star/worker.

Regarding Ivan Koloff, it will be tough for him to get voted in as a modern U.S./Canada candidate, as things stand. His prime was in the late 1960s and 1970s, long before many voters started watching wrestling (or were even born). It's not impossible for someone like that to get voted in, but usually it requires a death bump.

It does look like we may have some lean years without many candidates getting in. The Mexican voters continue to cancel each other out. Punk only got 19%, which suggests Bryan and Orton won't come close next year either. Colon just looks like he'll never get over the hump. Ditto The Assassins.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think the thing to bump Ivan will be getting inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame, and possibly the documentary will help.

[shakla]

"Their returns to the ballot will be 30 years after their last year as a significant star and major player."

 

2024 seems a long time to put Murdoch back on the ballot as a historical candidate based on this criterion. 1988 was really the last year Murdoch was a Hall Of Fame level star/worker.

 

So Murdoch was still a "major player" when he was in that garbage man outfit in the early 90s with Dick Slater? Or the Slamboree where he did the headscissors?

 

I'm going to take it that it's time spent in a major promotion, as long as they weren't a non-descript job guy or such. It could get too subjective to determine when someone was a mid-carder or "didn't draw". You could even argue that Moolah would count for 1999/2000 since she won the WWF women's title, even though she was a joke character.

[hammerva]

As much as I like Murdoch, thank god he isn't available until 2024 because I am not sure I can handle hours and hours and hours year after year on why he isn't going to make it. The Zabruder film on Kennedy getting shot wasn't dissected this much.

 

Maybe a couple years off is a good thing.

[Cox]

I really don't get AJ Styles returning to the ballot next year. I know he just had a really good year in New Japan, but we are a year removed from Styles being on the ballot and having one of the worst voting percentages in the history of this project (and I think Dave might have said he had the lowest voting percentage ever, but I'm not 100% sure on that). Even after a really good year, shouldn't a guy who had such a poor showing in his first time on the ballot have to wait about 5 years, minimum, before he can sniff the ballot again? At a minimum, I think more context for his past year in New Japan is required just to see if it was a one-year aberration or the start of an actual sustained run. And clearly, nothing Styles had done up until this point resonated with voters enough to where they believed it was positive towards his Hall of Fame candidacy. I can't imagine that this past year, as good as it might have been, was enough to get Styles to go from less than 10% of the vote (and a historic low voting percentage) to the 60% required to make the HOF. Part of the reason Dave just instituted this 15 year rule was to eliminate some of the dead weight from the ballot, so what's the rush? Just because a few people said they would vote for him? I don't get the way Dave goes about this sometimes.

[Grimmas]

As much as I like Murdoch, thank god he isn't available until 2024 because I am not sure I can handle hours and hours and hours year after year on why he isn't going to make it. The Zabruder film on Kennedy getting shot wasn't dissected this much.

 

Maybe a couple years off is a good thing.

That's the thing about Murdoch, he's talked about a lot, but has anyone actually done the research on him as a draw?

[Grimmas]

I really don't get AJ Styles returning to the ballot next year. I know he just had a really good year in New Japan, but we are a year removed from Styles being on the ballot and having one of the worst voting percentages in the history of this project (and I think Dave might have said he had the lowest voting percentage ever, but I'm not 100% sure on that). Even after a really good year, shouldn't a guy who had such a poor showing in his first time on the ballot have to wait about 5 years, minimum, before he can sniff the ballot again? At a minimum, I think more context for his past year in New Japan is required just to see if it was a one-year aberration or the start of an actual sustained run. And clearly, nothing Styles had done up until this point resonated with voters enough to where they believed it was positive towards his Hall of Fame candidacy. I can't imagine that this past year, as good as it might have been, was enough to get Styles to go from less than 10% of the vote (and a historic low voting percentage) to the 60% required to make the HOF. Part of the reason Dave just instituted this 15 year rule was to eliminate some of the dead weight from the ballot, so what's the rush? Just because a few people said they would vote for him? I don't get the way Dave goes about this sometimes.

Dave clearly doesn't think reflection is important for the hall of fame.

 

The way I see it is, that people should be post prime before they are on the ballot, or even later. What the heck is the rush to vote for Tanahashi while he is still a main eventer? Danielson/CM Punk, etc.. why can't we wait 5-10 years and see how they fit into history.

 

At the minimum the criteria should be like the rock and roll hall of fame of 25 years after their first match.

[El Boricua]

I really don't get AJ Styles returning to the ballot next year. I know he just had a really good year in New Japan, but we are a year removed from Styles being on the ballot and having one of the worst voting percentages in the history of this project (and I think Dave might have said he had the lowest voting percentage ever, but I'm not 100% sure on that). Even after a really good year, shouldn't a guy who had such a poor showing in his first time on the ballot have to wait about 5 years, minimum, before he can sniff the ballot again? At a minimum, I think more context for his past year in New Japan is required just to see if it was a one-year aberration or the start of an actual sustained run. And clearly, nothing Styles had done up until this point resonated with voters enough to where they believed it was positive towards his Hall of Fame candidacy. I can't imagine that this past year, as good as it might have been, was enough to get Styles to go from less than 10% of the vote (and a historic low voting percentage) to the 60% required to make the HOF. Part of the reason Dave just instituted this 15 year rule was to eliminate some of the dead weight from the ballot, so what's the rush? Just because a few people said they would vote for him? I don't get the way Dave goes about this sometimes.

 

It's because AJ has been bathed in the mystical waters of wrestling on top in good/great matches in Japan.

[soup23]

AJ Styles has been in great matches this year.

 

He was not a good draw in New Japan. He did draw some on the indies but that shouldn't be close to HOF level.

 

The Murdoch 2024 is perplexing to me. I could see an argument for 2021 with the Hardliners stuff but where the fuck was he a major player in 1994 wrestling?

[JerryvonKramer]

By the way, I don't have any respect for the HoF any more. It's clear that many of the voters put little to no thought into it (see Brock vote), and it's clear that contemporary candidates have priority with the voting block over historical ones. Probably half the people who have ballots or more, really aren't in an informed enough position to have a proper vote.

 

It's fun to debate, but it's a joke in my book.

[funkdoc]

The Murdoch 2024 is perplexing to me. I could see an argument for 2021 with the Hardliners stuff but where the fuck was he a major player in 1994 wrestling?

 

smoky mountain??? i *think* that was when he had the mini-feud with bob armstrong...

[cm funk]

I find the guys off the ballot being slotted to return in the 2020's-30's pretty funny

 

I mean, Dave is in his mid 50's? Is the WON HOF even going to be around that long? And without Dave would it continue to be a thing? Who would pick it up and carry it after him? Alvarez? Bix?

 

It all seems very silly. I can't imagine the WON or the WONHOF continuing on or meaning anything without Dave

[mookeighana]

Updated with some additional ballots.

 

People trending over 40% - actual results in Red

AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC ISLANDS/CARIBBEAN/AFRICA -- Carlos Colon (12 out of 12) = 100% -- #2 for Reporters, #8 for Historians, 76 votes out of 136 voters; 56% of voters

EUROPE -- Big Daddy (2 out of 4) = 50% -- #6 for Reporters; 46 votes out of 107 voters; 43%of voters

HISTORICAL -- Stanley Weston (7 out of 16) = 44% -- #19 for Reporters; #14 for Historians; 75 votes out of 242 voters; 31% of voters

JAPAN -- Gran Hamada (6 out of 13) = 46% -- 30 votes; 29% of voters out of 104 voters; dropped from ballot due to 15 year rule

JAPAN -- Jun Akiyama (6 out of 13) = 46% -- #27 for Reporters; 30 votes out of 104 voters; 29% of voters

MEXICO -- Cien Caras (8 out of 9) = 89% -- #4 for Historians; #4 for Reporters; 53 votes out of 98 voters; 54% of voters

MEXICO -- El Signo & El Texano & Negro Navarro (5 out of 9) = 56% -- #24 for Reporters; 35 votes out of 98 voters; 36% of voters

MEXICO -- Karloff Lagarde (4 out of 9) = 44% -- #5 for Reporters; #28 for Historians; 47 votes out of 98 voters; 48% of voters

MODERN -- Brock Lesnar (9 out of 22) = 41% -- #1 for Reporters; #2 for Historians; 185 votes out of 330 voters; 56% of voters

MODERN -- Dick Murdoch (10 out of 22) = 45% -- #10 for Reporters; #29 for Historians; 147 votes out of 330 voters; 45% of voters

MODERN -- Ivan Koloff (12 out of 22) = 55% -- #15 for Reporters; #7 for Historians, 159 votes out of 330 voters; 48% of voters

MODERN -- Jerry Jarrett (10 out of 22) = 45% -- #8 for Reporters; #30 for Historians; 145 votes out of 330 voters; 44% of voters;

MODERN -- Jesse Ventura (10 out of 22) = 45% -- #22 for Reporters; #16 for Historians; 139 votes out of 330 voters; 42% of voters; dropped from ballot due to 15 year rule

MODERN -- Jimmy Hart (10 out of 22) = 45% -- #17 for Reporters; 117 votes out of 330 voters; 36% of voters

MODERN -- Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson) (17 out of 22) = 77% -- #3 for Reporters; #5 for Historians; 212 votes out of 330 voters; 64% of voters

 

So, I ended up collecting around 25 ballots. The people who did the best on my sample were R&R, Ivan Koloff, Cien Caras, Carlos Colon and Missionaries of Death.

The top four finishers were R&R, Brock Lesnar, Carlos Colon and Cien Caras. So, we identified three of the top five (R&R, Colon, Caras) very strongly.

Volk Han and Anderson were the #5 and #6 (neither made my cut). #7 was Ivan Koloff.

 

I've updated the actual results in red and included where various candidates finished among reporters & historians which were the ballots that I ended up collecting.

 

(The line between who is a "reporter" and who is a "historian" is always fuzzy. I do research on results and publish stats. At the same time I write about modern wrestling and the WWE business for Bleacher Report. No idea which one Dave counts me as.)

 

People who on both Historians/Reporters top 30 list:

 

Brock Lesnar: Historians #2 / Reporters #1

Cien Caras: Historians #4 / Reporters #4

Rock & Roll Express: Historians #5 / Reporters #3

Carlos Colon: Historians #8 / Reporters #2

Ivan Koloff: Historians #7 / Reporters #15

Bill Apter: Historians #11 / Reporters #16

Gene & Ole Anderson: Historians #18 / Reporters #12

Stanley Weston: Historians #14 / Reporters #19

Karloff Lagarde: Historians #28 / Reporters #5

Jerry Jarrett: Historians #30 / Reporters #8

Jesse Ventura: Historians #16 / Reporters #22

Dick Murdoch: Historians #10 / Reporters #29

Blue Panther: Historians #15 / Reporters #25

Jim Crockett Sr.: Historians #24 / Reporters #18

Pedro Morales: Historians #22 / Reporters #23

Sting: Historians #27 / Reporters #21

(I underlined the people who weren't mentioned on my original list.)

The people who finished above 40% that weren't yet mentioned were Volk Han (#3 with Historians, #4 with Active wrestlers), The Assassins (#5 for Former Wrestlers, #14 for Active Wrestlers, #9 for Reporters, #19 Historians), Sharpe Brothers (#7 for Reporters, #26 for Active Wrestlers), Mark Lewin (#9 for Historians, #13 for Former Wrestlers).

[soup23]

 

The Murdoch 2024 is perplexing to me. I could see an argument for 2021 with the Hardliners stuff but where the fuck was he a major player in 1994 wrestling?

 

smoky mountain??? i *think* that was when he had the mini-feud with bob armstrong...

 

It was but that still feels very temporary and bit player. It is a minor point but sometimes these arbitrary years and Dave's thinking drives me a little crazy.

[Sean Liska]

AJ Styles has been in great matches this year.

 

He was not a good draw in New Japan. He did draw some on the indies but that shouldn't be close to HOF level.

 

The Murdoch 2024 is perplexing to me. I could see an argument for 2021 with the Hardliners stuff but where the fuck was he a major player in 1994 wrestling?

Supposedly he headlined the most successful "normal" Sumo Hall show in like 10 years. I have some doubts about the attendance reported, but Dave says it's legit.

 

(normal meaning not a G-1 Final, not something like the combined NJPW/AJPW 40-year anniversary show)

[goodhelmet]

 

As much as I like Murdoch, thank god he isn't available until 2024 because I am not sure I can handle hours and hours and hours year after year on why he isn't going to make it. The Zabruder film on Kennedy getting shot wasn't dissected this much.

 

Maybe a couple years off is a good thing.

That's the thing about Murdoch, he's talked about a lot, but has anyone actually done the research on him as a draw?

 

 

No, which is what Kris and I were in the middle of doing. I was hoping he would hit the 50% mark so we could continue but I may continue anyway with a Gordy list to wrap it up.

 

After that, I think Jimmy Hart's run in Memphis may be a nice project to work on.

[WrestlingPower]

So how many heads exploded hearing Dave's remarks over Fabulous Ones not being on the ballot next year? Important to mention that he did not immediately say "Stan Lane's already in". He said "I don't see them as HOFers". I thought that was the point of putting it up for a vote. He did say though that no one has pushed for them to be on the ballot. As mentioned already in the thread I'd rather see more movement of names on & off the ballot than for Dave or a small handful of people to decide who deserves consideration ahead of time.

[Dylan Waco]

Him exempting Morales from his own rule is bullshit, more later.

[KrisZ]

By the way, I don't have any respect for the HoF any more. It's clear that many of the voters put little to no thought into it (see Brock vote), and it's clear that contemporary candidates have priority with the voting block over historical ones. Probably half the people who have ballots or more, really aren't in an informed enough position to have a proper vote.

 

It's fun to debate, but it's a joke in my book.

 

I think there are a lot of people that think like that and they have a reason to.

 

Regarding the new criteria it's pretty ridiculous and it's kinda taken the passion away from it from my perspective. If Lesnar leaves WWE and signs with an MMA group then has a fight he will be a stone cold lock for the HOF. The "historians" and reporters are such marks for him it's crazy.

[Loss]

I was talking to Kris about this on Twitter and I'm interested in raising the topic here too.

 

I understand why wrestlers hold Jerry Jarrett's low payoffs against him. But why doesn't he have near unanimous support from historians? What's the historical argument against Jerry Jarrett? Kris suspects that it's simply a matter of anti-Tennessee bias, but I figured most of the people who looked down on Memphis wrestling in that manner are dead now. I'm not sure what it is.