Hell In A Cell - Live As It Happens

[Loss]

Feel free to keep debating Hell in a Cell and the various reactions to Hell in a Cell. If you want to criticize evilclown's book or his other work, that's fine too, but can I ask that we start a separate thread for it? Focusing on last night's show should be the focus of this particular thread. Thank you.

[Blehschmidt]

I'm mad because I want to be entertained, want to watch a story play out, and they fucked the ending up. If the Lion King ended with Simba jobbing to Scar after a random wilderbeast knocked him off the ledge to set up Lion King 2: Simba vs The Wilderbeasts, I'd think that was a shitty ending to the story they were telling, even if I ended up liking Lion King 2. I watched this whole damn feud. I just wanted to see the right ending. But they gave me a shitty ending instead. That doesn't entertain me, that frustrates me.

 

This may be the best possible description of the ending to the pay per view I have seen anywhere on the internet.

[Coffey]

So after taking out pretty much both The Big Show & Mark Henry last night, what's next for Rusev & Lana? Dude seems to be going places to me. Got a rub from The Rock, even. Pretty crazy that out of the roster, The Rock came out to confront Rusev & Lana...but I think that made him seem like a bigger star. Not having to cheat to beat The Big Show is pretty great too.

 

I do think that Mark Henry will still turn on The Big Show but I'm curious where Rusev goes next.

 

I would like for it to be either Ryback or Sheamus but I'm not sure if either of those will be in the cards. Rusev as U.S. Champion could work if he renamed it the Russian Title or something but the midcard belts are death for a lot of wrestlers nowadays, so I'm not sure.

 

I definitely think he's the best part of the show though. Well above my enjoyment of other people like Ambrose. I am hoping for a Luke Harper solo push though. That should be fun.

[rovert]

Feel free to keep debating Hell in a Cell and the various reactions to Hell in a Cell. If you want to criticize evilclown's book or his other work, that's fine too, but can I ask that we start a separate thread for it? Focusing on last night's show should be the focus of this particular thread. Thank you.

 

Can I just say WingedEagle is talking complete and utter nonsense about Snowden's book.

Overall I agree with Snowden at times people here can be too detached from enjoying and consuming the show as a fan. His approach in talking could be better obviously.

I don't understand the anger or surprise over WWE being WWE. Have learnt to pretty much to embrace it. A Hologram? BUT OF COURSE.

[Steenalized]

 

Feel free to keep debating Hell in a Cell and the various reactions to Hell in a Cell. If you want to criticize evilclown's book or his other work, that's fine too, but can I ask that we start a separate thread for it? Focusing on last night's show should be the focus of this particular thread. Thank you.

 

Can I just say WingedEagle is talking complete and utter nonsense about Snowden's book.

Overall I agree with Snowden at times people here can be too detached from enjoying and consuming the show as a fan. His approach in talking could be better obviously.

I don't understand the anger or surprise over WWE being WWE. Have learnt to pretty much to embrace it. A Hologram? BUT OF COURSE.

 

I don't want to enjoy wrestling ironically. I sincerely enjoy it and would rather not have to justify bad booking and kitsch.

[rovert]

I don't want to enjoy wrestling ironically. I sincerely enjoy it and would rather not have to justify bad booking and kitsch.

 

Then watch an actual Wrestling company. WWE has always leaned on kitsch and spectacle.

 

I've made the same arguments for a trolling end many times but WWE IS Sports Entertainment it is a different genre, it isn't booking it IS Creative for them. They hire writers to come up with creative and goofy stuff not bookers to book towns. Hardly a newsflash but seem to eer back to them being a Wrestling company.

[NintendoLogic]

The implicit likening of current WWE to the Revolver/Sgt. Pepper's-era Beatles is almost as hilarious as that R-Truth gif.

[Steenalized]

 

I don't want to enjoy wrestling ironically. I sincerely enjoy it and would rather not have to justify bad booking and kitsch.

 

Then watch an actual Wrestling company. WWE has always leaned on kitsch and spectacle.

 

I've made the same arguments for a trolling end many times but WWE IS Sports Entertainment it is a different genre, it isn't booking it IS Creative for them. They hire writers to come up with creative and goofy stuff not bookers to book towns. Hardly a newsflash but seem to eer back to them being a Wrestling company.

 

Except they still put on wrestling matches in a wrestling ring and occasionally do things right. I don't hate watch Raw. I watch Raw almost every week because I do enjoy it. However, it's frustrating to know that they have all this great talent and to know that they can do great stuff, only for them to crap the bed.

[Loss]

Most people who don't like what WWE is producing now have liked it at some point. So the idea that WWE is incapable of making them happy when they have liked WWE in the past is something I don't get.

[Bix]

 

I don't want to enjoy wrestling ironically. I sincerely enjoy it and would rather not have to justify bad booking and kitsch.

 

Then watch an actual Wrestling company. WWE has always leaned on kitsch and spectacle.

 

I've made the same arguments for a trolling end many times but WWE IS Sports Entertainment it is a different genre, it isn't booking it IS Creative for them. They hire writers to come up with creative and goofy stuff not bookers to book towns. Hardly a newsflash but seem to eer back to them being a Wrestling company.

At least in the case of the main event finish, though, there's still a different expectation for something like Seth Rollins vs Ambrose in a Hell in a Cell match compared to The Undertaker vs. Yokozuna in a casket match.

[WingedEagle]

 

 

Don't they explain the whole literal / metaphor thing in writing 101? Maybe it is meticulously sourced. It just so happens that when reading it the thought that came to mind most often was "huh, this sounded a whole lot better when I first read it in the WON" and the second was "wow, this was poorly edited." In this case, I'm speaking as critic, not fan.

 

 

Considering the bulk of the material in the book was never written about in the Wrestling Observer you can imagine how seriously I'm taking this claim of plagiarism. I'd be happy to engage any specific critiques, but I'm not interested in some kind of personal battle of wills with an anonymous internet guy making pretty absurd and hurtful claims of illegal and unethical behavior.

 

 

Maybe I didn't articulate these ideas well and took things beyond the HIAC discussion. For that, I apologize to anyone I offended and won't raise the topic again.

 

 

But stay the course with such nuanced analysis that says everybody should enjoy whatever is presented to them at all times and avoid any criticism at all. That's the kind of deep, probing thinking that keeps the critics coming back.

 

 

Of course that's not what I wrote at all.

 

 

No? Specifically, you said:

 

 

That's not "trolling." I'm deadly serious. You should be reevaluating everything about how you approach wrestling and whether this is right for you as a fan and a person.

 

Because that was good. It was well performed, to the point even the wrestlers who traditionally struggle seemed to find their path.

 

If you can look at WWE when it is hitting on all cylinders, when the announce team is less annoying than usual, the wrestlers are inspired and one match moves into another and suddenly two hours are gone—and not enjoy it—I legitimately worry that you are incapable of loving it.

 

If that's the case, you are wasting your time. Wasting it. We all learned here that life is fucking short. Don't be cynical and call any dissenting voice a troll. Anything but. I get why you'd want to do so. It's probably deeply disturbing that your identity is called into question.

 

Maybe, just maybe, you aren't a wrestling fan anymore. You're a wrestling observer. A critic. Wrestling has moved to a new place and you can't find it in yourself to make that trip. I'm not blaming you for that. But don't sit in the proverbial stands with your arms crossed across your chest, determined to pick apart any perceived flaws. That's just not healthy. And I can't imagine it is fun.

 

If you can't enjoy something like this it's because you are intent not to.

 

Your words telling people they didn't enjoy the show because they intended not to and should reevaluate themselves as wrestling fans (or were we critics here yet?). And they had to enjoy this show because you said it was good. And if we dare to opine otherwise, we're no longer wrestling fans. Which part of that is not telling people to enjoy the wrestling that is served them and going above and beyond that to tell them if they don't, they're no longer fans?

 

I like, no love to eat. Huge fan of food. My aunt can't cook to save her life. The woman literally screws up boiling vegetables. I'm not exaggerating. This intelligent, otherwise fully functioning adult is rendered an absolute incompetent in the kitchen. But I'm a food fan, so should I eat that garbage and just ask for more?

 

Its effing wrestling. It goes through hot spells and cold spells of various lengths, like many creative endeavors. But since when can fans of the genre not acknowledge the highs and lows? I think The Wire is the greatest TV show I've ever seen. I think Season 4 is far and away the best season of any show I've ever seen and an easy pick for my desert island DVD. In spite of all that am I no longer a fan when I say Season 5 just didn't measure up to what came before it, even if I liked much of it and loved other parts?

 

If Raw tonight kicks ass, I will say so and hope it does. If that happens, I guess I'm a fan again. Fingers crossed for all of us!

[WingedEagle]

 

 

I don't want to enjoy wrestling ironically. I sincerely enjoy it and would rather not have to justify bad booking and kitsch.

 

Then watch an actual Wrestling company. WWE has always leaned on kitsch and spectacle.

 

I've made the same arguments for a trolling end many times but WWE IS Sports Entertainment it is a different genre, it isn't booking it IS Creative for them. They hire writers to come up with creative and goofy stuff not bookers to book towns. Hardly a newsflash but seem to eer back to them being a Wrestling company.

At least in the case of the main event finish, though, there's still a different expectation for something like Seth Rollins vs Ambrose in a Hell in a Cell match compared to The Undertaker vs. Yokozuna in a casket match.

 

 

Exactly. Not every program is booked the same or every match laid out the same. There are different goals and expectations that will bring about difference reactions from the audience. This is good because otherwise the product would get awfully boring.

[rovert]

 

 

I don't want to enjoy wrestling ironically. I sincerely enjoy it and would rather not have to justify bad booking and kitsch.

Then watch an actual Wrestling company. WWE has always leaned on kitsch and spectacle.

 

I've made the same arguments for a trolling end many times but WWE IS Sports Entertainment it is a different genre, it isn't booking it IS Creative for them. They hire writers to come up with creative and goofy stuff not bookers to book towns. Hardly a newsflash but seem to eer back to them being a Wrestling company.

 

At least in the case of the main event finish, though, there's still a different expectation for something like Seth Rollins vs Ambrose in a Hell in a Cell match compared to The Undertaker vs. Yokozuna in a casket match.

 

That's kind of nonsense given how last years show ended. People should have expected a Sports Entertainment Finish of some kind.

 

Exactly. Not every program is booked the same or every match laid out the same. There are different goals and expectations that will bring about difference reactions from the audience. This is good because otherwise the product would get awfully boring.

Genuinely not being cute but if you are talking about booking you are barking up the wrong tree. It is Creative.

[Bix]

 

 

 

I don't want to enjoy wrestling ironically. I sincerely enjoy it and would rather not have to justify bad booking and kitsch.

Then watch an actual Wrestling company. WWE has always leaned on kitsch and spectacle.

 

I've made the same arguments for a trolling end many times but WWE IS Sports Entertainment it is a different genre, it isn't booking it IS Creative for them. They hire writers to come up with creative and goofy stuff not bookers to book towns. Hardly a newsflash but seem to eer back to them being a Wrestling company.

At least in the case of the main event finish, though, there's still a different expectation for something like Seth Rollins vs Ambrose in a Hell in a Cell match compared to The Undertaker vs. Yokozuna in a casket match.

That's kind of nonsense given how last years show ended. People should have expected a Sports Entertainment Finish of some kind.

It's not that there was a fuck finish. It was that said fuck finish was built around a shoehorned in hologram.

[evilclown]

 

Your words telling people they didn't enjoy the show because they intended not to and should reevaluate themselves as wrestling fans

 

 

That's a weird way to paraphrase what I wrote above. Your anger doesn't seem appropriate. If it doesn't apply to you what's the problem? No one has singled you out. There's no need to defend your anonymous internet honor with weird attacks and accusations of wrongdoing. If you feel like you can actually find joy in WWE, that's great. Feel free to disregard.

 

If, however, you watch it every week for years at a time and find yourself perpetually angry and disappointed I'm talking to you. And lots of people here seem to be among those who will never be happy with WWE wrestling. Why not just stop? That's my message. There's no reason to subject yourself to something you don't enjoy.

[Dylan Waco]

Name names. Who are these people who will never be happy? I was probably as critical of the show as anyone in the thread - maybe more so. And I am a guy who has praised the in ring product of WWE more consistently than anyone here other than maybe Sorrow, and even then some of the things I've said (WWE over the last ten years has produced more quality wrestling than any other promotion in history by a massive margin) are things I am not sure even he would agree with.

[evilclown]

Name names. Who are these people who will never be happy?

 

Nah. There's no need. I didn't intend a grave insult and don't welcome some internet blood feud.

 

Besides, complaining about wrestling is almost part of being a hardcore wrestling fan at this point. Could you even produce a wrestling show that wouldn't lead to various degrees of outrage from the internet? I'm skeptical.

 

I'll just see myself out. Was an ill-advised post for this group. I'll make my case to a broader subsection of fans later this week. Apologies again if I offended you.

[Beast]

I was watching with one big fan and two casual fans last night and none of us enjoyed the show. The casual fans kept asking, "Didn't we already see this last month?" because so many matches just repeat from PPV to PPV.

 

There were no outstanding matches on the show compared to something like Summerslam 2013 where Cena-Bryan and Brock-Punk were both great. Cena-Orton was 26 minutes of wheel-spinning and finisher kick outs and Ambrose-Rollins lost me with that stupid, not very "crazy" bump off the cage at the beginning that was treated like someone almost died. Cesaro-Ziggler was too short, the Bella's match was a better than average women's match, Show-Rusev was a Raw match, and Sheamus-Miz was fun because of Mizdow.

 

I wouldn't even care if the consensus was "decent show with a couple good matches", but I just don't understand how anyone could be over the moon because of the match quality. That's not even taking into account the booking.

[Loss]

Besides, complaining about wrestling is almost part of being a hardcore wrestling fan at this point. Could you even produce a wrestling show that wouldn't lead to various degrees of outrage from the internet?

 

Wrestlemania 30.

[Steenalized]

 

Besides, complaining about wrestling is almost part of being a hardcore wrestling fan at this point. Could you even produce a wrestling show that wouldn't lead to various degrees of outrage from the internet?

 

Wrestlemania 30.

 

People were pretty damn pleased with Summerslam too.

[tigerpride]

 

Besides, complaining about wrestling is almost part of being a hardcore wrestling fan at this point. Could you even produce a wrestling show that wouldn't lead to various degrees of outrage from the internet?

 

Wrestlemania 30.

 

 

The streak ending?

[PeteF3]

The streak ending seemed far more upsetting to the "casuals" than the hardcores.

[tofu_chipmunk]

As I recall, there was a fair amount of grousing about how Cena/Wyatt played out at WM30.

[Jimmy Redman]

I think the last universally praised PPV was Summerslam 2013.

[C.S.]

For whatever it's worth, I thought SummerSlam 2013 sucked. EDIT: I'm exhausted and about to comment on SummerSlam 2014. Yeah, I read 2013 as 2014, even though I typed 2013. Sorry.

 

The Cena/Brock main event is the most overrated piece of shit I've seen in years. Yeah, it was novel for Cena to get his ass kicked so thoroughly - that was definitely something new - but new doesn't always equal good. I was bored for most of the match. Eighteen German suplexes, etc. - GTFO with that garbage. Yes, I understand and appreciate the story it was trying to tell, but that doesn't mean I had fun watching it.

 

Reigns/Orton was also extremely dull to me. I sympathize with what Orton had to do - and with no appreciation from anyone whatsoever - but that doesn't change the fact that they were rushing Reigns's push long before he was ready.

 

Then again, I'm the guy who defended the first Cena/Wyatt match. It wasn't a classic in the traditional sense or a "great wrestling match," but it was different, creative, and - unlike Cena/Brock - never boring.

 

I also thought Sheamus/Cesaro at the following PPV sucked. At the time, I said it damn near killed the Cesaro Swing as a big move. Considering that he hardly ever uses it anymore, I was right.

 

There was some debate and pushback, but it was all pretty friendly. People here, at least in my experience, seem to be okay with disagreements (unless it's about Molly Ringwald or Marlon Brando...then watch out! LOL.)