WWE Extreme Rules 2018

[dkookypunk43]

My thoughts on this PPV that it sucked and thought it continues the narrative of lifeless main roster PPVs. The only match worth watching was AJ vs Rusev and I feel that the wrestlers are as much to blame for this PPV rut as the creative,  the agents, and the production. I feel that SOME of the wrestlers aren't giving a 100% effort and it shows in the shows and in the product as a whole. I feel that it's something that's gotta be questioned. Look at a guy like Finn who could have a decent match with guys who could have a great match with anyone and could elevate a guy like Baron who sucks and they could have a competent match but they didn't. It's hard for me to get invested with this company when there's so many good wrestling promotions out there and so much good stuff old and new to watch. It's just not doing it for me.

[KawadaSmile]

I thought the show was actually decent (at least the latter half certainly was good enough in terms of in-ring quality), but the crowd was horrendous for reasons I cannot fathom - other than assholes being assholes, at least.

Are Pittsburgh crowds notorious for that kind of uninterested, douchebag behavior?

[Migs]

23 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

I thought the show was actually decent (at least the latter half certainly was good enough in terms of in-ring quality), but the crowd was horrendous for reasons I cannot fathom - other than assholes being assholes, at least.

Are Pittsburgh crowds notorious for that kind of uninterested, douchebag behavior?

Pittsburgh was the location for the Cena-Orton Rumble "hijack." 

A crowd chanting doesn't make them assholes, anymore, much like people doing the wave during an intense baseball game doesn't make them assholes. Now, can you question their interest in actually enjoying the wrestling, particularly if you feel like the match is compelling? Sure. We can discuss what the match deserved, in the same way people certainly felt that Benoit-Malenko at Hog Wild "deserved" a better reaction than it got. But let's not get moralistic about crowds chanting and entertaining themselves.

[KawadaSmile]

But here's what puzzles me, Migs: Roman, a guy who people like to boo, get his usual heat. Rusev Day chants. Duelling chants for Reigns. Ok, seems par for the course for the guy and so far, not really odd.

Raw Women's match: crowd is quiet except when Ronda comes along, and then the crowd loses their shit. Weird reaction for the match itself, but ok.

WWE Championship, featuring TWO fan favorites: dead silence throughout most of the match, except for the near falls. Rusev Day chants were louder during Roman's match, which was odd. Really weak reaction considering how well-liked the wrestlers are.

Then the main event, which was not even a bad match - it was actually pretty good. The crowd pretty much gave up on cheering for Rollins (or Ziggler, for that matter) from the get-go despite getting one of their faves in the Main Event. They kept chanting for THE FUCKING CLOCK.

What else could they possibly want in order to give a shit about things? They get a good match and one of the hottest acts going on in WWE in the main spot.

 

Let's say they are tired from a 4h30min event. Ok, but don't they know it's going to be a really long event? Can't people get halfway through, once they already bought their ticket? Or leave halfway through, if they are that tired? Instead, they not only really didn't care about the match at hand, despite getting what they wanted, but paid attention to anything else but the match. 

We can argue that WWE indulged in that kind of behavior and now their performers are the ones to pay for it, but that still is no excuse.

[Loss]

I think not reacting in the intended way is one thing. Something entirely different from last night, where it was a paying wrestling crowd that felt like the only difference between them and a Sturgis audience was the lack of motorcycles.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

2 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

I thought the show was actually decent (at least the latter half certainly was good enough in terms of in-ring quality), but the crowd was horrendous for reasons I cannot fathom - other than assholes being assholes, at least.

Are Pittsburgh crowds notorious for that kind of uninterested, douchebag behavior?

Yeah, I’d say probably better than Backlash and Fastlane.  MITB was a really solid show, IMO.

[ButchReedMark]

Do wrestling fans even like wrestling anymore? WWE seems to be more for "The night out" than going to the matches. It's essentially like the darts. Where people sing "Stand up, if you love the darts" all night while not watching happening in the arena as they sing it.

 

 

[fakeplastictrees]

13 hours ago, Loss said:

If Rollins did flip out on Twitter, I'd probably think higher of him. Set aside any issues of how good or bad the match was and ask yourself how angry you'd get if you're working really hard and it's not that it doesn't click or the crowd doesn't get as involved as you would have hoped, but more that they are entertaining themselves with chants and seem to have zero actual regard for the profession they claim to be fans of. There's an implied relationship where the people who buy tickets purport to be actual fans. Reacting this way to a match with that level of effort goes beyond what people do and don't pop for and comes across as making fun of wrestlers all while they're doing stuff that could injure them or worse.

For the most part, WWE has done a really bad job at listening to its fans. Michelle McCool coming out to crickets means given her another title run. Sheamus getting lukewarm reactions after accomplishing everything there is to accomplish in WWE means give him more TV time. JJ being booed during his NWA revival angle wasn't due to him being an awesome heel and working the marks, people were bored and wanted him off TV. Albert Del Rio getting over in large part due to his entrances means its time to take it away. People sitting on their hands during Bray Wyatt matches means the matches will go longer. Booing didn't work. Silence didn't work. Apathy didn't and doesn't work. Instead of taking cues from the crowd and making changes accordingly, WWE stuck to its guns and just called a difficult crowd "Bizarro World". Cena's getting mixed reactions? No worries, he is just "controversial". The fans are not into a match that didn't ask for and made very clear they didn't want to see? Send Charles Robinson to Tweeter to admonish the fans instead of everyone in WWE corporate taking five minutes to reflect on if running Mahal vs. Reigns was even a smart move to begin with. WWE ignored the traditional sights and sounds and spun it as marks being marks. Well now the marks have a new form of expression. And still, for the most part, WWE still isn't listening.

[ButchReedMark]

PPV crowds love Rollins and Ziggler nomraly though, but were too busy entertaining themselves pretending to be Richard Whiteley's and Carol Vorderman's clock as they took each other on. There's absolutely no way you can sate a modern WWE crowd unless it's Daniel Bryan. And if someone started throwing a beach ball about they'd probably ignore his match too. Darts, I tell ya. Darts.

[SomethingSavage]

Yup. The fans didn't have any reason to give a single fuck about that match. It was set up as 30 minutes of time-killing wrestling, and they could spot that shit from a mile away.

If Seth Rollins were super over like people claim, he could have had that crowd on his side. But they have zero reason to care whether he wins or loses, because one is no different than the other.

And they have zero reason to care about Seth, because nobody in that crowd could tell you what the fuck he's supposed to stand for or be. He gets a reaction. His high spots get pops. That's not the same thing as having investment from your audience. Very few on their roster do.

And that's not me just picking on Seth either. The same applies to Dolph and to countless others. There doesn't seem to be any priority in placing guys in position to truly get over anymore.

Take Bobby Lashley for example. Different time & place, Vince would've lost his fucking mind at the idea of signing this guy and then just doing nothing with him for months on end. And there are plenty of others that fall into that category. It's just bizarre how far they've gotten away from so many of the strategies and resources that made them so richly successful in the first place.

[fakeplastictrees]

You are right in that WWE events are more about having a fun 'outing'. WWE has advertised that for years. Its not about seeing the best wrestlers in the world, its about being part of an experience. Being in the crowd when corporate history is made has been the focal point of many shows. "Creating memories" is always used in WM promo videos. WWE has been telling us for years that the most important thing going on isn't happening in the ring, its happening in the stands. People have taken that and run with it in some of the most understandably absurd ways.

[SomethingSavage]

Absolutely.

I know a group of people that made the trip to NOLA for Mania back in 2014. None of them were fans. None of them even knew Daniel Bryan. They knew the 3 icons in the opening segment. They knew Taker. And that's pretty much it. But they were there for the weekend in NOLA and the experience of being at a WrestleMania.

And that's cool. Because they dug it so much that they went back this year. And I honestly would be shocked if any of them have seen another wrestling show in between.

So yeah. There's a buzz around live wrestling right now. And that's awesome, but it's so vastly different from the last boom of the Attitude Era - a time & place where people were paying attention to the stories, investing in the characters and their conflicts, and reacting to everything happening on the stage in front of them.

These crowds now are basically just human beings at their most basic level - gathering together in large groups so they can shout shit loudly or whatever.

[Ricky Jackson]

In the old days fans stopped going to shows if they disliked the product, now they spend more money than any fans ever and bitch about how much they dislike the product. At this rate, Vince will be a trillionaire before he dies 

[Matt D]

Is NXT drawing more than the WWF did in 95? 

[Migs]

9 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

But here's what puzzles me, Migs: Roman, a guy who people like to boo, get his usual heat. Rusev Day chants. Duelling chants for Reigns. Ok, seems par for the course for the guy and so far, not really odd.

Raw Women's match: crowd is quiet except when Ronda comes along, and then the crowd loses their shit. Weird reaction for the match itself, but ok.

WWE Championship, featuring TWO fan favorites: dead silence throughout most of the match, except for the near falls. Rusev Day chants were louder during Roman's match, which was odd. Really weak reaction considering how well-liked the wrestlers are.

Then the main event, which was not even a bad match - it was actually pretty good. The crowd pretty much gave up on cheering for Rollins (or Ziggler, for that matter) from the get-go despite getting one of their faves in the Main Event. They kept chanting for THE FUCKING CLOCK.

What else could they possibly want in order to give a shit about things? They get a good match and one of the hottest acts going on in WWE in the main spot.

 

Let's say they are tired from a 4h30min event. Ok, but don't they know it's going to be a really long event? Can't people get halfway through, once they already bought their ticket? Or leave halfway through, if they are that tired? Instead, they not only really didn't care about the match at hand, despite getting what they wanted, but paid attention to anything else but the match. 

We can argue that WWE indulged in that kind of behavior and now their performers are the ones to pay for it, but that still is no excuse.

I honestly don't know. Personally, I don't really care about Rollins or Ziggler, but Rollins gets reactions, so presumably people were excited to see him wrestle. I haven't seen the match - from what was described, it sounds good enough. 

Part of it is that the booking is fairly stale and people aren't that emotionally invested in the outcome. What was the last WWE match where you felt like the finish mattered to you? Where you felt good or bad afterwards based on what happened? (I'm struggling. I guess I was happy to see Nak win the Rumble? I was cheering for Mia and Asuka to win the Mixed Match thing because I like dogs? For a bigger response, it might go back to AJ beating Cena?) Group chants are fun, and if the match doesn't really matter to you, it's pretty easy to get sucked in.

[C.S.]

31 minutes ago, Migs said:

What was the last WWE match where you felt like the finish mattered to you?

I think you hit the nail right on the head...

It didn't matter who won or lost between Rollins or Ziggler. Their match didn't matter. The title didn't matter. They didn't matter.

[KawadaSmile]

But then... if nothing matters why are the fans there at all?

[fxnj]

It may be an interesting project to create some sort of psychological profile of the type of fan who spends hours every week watching WWE just to bitch about it online. Definitely a unique case here with how, in an age of so much great wrestling available for free online, WWE has somehow managed to bamboozle a huge number of hardcore fans into paying $9.99 every month to watch a product that they hate.

[KawadaSmile]

Yikes.

[Loss]

I think criticism of wrestling that you watch is fine. Otherwise, everything about everything would be solely positive and any talk of wrestling would be pointless and boring because those who don't adore it all just wouldn't watch. So that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that these types usually present themselves as fans of WRESTLING and when they're given it, don't care. I have zero issue with impassioned negativity that comes from a place of love. I just think the positivity should be equally impassioned and loving.

[Badlittlekitten]

Have any iron man matches been significantly over?

[GSR]

10 hours ago, Matt D said:

Is NXT drawing more than the WWF did in 95? 

I'm sure some of their shows do, especially the TakeOvers, but considering how small the crowds are on the Florida loop (less than 200) I doubt the average is anywhere close.

[Kadaveri]

The Florida loop is NXT's real developmental system so not a valid comparison. The NXT Live tours usually have an attendance in the 1,000 - 2,000 range nowadays, which is very good for a 'promotion' that doesn't have TV. They were doing even better than that in 2015-16 actually, they peaked just before Bayley left and took her demographic with her.

5 hours ago, Badlittlekitten said:

Have any iron man matches been significantly over? 

They've been hit and miss but the previous three Iron Man matches in WWE (Hardyz vs. The Bar, Charlotte Flair vs. Sasha Banks, Bayley vs. Sasha Banks) all had engaged crowds throughout. Can't blame this on the stipulation.

[GSR]

14 minutes ago, Kadaveri said:

The Florida loop is NXT's real developmental system so not a valid comparison. The NXT Live tours usually have an attendance in the 1,000 - 2,000 range nowadays, which is very good for a 'promotion' that doesn't have TV. They were doing even better than that in 2015-16 actually, they peaked just before Bayley left and took her demographic with her.

When was I comparing the NXT Florida loop to how WWF was drawing in 1995?  If you're going to compare the WWF of 1995 to the NXT of today you have to take into account all the shows, which includes those Florida ones which naturally drags the average attendance down and which was the point I was making.

[Migs]

14 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

But then... if nothing matters why are the fans there at all?

You can have fun at a wrestling show without being super invested. Live wrestling is fun. I didn't have a particular investment in anything at Backlash and I had a pretty decent time. The length of the shows hurts, here, though, as an unengaged fan is probably more likely to get restless.