El-P Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Keiji Mutoh, the greatest laziest wrestler ever. Could be awesome. When he didn't give a fuck, he really didn't give a fuck. Kept himself relevant in the 00's. Shinjiro Ohtani. Greatest peak of a junior wrestler ever ? And he could work with the UWF-I guys like no one else. Underrated heavy career probably. My #86 and #76. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Man I really don't see any argument for Ohtani over Togo, and those are really comparable guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Man I really don't see any argument for Ohtani over Togo, and those are really comparable guys 90s NJPW has been watched by more people than Togo's post M-Pro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 I don't like Togo's 90s junior stuff nearly as much as Ohtani's. Togo's 2010/2011 run was great but what was he doing for 10 years before that? I don't see a lot of talk about Togo's 2005 DDT title matches and such. Virus seems like a much better comparison with having two great runs and Virus' second run has a lot more stuff than Togo's and has gone on for much longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterJonBurr Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Query for the peanut gallery: how much does the TNA stuff influence the rankings of Angle, AJ, Joe, Christian, et. al? Seems like a whooooole lot for most of y'all. Living in Nashville for the past decade has made, ironically enough, TNA a huge blind spot for me, as its misinterpretation of southern wrestling being in my face all the time made me actively and willfully ignore it. Perhaps this is why I'm not as hateful towards Angle & Joe and don't truly understand the Christian love. I guess this blind spot makes my rankings of lots of the TNA guys ring pretty hollow but I'm now really curious what the TNA era has done for nominees of the list. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? And kudos to The Great Muta for making the list! My all-time favorite wrestler! Don't think I had him very high but glad others still rate him. Yours, JHHBjr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKWebb Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Query for the peanut gallery: how much does the TNA stuff influence the rankings of Angle, AJ, Joe, Christian, et. al? Seems like a whooooole lot for most of y'all. Living in Nashville for the past decade has made, ironically enough, TNA a huge blind spot for me, as its misinterpretation of southern wrestling being in my face all the time made me actively and willfully ignore it. Perhaps this is why I'm not as hateful towards Angle & Joe and don't truly understand the Christian love. I guess this blind spot makes my rankings of lots of the TNA guys ring pretty hollow but I'm now really curious what the TNA era has done for nominees of the list. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? And kudos to The Great Muta for making the list! My all-time favorite wrestler! Don't think I had him very high but glad others still rate him. Yours, JHHBjr I have lived in and around Nashville for the TNA run as well. I also just hate the name TNA. But, I completely agree with you. I've completely ignored it after giving it a quick shot during the early days. It really didn't play a factor in any of my rankings. I even played a few shows with you back in my Boro days Mr. Burr. Small world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Peak vs. peak, I think Ohtani has Togo beat, but it really is close. I'm also a huge Ohtani mark, so that's what put him a few more spots above Togo in my book, but I do think Togo's had the better career overall, even if it didn't hit the highs Ohtani's did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterJonBurr Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Query for the peanut gallery: how much does the TNA stuff influence the rankings of Angle, AJ, Joe, Christian, et. al? Seems like a whooooole lot for most of y'all. Living in Nashville for the past decade has made, ironically enough, TNA a huge blind spot for me, as its misinterpretation of southern wrestling being in my face all the time made me actively and willfully ignore it. Perhaps this is why I'm not as hateful towards Angle & Joe and don't truly understand the Christian love. I guess this blind spot makes my rankings of lots of the TNA guys ring pretty hollow but I'm now really curious what the TNA era has done for nominees of the list. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? And kudos to The Great Muta for making the list! My all-time favorite wrestler! Don't think I had him very high but glad others still rate him. Yours, JHHBjr I have lived in and around Nashville for the TNA run as well. I also just hate the name TNA. But, I completely agree with you. I've completely ignored it after giving it a quick shot during the early days. It really didn't play a factor in any of my rankings. I even played a few shows with you back in my Boro days Mr. Burr. Small world. Oh, my stars and garters! What band? And, to keep this sucker on topic, did anyone who has ever worked SAW, middle Tennessee's REAL premier federation, even sniff the GWE? Besides Tracey Smothers, of course! Yours, JHHBjr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Ohtani was responsible for my all time favourite Satoshi Kojima moment. During one of the Zero-1 Fire Festivals, Ohtani ripped off Kojima's orange Breathe-Right nasal strip to draw heat, as if he was attacking a luchador's sacred mask. It worked. This alone concludes my case for Shinjiro Ohtani thank you and good day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Peak vs. peak, I think Ohtani has Togo beat, but it really is close. I'm also a huge Ohtani mark, so that's what put him a few more spots above Togo in my book, but I do think Togo's had the better career overall, even if it didn't hit the highs Ohtani's did. I'd like to see that case especially after all the casual dismissal of other people's picks you've done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 I seriously think a huge chunk of WWE's own audience has no clue how good Slaughter was in the 80's. It's a shame, he really was very very good in his heyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKWebb Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 @JHHBjr - I'll message ya. On topic, I should say some TNA I guess played a factor. I do enjoy the Turning Point Joe/AJ match from 05. But, as stated, mostly ignore and dislike so was not a major factor at all in my rankings. I do think the Christian argument stems from his comeback and last run in WWE. Just a workhorse and great at selling. His ECW run was strong. I see both sides of the coin for Angle. I had him low on my list, but I've also seen a few guys that I wish I would've replaced him with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Slaughter made way more ballots than I would have thought. He was on the bubble for me until I watched the Iron Sheik feud and then there was just no way I couldn't rank him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Didn't vote for Slaughter this time around. I think I did in 2006. Not too sure why. His greatest matches are terrific. Not much post-prime work though, but his peak is excellent. I probably should have voted for Sarge again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danish Dynamite Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Nooooooo...... It had to happen, and realistically I didn't expect Sarge to end up higher. But he's by far my highest drop yet. Had him at 26. I get the arguments about relatively short peak. Maybe. But... We've all talked about the Patterson, Backlund and Iron Sheik matches. We know Final Conflict. There was really good mid 80's AWA stuff. The Desert Storm match was really good. But there's even more. Other really good early 80's WWWF and NWA matches. And I recently saw the Jumbo & Anton Gesink vs. Bobby Duncum & Bob Remus match from the late 70's. Remus was a good worker, bumper and entertainer even then. I guess Slaughter's stock has risen over the past years, and I know it's based on the greatest hits argument. But saying he's just a greatest hits guy is selling the man short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Man I really don't see any argument for Ohtani over Togo, and those are really comparable guys I had them pretty close together. I do think Ohtani was better in the '90s. Maybe not cooler but better. He has no second act to stand up to Togo's finishing burst of greatness, but I ended up liking his heavyweight stuff a lot more than I expected. He might have been more consistent in the aughts, though some of that is an opportunity/footage issue. Pretty much a pick 'em for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victory Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Glad to see Slaughter make it after Adonis didn't. As they are two of my favorite bumpers of all time. Slaughter was such a natural bumper. It always looked so smooth and not over the top like some guys can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Ohtani's peak from 95-97 is stratospheric. Unbelievable. After that, he does some decent/good stuff in NJPW in the late 90s, then bulks up to heavyweight and doesn't really do much until he becomes the #2 guy to Hash in Zero-One. He has some good stuff with Kojima, but I think a lot of it is forgettable. The one thing he does later in his career that pops me is the Nak IWGP title match with his ode to Hash stuff, which really turns what could have been a good match into a great one. Good stuff in NOAH during that time, too although it's not all that great. Meanwhile, Togo is a top flight lucharesu worker from 94-97, then comes to WWF and gets badly glossed over (which is why people are down on him mostly) then returns and starts slimming down, changing up how he works. From there, it's a lot of moving about the Japanese Indy scene, but if you match up his 2000s with Ohtani's, Togo has more standouts, albeit not in arenas a lot of people looked towards. Here are all the links to what the Segunda Caida guys where watching. http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2010/09/complete-and-accurate-dick-togo.html?m=1 Togo gets high marks for versatility, which allows him to work damn near everyone in a believable manner. If you put his career up there start to finish in a 20 year span, I don't think you can say Ohtani was that good for that long. That being said, I do think Ohtani's peak was better, and I valued high end stuff better than good stuff over a given time period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Crackers Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 60 of my guys down so far. Not surprised I was the high vote for Ishikawa. I'm actually a little surprised Togo didn't go higher as he's got the support of both the WKO kind of guys and the Dragon's Gate Japanese juniors fans. I had him at 19. I thought those different houses might combine to give him a monster ranking but alas, twas not to be. Yuki IshikawaPirata MorganDick TogoDaisuke IkedaBlue PantherAtlantisSangre ChicanaAkira MaedaAlexander OtsukaNaoki SanoBlack TerryVirusBobby EatonFuerza GuerreraSolarGreat SasukeSuper AstroNegro NavarroSuper PorkyTamon HondaLa FieraKatsumi UsudaJerry BlackwellVillano IIIOsamu NishimuraNecro ButcherTsuyoshi KikuchiMasa FuchiToo Cold ScorpioYoshihiro TakayamaCarl GrecoYoshihiro TajiriAtsushi OnitaEmilio Charles, JrLA ParkTakeshi OnoWahoo McDanielDutch MantellYoshiaki YatsuMeiko SatomuraKoji KanemotoTrauma IIPierrothitoBrazo de OroDr. CerebroMasa SaitoHombre BalaSabuSuper DragonYoshihisa YamamotoMasashi AoyagiEspanto Jr.Mocho CotaPerro AguayoBuzz SawyerButch ReedEric EmbryTsuyoshi KohsakaCassandroRayo de Jalisco Jr. EDIT: And as soon as I post this down goes my number 20, Kiyoshi Tamura. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunning_grover Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 I had Shinjiro Ohtani at #63. I had Sgt. Slaughter at #51. He's arguably the best bumper ever. Good to see that 87 people in total voted for him. I had Giant Baba #16. 9 more days to go... 53 wrestlers that are in my top 100 have appeared in the final results so far... 47 wrestlers of my top 100 haven't appeared in the final results yet... (that means 15 of the 62 wrestlers still to come are not on my list) ... #8 Masa Fuchi [#111] (high vote: #8) #9 Sangre Chicana [#95] (high vote: #9) ... #12 Dick Togo [#71] (high vote: #12) ... #14 Chigusa Nagayo [#110] #15 Fuerza Guerrera [#155] (high vote: #15) #16 Giant Baba [#63] ... #18 Manami Toyota [#89] ... #24 Dynamite Kid [#78] ... #27 L.A. Park [#96] #28 Mr. Gannosuke [#277] (high vote: #28) ... #31 Mayumi Ozaki [#133] ... #36 Jaguar Yokota [#114] ... #41 La Fiera [#164] ... #48 El Samurai [#212] (high vote: #48) #49 Kyoko Inoue [#217] ... #51 Sgt. Slaughter [#64] ... #53 Tsuyoshi Kikuchi [#148] #54 Atlantis [#74] #55 Great Sasuke [#116] ... #57 Yumi Ikeshita [#384] ... #59 Brian Pillman [#72] #60 TAKA Michinoku [#180] ... #62 Shinobu Kandori [#146] #63 Shinjiro Ohtani [#65] #64 Steve Williams [#82] #65 Dynamite Kansai [#125] #66 Dan Kroffat [#254] ... #69 Perro Aguayo [#140] #70 Tito Santana [#80] #71 Bison Kimura [#420] #72 Devil Masami [#135] #73 Cuty Suzuki [#385] #74 Kerry Von Erich [#98] #75 Dennis Condrey [#199] #76 Pirata Morgan [#117] #77 Super Astro [#283] #78 Leo Burke [#296] #79 Jinsei Shinzaki [#400] #80 Hulk Hogan [#75] ... #82 Masato Tanaka [#175] #83 Javier Cruz [#502] (high vote/only vote: #83) ... #85 Psicosis [#183] ... #88 Marty Jannetty [#272] #89 Espectrito [#370] #90 Masa Saito [#160] #91 Sabu [#149] #92 Scott Steiner [#162] #93 Jacques Rougeau [#339] ... #95 Atsushi Onita [#89] #96 Carlos Colon [#103] #97 Roddy Piper [#83] #98 Stan Lane [#260] #99 Big Boss Man [#171] #100 Ron Starr [#403] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 I'm not familiar with her work really, but I just noticed Etsuko Mita was ranked 113 ten years ago and wasn't even nominated this time. Oversight? Stock fallen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Is Tamura the guy with the highest average vote so far? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 I can't help but feel disappointed by that Tamura placement. He's just flat better than at least 20 guys who will go above him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Accessibility is key. People have to dig pretty far beyond even the highly touted material from another country to get to Tamura. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 I disagree woth pretty much every single thing you said. I'm well aware of the Togo C+A. I don't see the standouts before his revival. My first thought was that Togo's top three 2000s matches are probably better than Ohtani's but I'm not really sure I would put the Honda and Himaru Sato matches over Ohtani's vs Murakami. While Togo certainly knew how to build a match I often find opening portions of his matches too basic to be engaging. Togo's real strength is that his top ten singles matches from 2000s easily beat Ohtani's, but again that is pretty much all 2010-2011 stuff. I've already made the case for Ohtani's versatility in his thread: " Ohtani vs rookies and undercard wrestlers rules. Ohtani as an invader rules. Ohtani defending his home turf rules. Ohtani in big brawls rules. Ohtani in faux deathmatches rules. Ohtani in inexplicably great fatal four aways I had no idea existed rules." You can add working junior epics, junior sprints and vs. UWFi guys to that as well. I don't really see that with Togo but I'll gladly listen if someone tries to convince me. What I would absolutely give credit for is getting great results out of unimpressive opponents, but that's also a point in Ohtani's favour. As of right now Togo seems like a beneficiary of the effect of latent greatness where a guy like Low Ki will do nothing for three years and then pop up in a couple of great matches and the inbetween time isn't really focused on. Togo wasn't an unknown name, so my guess is that if he was as good as he was in his last run the likes of Ditch would have been pimping him harder before it. From everything I've seen Togo absolutely was good at every point in his career but rigt now I do not buy he had a sustained run of greatness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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