JerryvonKramer Posted March 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 For all his wrongs, I can't understand people saying Vince for this thread. I mean, the man is more or less directly responsible for getting me into wrestling. I wonder how many other people, if they were REALLY honest about their journey as a fan would also admit that Vince's product was the gateway drug. I doubt anyone'd lie about "How I got into wrestling". I can't think of many subjects where such a lie would have even less to gain from it. Yes, Butch, but we live in a world where people can take offense at a woman's face being posted on an internet forum. In such a world, anything is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 Wrestling would be like roller derby if Vince hadn't been successful. It would be something people talked about and remembered fondly if they grew up with it, but it would be largely forgotten and considered a relic of the past. Hell, that's a perception battle WWE has on an ongoing basis anyway, and they are alive and well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 That's a bit bold of a statement, Loss. It's next to impossible to imagine what the wrestling world would look like today if Vince's national expansion failed for whatever reason. Heck, the reason he did fail would probably have a major effect on what the business is like today (e.g., he just grew to much too fast and went bankrupt vs. a sharp decline in popularity). For all we know, Turner may still have gone national and wrestling could be bigger than it is today. A nearly infinite number of variables makes it extraordinarily difficult to determine what wrestling would be like today if Vince hadn't been successful. Obviously, wrestling is what it is today because of Vince, but I do not believe it's but for the grace of Vince that we still have wrestling beyond a little niche like roller derby today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 Wrestling would be like roller derby if Vince hadn't been successful. It would be something people talked about and remembered fondly if they grew up with it, but it would be largely forgotten and considered a relic of the past. Hell, that's a perception battle WWE has on an ongoing basis anyway, and they are alive and well. I don't know about that. Roller Derby only had a few decade history, while wrestling goes back over 100 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporadic Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 For all his wrongs, I can't understand people saying Vince for this thread. I mean, the man is more or less directly responsible for getting me into wrestling. I wonder how many other people, if they were REALLY honest about their journey as a fan would also admit that Vince's product was the gateway drug. I don't think there's anyone on this board who despises the modern product more than I do, but if there was no Vince I wonder how big this board would even be right now (or whether it would exist at all). Growing up in the South, it was Crockette who was my drug pusher not Vince. I don't take anything away from Vince being probably one of the most important figures of all time in pro wrestling history but I look at his contributions more towards TV production and packaging vice the actual in-ring product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 I envy anyone who grew up in Crockett-land in the 70s/80s. Even so, Vince is a better booker than George Scott, Dory Jr, Ole Anderson and Dusty Rhodes combined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 Not intended as a troll by the way, anyone with the vision to pull off the run from Hogan vs Andre through the evil twin refs to the Mega Powers exploding is a better booker than Dusty. Put Austin vs McMahon as another story arch, and possibly his creative masterpiece, and as a booker I don't think Vince has many rivals. Watts, Baba, and Jarrett are the only others in the conversation. Maybe Vince Sr too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 It is like all of those young adult novels where you think you were living in a utopia but really what happened is that history was erased after a great disaster. The bland, lifeless food that you are eating and that you think you love is just a pale reflection of what once existed before the mysterious fall of the territories and the man who you think is your savior is really your oppressor. Don't be a smoke-dulled sorrow, young Parv. Fight the future with the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 Not intended as a troll by the way, anyone with the vision to pull off the run from Hogan vs Andre through the evil twin refs to the Mega Powers exploding is a better booker than Dusty. Put Austin vs McMahon as another story arch, and possibly his creative masterpiece, and as a booker I don't think Vince has many rivals. Watts, Baba, and Jarrett are the only others in the conversation. Maybe Vince Sr too. i take issue with a lot of your stuff on this topic but this is reasonable i would add choshu into the mix, however. he was new japan's lead booker during that early-mid 90s period when they were (IIRC) more profitable than the WWF. i also give him a ton of bonus points for being their top regular star yet not abusing the book - he only had short IWGP reigns as booker and he put over young and old stars alike. if anything his biggest fault may have been booking too many upsets! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Heyman has been very open about the fact that he loves his current role and thinks he's having the best run of his career. He's said this on multiple podcasts. He has creative freedom and he doesn't have to stress about anything but his own stuff, and he's said repeatedly that he thinks about what he wants to say in a promo, presents it to them, and is very rarely told "you can't do/say that" and only gets minor tweaks in verbiage sometimes Also, he's also said repeatedly that if it wasn't for Brock he wouldn't have come back, and he's grateful for it, with not a hint of being dragged kicking or screaming. He seems very, very happy. And I also think he's in Brock's ear when it comes to everything, and whether or not he stays or goes Like others have said, this is a bizarre criticism on Brock and Heyman and looking for something that isn't there *sigh* I never said anything about Heyman. Just the point is that I honestly don't see what Brock pulled in getting Heyman back on board as happening in a professional organization that wasn't an entertainment venue (be it sports or otherwise). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 People who have unusual leverage due to their talent receive perks in all walks of life. Has always been thus and always thus shall be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Wrestling would still be around w/o Vince. Vince's greatest achievement is beating the boom bust cyclic trends in wrestling. By taking it national, he was no longer was stuck with hot or cold towns. Just a hot or cold national economy. This is where he beat the territories. Some were in trouble, some were not.. The only real threat was the AWA. And the only territory Vince really killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 So why aren't the other wrestling promotions still around then? I realize Vince played a dirty game in some cases that made whatever problems they had worse, but I still think all of them would have eventually crumbled because they didn't have enough foresight to navigate a changing landscape. Which territory would be alive now? Which person who ran a territory is young enough -- relatively speaking -- to be running a national wrestling company today? Or beyond that, which promoter seemed to be grooming someone to fill that spot when they retired? I guess the independents would be around, but the appeal would be quite limited on a national scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 You could make the argument that WCCW was actually getting close to being able to doing what Vince did before all their troubles with the von Erichs. But the problem with that would be that not all of the von Erichs were going to be marketable national stars. And I can't see Fritz making the call to job his boys out to whoever needed to be put over to make things work. If you look at 1992 WCW the idea of Watts going national opposite Vince is actually interesting. No top rope rule is something that makes you wonder how the whole talent bidding war would have gone with no cruiserweights. They would have essentially been bidding on the same big hosses to work different styles of wrestling programs. But nobody besides Vince was going to resort to all the dirty tricks on the rest of the promoters. They knew one another and had worked together too long. And they seemed more loyal to each other than the wrestlers. Which has also been mentioned. So maybe that's Vince's true genius. Knowing the system well enough to break it. He knew that if he could give the big name wrestlers guaranteed yearly contracts it was a win-win. And he knew that having all the big names locked up meant that nobody else was going to make any money. Or at least not enough to compete. Here's a different what-if scenario. What happens if Turner never decides to get involved in wrestling? How much sooner does Vince have the monopoly on wrestling when Turner isn't throwing money at big names and Vince can get everybody under one roof faster? Or do a few territories still have enough firepower to carry on when Vince reaches the amount of big names he can afford with the business he's doing? How long does it take for the smaller guys to get a platform for their wrestling style in the States? There's all kinds of variables that could have changed the course of wrestling in America completely. I think that Vince's consolidation was bound to happen eventually. And to go even further I think that over time whoever had become the dominant force would get complacent and be out of touch. It's bound to happen when you get to that position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 All other things the same, if Ted Turner would have never gotten into wrestling, the WWF would have had a monopoly by the end of 1988 when JCP was pretty much bankrupt. Jarrett was actually better positioned to go for a national run than anyone else because he was running two separate territories, had a pay-per-view and an ESPN time slot. And his chances weren't particularly strong either, and he's not the type that would have paid some of the NWA free agents that could have helped him enough to make it worth their while. The AWA was on fumes. I guess 1989 would have been analogous to 2001, with matches like Hogan-Flair, Savage-Flair, Demolition-Road Warriors, MX-Rockers, Sting-Warrior and Hogan-Luger not really hitting as big as one would expect on the surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Who knows? But there's still plenty of non Vince Jr wrestlling out there. Even after 30+ years. If Vince doesn't go national, wrestling would not have perished. Vince had the TV and an infrastructure no one could match. Some sold to Vince, some tried to compete. Would the territories that failed at going against Vince succeeded w/o his opposition ? The Golden Age of the wrestling had already long passed by the time Vince Jr took over, it's true. The territories had their own set of problems, also true. But I don't think the game goes under without him. Will it when he dies? Heh, I may be over shooting on the point you were trying to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 it's also worth mentioning to loss that roller derby really isn't "forgotten" these days, with my generation & younger folks anyway. it had a revival over the past decade+ or so that started out as an "ironic nostalgia" thing, but developed into a real sport that's been one of the faster-growing ones out there. it's an instructive case on why i think the whole "wrestling has to be less goofy to be cool again" idea is wrong - modern roller derby still has a lot of the silliness from its worked days (e.g. fishnets, gimmick names), and that's helped it garner more cultural buzz than say the WNBA. that hasn't hurt its standing as a serious sport, either, it's just that the players are able to be themselves a little more than in the major pro leagues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 I think the idea of the decline of wrestling in the 70s and early 80s is a bit overstated. Detroit went out of business because Sheik booked it into the ground and killed it. LA and San Francisco both went out of business because of shoddy management, not because people had gone off wrestling. Amarillo couldn't survive the death of Dory Sr ultimately. St. Louis was bought by Vince and healthy before that. AWA was healthy. Memphis was healthy. Crockett was healthy. Mid-South area was healthy, ended up going to JCP. Florida was healthy, ended up going to JCP. Texas was up and down. Business up in Canada was pretty steady. There are micro explanations for most of what happened in each area. I think the macro trend of wrestling being on the decline is a bit mythical. This is different from the "cable would have killed it" argument. I'm just saying business was pretty up in the 70s in general in most places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Business was good in a lot of places before Vince Jr made his big push. But the decline from the 50's-60's golden era was fairly apparent at the time. Certainly to the offices and areas run by people who came up during that time. But no where near death's door tho. If Vince Jr saved wrestling, then wrestling needed less people and the middle class of wrestling to be crushed to survive. Which it didn't. Any, and all problems, that may or may not have been survivable, were just exacerbated by Vince Jr's plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 it's also worth mentioning to loss that roller derby really isn't "forgotten" these days, with my generation & younger folks anyway. it had a revival over the past decade+ or so that started out as an "ironic nostalgia" thing, but developed into a real sport that's been one of the faster-growing ones out there. it's an instructive case on why i think the whole "wrestling has to be less goofy to be cool again" idea is wrong - modern roller derby still has a lot of the silliness from its worked days (e.g. fishnets, gimmick names), and that's helped it garner more cultural buzz than say the WNBA. that hasn't hurt its standing as a serious sport, either, it's just that the players are able to be themselves a little more than in the major pro leagues. The roller derby thing has been going for a while in the states, it's true. It's interesting that a generation has taken on two outwardly worked sports turned real. Roller Derby and MMA(as a proxy for pro wrestling) that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButchReedMark Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Yeah, I was indeed impressing a skating filly the other week with my knowledge of Roller Derby completely gleaned from Meltzer and an episode of King of the Hill, although she wouldn't have it that it used to be worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 "Vince killed the territories" is really one of the biggest myths in wrestling. Well, OK he probably had a direct hand in killing the AWA by raiding all their talent, but the rest were killed off by the local TV business changing from stations paying for content to demanding *to* be paid. Vince got out ahead of the curve by setting up his own syndication network so when the landscape changed he was on much better footing that anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 Vince went after just about everybody. If he could've wiped em all out at once he would've been even happier. I don't subscribe to anyone's sole responsibility. Each territory has it's story. But it is what Vince was going for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporadic Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 Vince got out ahead of the curve by setting up his own syndication network so when the landscape changed he was on much better footing that anyone else. Not just that. Vince's greatest strength (at least in my mind) has always been his vision of how to package and produce professional wrestling for broadcast. Putting together video montages and establishing lighting, audience micro phoning, pyrotechnics for entrances, custom music, etc. then marketing this material around via television rights, merchandise, video sales, etc with known mainstream celebrity star power throughout the years is where he was way ahead of the game compared to others. This is where he gets the delusion that he's in the entertainment business and continues to slam that round peg into the square hole... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 "Vince killed the territories" is really one of the biggest myths in wrestling. Well, OK he probably had a direct hand in killing the AWA by raiding all their talent, but the rest were killed off by the local TV business changing from stations paying for content to demanding *to* be paid. Vince got out ahead of the curve by setting up his own syndication network so when the landscape changed he was on much better footing that anyone else. I'm not sure this quite gels with the history. Part of the reason local TV stations started expecting to get paid to air wrestling is because Vince went to many of them offering them his programming with a weekly check to get his territorial rivals kicked off the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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