Ricky 'The Dragon' Steamboat

[Danish Dynamite]

Cool. No one's given me a reason to remove Steamboat from my top 25. One of the guys who could elevate wrestling to something even better than entertainment.

[JerryvonKramer]

Watching Steamboat in 78 really enhanced his case for me because it gives you a sense how over he was. And how exciting a talent he was.

 

Top top babyface. We all gushed a bit on the Titans Mid-Atlantic shows.

[shoe]

A bit.

[Danish Dynamite]

Yup. Those Titans shows got me rewatching his 78 stuff. ... And that got me rewatching highlights from all his years. Not a fan of his promos, his wife's presence at ringside or the Little Dragon (his son, dammit! No innuendos here). But close to perfect babyface and one of my absolute favorites from bell to bell. The WMIII and the Flair 89 series is absolutely not overrated. The Rude match is possibly my favorite Iron Man match. And he's just a joy to watch in even lesser matches.

[goodhelmet]

Steamboat is a guy I willhave high on my list but I wwant to address the criticism of him overselling and acting melodramatic in the ring. When you watch that arena footage, or any handheld footage really, he is definitely a guy who plays to the cheap seats. It doesn't always translate well to TV matches but it absolutely works in those arena matches he was working day in and day out.

[Danish Dynamite]

He's definetely not a great actor. Not a subtle one at least. I think you're right, helmet. He always seemed to me, to be one of the pre-ppv guys mainly. Someone, as you say, really tuned in to working the arena matches. It's a totally different beast to be able to perfectly work a match and not oversell it, when you have a camera right in your face, and still be able to communicate to the nosebleeds. ... Has anyone ever truly mastered doing both at the same time? I'd love to hear examples of it from any of you. ... Actors on stage can also come off as overacting, when a play is filmed and rewatched later. ... You have a good point, and it will probably keep Steamboat out of my top 10. But I'll also have him high on my list.

 

NB: When I say "pre-ppv" guy, I am fully aware that he's in several of my all time favorite ppv and tv matches. That just makes him even more impressive, in my mind.

[DR Ackermann]

Would it be fair to say that Steamboat's peak was in the 90s? I've enjoyed so much more of his stuff from WCW in that era, particularly 91-92, than anything else besides maybe 1989 but I haven't seen the 89 Flair matches in probably 7 or 8 years. He just seems to be operating on a much higher level to me as far as his match structure goes.

[JerryvonKramer]

Would it be fair to say that Steamboat's peak was in the 90s? I've enjoyed so much more of his stuff from WCW in that era, particularly 91-92, than anything else besides maybe 1989 but I haven't seen the 89 Flair matches in probably 7 or 8 years. He just seems to be operating on a much higher level to me as far as his match structure goes.

In terms of his overness you have to see late 70s stuff, but I'd go along with his late WCW run being more satisfying that early 80s, especially his All Japan runs. Steamer was kinda boring in Japan. And, well, WWF is WWF.

[Parties]

I'm not someone who would vote based on crowd reactions, but I actually came in here to talk about how incredibly over he is in that live 70s Mid-Atlantic footage. I would be hard pressed to name a louder babyface response in-ring: whether that's the way the audio works may be part of it, but it's undeniably an incredible response. Some of that is that the crowd was rabid for Flair too, and that the whole territory seems to have been getting incredible reactions from the fans, but Steamboat's pops are the rare exception where the degree to which he was over actually makes his matches that much better for me.

 

I've heard the "overacting" critique on him before. With selling, I say better too much than too little. The times when I find people sell too much are when they're selling in a way that seems incorrect/unrealistic to the nature of actual fighting. Guys who sell a chop to the chest and a punch in the nose with equal measure. Steamboat's approach is definitely pretty theatrical, but I can appreciate it as "playing to the last row" as others have said. What looks like overacting to some (something like Nic Cage in "Vampire's Kiss" or Pacino in lots of stuff) is viewed as aptly passionate by others.

[El-P]

Steamboat is a guy I willhave high on my list but I wwant to address the criticism of him overselling and acting melodramatic in the ring.

 

I'll admit it, sometimes, I find his overdramatic selling totally ridiculous (and I'm an Onita fan). I mean, like HTM once said, he does act like he's been shot by a gun after taking a single chop, and at times, it's just looks stupid. And I don't buy the "playing to the cheap seats" argument, for the simple reason he's the only great babyface from the era that went to those extremes in term of overracting. Ricky Morton, arguably the best babyface ever in the US, didn't overact like that. Rick Martel didn't overact like that. It was just Steamboat's thing.

 

The other criticism I have is that some of his "martial art" offense looks like goofy cartoon shit. Once you accept it, it's like Tenryu's enzuigiri or the People's elbow, you don't pay attention and pop for the comebacks, but if we have to be fair… doesn't look very convincing.

 

That's the two criticism I'll have for Steamboat, who's obviously is an all-time great, that goes without saying.

[Jingus]

The other criticism I have is that some of his "martial art" offense looks like goofy cartoon shit. Once you accept it, it's like Tenryu's enzuigiri or the People's elbow, you don't pay attention and pop for the comebacks, but if we have to be fair… doesn't look very convincing.

I love Steamboat more than most people here do, but this point is absolutely true. Steamboat was much better when he stuck to amateur greco-roman stuff mixed with his trademarked work-the-arm offense, he was a pretty poor martial artist.

 

Of course, "karate fighter" is maybe the worst in-ring gimmick anyone can have, and practically nobody can sell it believably and have good matches at the same time. Trying to do this bullshit was a major part of killing Billy Graham's career. Has ANYONE ever made a successful career out of it? All I can remember are guys like Glacier and Steve Blackman, who were walking examples of why nobody should try to wrestle like that. Even heavily gimmicked "martial arts strikers" like Low-Ki, Rob Van Dam, or even Shinya Hashimoto used the karate stuff as just one part of their much larger overall bag of movez. The only really successful guys I can think of with martial arts styles were basically MMA hybrid fighters, dudes like Taz or Brock or pick-your-favorite-worked-shooter-here. They used plenty of strikes, but focused more heavily on submissions and suplexes and whatnot.

[Bix]

When it comes to wrestlers I've interviewed, Steamboat us the elite when it comes to explaining in rung psychology, selling, laying out a match, etc. And not in the Raven "do as I say but not as I do" way, either: Everything he'd say, when I visualized it in my head, I could remember him doing it. He definitely seems like a guy who had much more of a "process" than, say, Flair, and you can sort of see that in his matches. The "Training Ground" feature in did in FSM with him a few months ago is a good glimpse into that.

 

With regards to the Cornette garbage films, there are more complete or nearly complete matches on there than people realize. I remember at least one or two 20 minute Steamboat vs. Flair matches on there.

 

I don't think the Muraco matches are necessarily a negative per we, but they stand out because:

 

1. It was his his first real WWF program.

2. He always lists Muraco as one of his best opponents along with Flair, Savage, Jake Roberts, and the Slaughter/Kernodle team.

 

I haven't seen the Toronto match mentioned above, though I remember kind of liking the Cap Centre tag with JYD and Fuji for the brawling and crowd reactions. Maybe I should find an excuse to ring him up and ask why Muraco over Rude, Austin, Valentine, Arn, or whoever.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

The other criticism I have is that some of his "martial art" offense looks like goofy cartoon shit. Once you accept it, it's like Tenryu's enzuigiri or the People's elbow, you don't pay attention and pop for the comebacks, but if we have to be fair… doesn't look very convincing.

I love Steamboat more than most people here do, but this point is absolutely true. Steamboat was much better when he stuck to amateur greco-roman stuff mixed with his trademarked work-the-arm offense, he was a pretty poor martial artist.

 

Of course, "karate fighter" is maybe the worst in-ring gimmick anyone can have, and practically nobody can sell it believably and have good matches at the same time. Trying to do this bullshit was a major part of killing Billy Graham's career. Has ANYONE ever made a successful career out of it? All I can remember are guys like Glacier and Steve Blackman, who were walking examples of why nobody should try to wrestle like that. Even heavily gimmicked "martial arts strikers" like Low-Ki, Rob Van Dam, or even Shinya Hashimoto used the karate stuff as just one part of their much larger overall bag of movez. The only really successful guys I can think of with martial arts styles were basically MMA hybrid fighters, dudes like Taz or Brock or pick-your-favorite-worked-shooter-here. They used plenty of strikes, but focused more heavily on submissions and suplexes and whatnot.

 

 

I dislike martial arts gimmicks, but for some reason they were successful in the UK. Kung Fu had a long and successful career doing a martial arts gimmick. Clive Myers spent a large chunk of his career doing a similar gimmick, and there were other acts like Sammy Lee and Chris Adams that were successful. Kendo Nagasaki worked a quasi-martial arts gimmick and there were numerous guys who played up their judo background even if they didn't necessarily wear a gi or wrestle barefoot.

[dawho5]

I imagine it helps that the British style is not as strike-based as the American style of wrestling. You'd get maybe a few "martial arts" strikes in and go back to the matwork after some kind of takedown. Not like it had to be 50% or more of the actual contest.

[Jetlag]

When it comes to wrestlers I've interviewed, Steamboat us the elite when it comes to explaining in rung psychology, selling, laying out a match, etc. And not in the Raven "do as I say but not as I do" way, either: Everything he'd say, when I visualized it in my head, I could remember him doing it. He definitely seems like a guy who had much more of a "process" than, say, Flair, and you can sort of see that in his matches. The "Training Ground" feature in did in FSM with him a few months ago is a good glimpse into that.

 

 

I think for someone who is thought of as quintessential babyface Steamboat's ability to go outside the typical formula is really remarkable. I watched Steamboat vs. Orndorff from Halloween Havoc today and, while not a great match, it shows what Steamboat was capable of. He does some really nasty armwork almost ripping Orndorffs fingers off. Orndorff's (inital) selling helps, but Steamboat has a Hashimoto like intensity where you think he is going to attack Orndorff to the point the referee will stop the match. After that the match turns into almost a WCWified NOAH structure with a few perfectly timed bumps (including Steamboat missing a charge flying over the top rope from the ramp) and excellent build to Steamboat's crossbody finisher, including landing a flying karate chop on the ramp and then in the ring for a great nearfall. They could have done a generic heat/shine structure no problem, but decided to something more interesting. The Beach Blast match is probably the best example of Steamboat's ability to do a little more complex stuff than anyone else at the time. Really interesting worker.

[DR Ackermann]

Steamboats biggest drawback is his poor offense. He might have the worst offense of anyone who will be on my list. But that he was as great as he was in spite of that says a lot.

[Grimmas]

Steamboats biggest drawback is his poor offense. He might have the worst offense of anyone who will be on my list. But that he was as great as he was in spite of that says a lot.

His chops were really good. His armdrags were the best ever. What part of his offense wasn't good?

[DR Ackermann]

His awkward "punches," his chops to the head. On offense he looked physically stiff and awkward. It didn't look painful. He did do an arm drag, yes. And he had good chops. The rest was pretty shitty looking and lacked impact.

[DR Ackermann]

If you didn't find his offense weak then you didn't find his offense weak. I personally thought it looked soft and eye-rollingly pathetic most of the time. That I still see him as an all time great is a credit to how good he was at most everything else.

[WingedEagle]

The armdrags were great and I liked his chops to the body. My biggest gripe is his incredibly over the top selling as though he'd been shot. As in with a firearm. Outside of the Flair matches and certain Dangerous Alliance-era pairings, that really takes me out of a lot of his matches. Its why the Savage matches never rated as anything spectacular in my book. A great example of someone who could deliver when reigned in. Good, not great, because comic book offense doesn't do much for me.

[DR Ackermann]

Steamboat's 1990s puts him in the top half for me. Without his WCW run from that era he wouldn't rate too high. He pulled it all together during that time to be one of the best in the world.

[jdw]

I love Steamboat's theatrical selling. For fuck's sake, this is a board that's going to have over-the-top theatrical guys like Lawler, Terry, Flair and Fujiwara high in the GWE poll. Steamer's selling was great.

[Loss]

I don't have a problem with Steamboat's selling being overly theatrical as much as I do not always thinking it was the appropriate selling for the particular moment. His bounce up and throw shadow punches selling of Luger's three clotheslines at Bash '89 was maybe my least favorite moment of his entire career. Still, it's a minor issue at best, and not enough of an issue for me to knock him down a peg or anything like that.

[jdw]

I'd offer up that pretty much every time I watch a Terry Funk match with Yohe, he finds Terry's selling appropriate for almost *any* moment in the match.

 

Here at PWO and various places that "think like us" see Terry as a God of Selling, and we eat up all his carny bullshit goofball nutty theatrical over-the-top selling like it's manna from heaven. At some point, a decade and a half ago, one of us started making the argument that Terry's selling was fucking GREAT~! I don't know if it was Jewett (who always loved Terry's carny shit) or Dylan or if it's something the DVDVR Boyz are going to claim. But someone tossed out that idea that slithered up out of the oooooooozzzze, and over time we all accepted it. Yes, Terry's selling is fucking silly as all shit, but we love that silly shit.

 

I'm tossing this one out: Steamer's selling is fucking great. It's pro wrestling. Not a thing Flair does is believable, pretty much all of it is over the top, but we accept it because it's pro wrestling bullshit. Same goes for Steamer. I don't want him to sell like Misawa, or Bret, or Hogan, or Toyota, or Kobashi, or pull a strap down like Lawler. Rick sells like Rick Steamboat, and it's glorious.

[Jimmy Redman]

I agree with the last point made above. Steamboat was Steamboat. Goofy OTT selling and karate chops and shit might not be for everyone, but it sure as hell works for me.

 

He's a great working babyface, theatrical as well as physical. He's not really physical in a rough sense, but more like an athlete. Great singles stuff with Flair, Savage, Rude, Bret off the top of my head, and great tag stuff with Final Conflict, vs Dream Team, vs Dangerous Alliance. Doesn't hurt that the Flair matches are some of the best matches of all time.

 

What are some more recs from the early 90s WCW period? Specifically singles. I've seen lots of tag matches, and the Rude and Austin matches.