Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[Johnny Sorrow]

Maybe they should run some shows in smaller places in different markets. We went to the Dynamite in Broomfield, CO a few weeks before the Covid shutdown and while it wasn't sold out, the crowd was on FIRE. Denver WWE Shows over the past year have shown that we're hot for the Wrestling.

[SirEdger]

Gonna be interesting to see the first AEW show in Canada next week with the Dynamite & Rampage in Toronto on back-to-back days. I expect that crowd to be hot as well and this might indicate how soon they'd be back in Canada (presumably Montreal or Winnipeg would be next)

[NintendoLogic]

Haven't Philly crowds actually been pretty bad for a while now? Looking back, it looks like the 2015 Rumble pretty much killed the town.

[ethantyler]

2015 Rumble is the worst of all time, but I'm not sure we can say it killed the town. 2015/12/14 Raw did 12,000, 2016/3/21 Raw did 14,267, 2016/12/12 Raw did 11,700, 2017/7/23 Battleground did 12,500, 2018/1/28 Royal Rumble did 17,629, 2020/3/8 Elimination Chamber did 14,853, and 2021/9/24 Smackdown did 11,506.  

You could say that Philly simply isn't an AEW town. The trend for them specifically is very bad: 9,000 on 2019/10/16, 7,043 on 2021/10/6, 6,000 on 2022/4/27, and 5,000 this past week.

[Jmare007]

1 hour ago, SirEdger said:

Gonna be interesting to see the first AEW show in Canada next week with the Dynamite & Rampage in Toronto on back-to-back days. I expect that crowd to be hot as well and this might indicate how soon they'd be back in Canada (presumably Montreal or Winnipeg would be next)

The Rampage show not being an immediate sellout in a mid sized building kinda backs what @DMJ is saying. Given that it's not a TV show that airs in Canada, it's basically a taped house show and there wasn't enough interest even for the debut. Probably because fans have no idea what they might get and they'll wait till there's a semblance of a card and cheaper prices.

[The Thread Killer]

1 hour ago, Jmare007 said:

The Rampage show not being an immediate sellout in a mid sized building kinda backs what @DMJ is saying. Given that it's not a TV show that airs in Canada, it's basically a taped house show and there wasn't enough interest even for the debut. Probably because fans have no idea what they might get and they'll wait till there's a semblance of a card and cheaper prices.

You’re absolutely right. The idea of holding a TV taping for a show that doesn’t even air on Television in the market where you’re taping the show is just…a WCW level strategy.

Not to mention (although the tickets have come down in price - dramatically in some cases) the ticket prices are absolutely insane. I was going to Dynamite come hell or high water…until I saw those ticket prices. $300 for a single ticket. They’ve come down to $150 or so now, but still way too high.

That’s not on AEW, that’s on the Secondary Ticket Sellers but still. After all the smoke has cleared I would not be surprised to end up seeing empty seats at Dynamite after all, and especially at Rampage for sure.

 

[sek69]

AEW is way too conservative at times when it comes to where they run shows, Fans on the west coast were begging for them to come forever before they finally did, and even then they went to buildings way smaller than they could have filled the first time out. 

[strobogo]

The gloom and doom seems a little premature. There were like 3 years straight of WWE running literally half empty arenas more often than not for TV and they still got billions in TV rights and more money than ever. Provided their ratings stay stable, it's clear WBD are very happy with EW. I don't think there is a chance of a WCW getting booted off Turner networks situation here. 

If I'm not mistaken, I believe start of Autumn has traditionally been a down period for ticket sales in all territories throughout the past 50 some years. I do think AEW absolutely has been overrunning the same markets. I have no idea how they still sell any tickets in Chicago. Feels like probably 25% of all AEW shows have been from Chicagoland area.

In terms of running the same markets, WCW also did this quite frequently in 1995-1998 as well. Despite being a national promotion and as hot as can be, they still ran the same 5-10 Southeast cities multiple times a year. It works until it doesn't, I suppose. I think an issue is AEW had been running smaller venues that WWE never hit for TV in the first year or so, and it seems like they've been running larger venues that WWE also runs and are suffering a bit as a result. 

[Embrodak]

8 hours ago, strobogo said:

The gloom and doom seems a little premature. There were like 3 years straight of WWE running literally half empty arenas more often than not for TV and they still got billions in TV rights and more money than ever. Provided their ratings stay stable, it's clear WBD are very happy with EW. I don't think there is a chance of a WCW getting booted off Turner networks situation here. 

If I'm not mistaken, I believe start of Autumn has traditionally been a down period for ticket sales in all territories throughout the past 50 some years. I do think AEW absolutely has been overrunning the same markets. I have no idea how they still sell any tickets in Chicago. Feels like probably 25% of all AEW shows have been from Chicagoland area.

In terms of running the same markets, WCW also did this quite frequently in 1995-1998 as well. Despite being a national promotion and as hot as can be, they still ran the same 5-10 Southeast cities multiple times a year. It works until it doesn't, I suppose. I think an issue is AEW had been running smaller venues that WWE never hit for TV in the first year or so, and it seems like they've been running larger venues that WWE also runs and are suffering a bit as a result. 

I don't think they're at risk of getting booted off television, but I think they're at risk of not being able to do the kind of ticket sales that allow them to keep running big buildings with big crowds that create hype around the product and buoy those ratings. Some of that you can smoke and mirrors, but AEW is also a little sketch in the production department sometimes. Grand Slam had a smaller crowd this year, but it also wasn't shot in a way that covered that up. And we all saw how they somehow cut from Jericho gigging himself to an even more obvious angle of same. I don't think we're looking at a full-blown WCW situation here, but there do seem to be some real obstacles without apparent institutional capacity to traverse them.

[SirEdger]

16 hours ago, Jmare007 said:

The Rampage show not being an immediate sellout in a mid sized building kinda backs what @DMJ is saying. Given that it's not a TV show that airs in Canada, it's basically a taped house show and there wasn't enough interest even for the debut. Probably because fans have no idea what they might get and they'll wait till there's a semblance of a card and cheaper prices.

When the Rampage debut was announced in Canada, TSN (which airs Dynamite on TSN2 every Wednesday) said that they would air selected Rampage on TV; yet, the only one they did so far was Punk's AEW debut last year. And they also aired only one Battle of the Belts on TV (the most recent one and it aired on tape delay at like 1 AM in the morning). I would think they could make an exception for Rampage next week and air it since it's gonna be from Toronto but I wouldn't be surprised if it still only is shown on the TSN website.

[Migs]

47 minutes ago, Embrodak said:

I don't think they're at risk of getting booted off television, but I think they're at risk of not being able to do the kind of ticket sales that allow them to keep running big buildings with big crowds that create hype around the product and buoy those ratings. Some of that you can smoke and mirrors, but AEW is also a little sketch in the production department sometimes. Grand Slam had a smaller crowd this year, but it also wasn't shot in a way that covered that up. And we all saw how they somehow cut from Jericho gigging himself to an even more obvious angle of same. I don't think we're looking at a full-blown WCW situation here, but there do seem to be some real obstacles without apparent institutional capacity to traverse them.

One of the big advantages AEW has had is that their pre-launch on a national stage (All In) was in an arena. It set them up for success by looking big league early on (I have since often wondered what ECW would have looked like if they ran Barely Legal in a bigger place, but that's a whole separate conversation). I agree this will be a big point for them - they need to draw enough to arenas to keep making arenas look reasonable. Last thing they want is the TNA touring problem (not that they're close to that at the moment).

[strobogo]

Man how fucked up did Adam Cole get, haven't even heard rumblings of a projected return date for him

[Timbo Slice]

I think it was more than just his concussion, but his shoulder, too. 

[KawadaSmile]

Yeah, he reportedly had a torn labrum. And still was wrestling. His whole body was held together by wishes and bubblegum.

[Matt D]

Philly crowd didn't even pop for Dalton Castle's entrance. Maybe they shouldn't go back there for a bit.

[sek69]

Tony in the mood for some BEEF and booked Wardlow vs Brian Cage for Dynamite. 

[KawadaSmile]

 

This interview kinda fucking rules

[Jesse Ewiak]

15 hours ago, strobogo said:

The gloom and doom seems a little premature. There were like 3 years straight of WWE running literally half empty arenas more often than not for TV and they still got billions in TV rights and more money than ever. Provided their ratings stay stable, it's clear WBD are very happy with EW. I don't think there is a chance of a WCW getting booted off Turner networks situation here. 

If I'm not mistaken, I believe start of Autumn has traditionally been a down period for ticket sales in all territories throughout the past 50 some years. I do think AEW absolutely has been overrunning the same markets. I have no idea how they still sell any tickets in Chicago. Feels like probably 25% of all AEW shows have been from Chicagoland area.

In terms of running the same markets, WCW also did this quite frequently in 1995-1998 as well. Despite being a national promotion and as hot as can be, they still ran the same 5-10 Southeast cities multiple times a year. It works until it doesn't, I suppose. I think an issue is AEW had been running smaller venues that WWE never hit for TV in the first year or so, and it seems like they've been running larger venues that WWE also runs and are suffering a bit as a result. 

1.) WWE got billions because there was competition for their product, because they're still outrunning the bear of falling TV ratings. OTOH, there's been exactly zero talk of any competitive bidding form other companies, even form more pro-AEW sources, which at the point, why should WB Discover, especially under new ownership, offer them more money? 

I'm not saying AEW will get kicked off TNT, but the question is, will they get an appreciably bigger deal than they're currently getting, when there's no reason too? The problem for AEW long-term isn't getting kicked off TV, but being seen the same way TNA became seen as to non-wrestling people who buy advertising - the show where all the people who washed out of the Major Leagues (ie. the WWE) end up, as opposed to actual opposition. 

2.) I mean, Survivor Series basically sold out and Rumble just sold 20,000 tickets on the first day, along w/ numerous great attendances for RAW and Smackdown, which all started before Vince left. Yeah, part of the reason is they're hitting the same four places over-and-over (hyperbole, folks), but also, while say, Seattle is doing well (5,000 out of 7,000 as of a week or two ago), it's not the super hot seller you'd expect from AEW's first trip to Danielson's home area. 

I'm not claiming "AEW IS DOOMED" but I do think it's clear that at the initial hot period of "Fuck WWE" energy has dissapated and a combination of questionable booking decisions and plain ole' logistical issues have hurt the company - I think somebody upthread had a great point that if you got to a RAW or Smackdown, everybody who is important on that roster is going to be a part of that show, even if it's not a match, while seemingly with Dynamite, it's a crap-shoot among the top people whose going to be on TV - like, we can bash Vince all we want, but if you told somebody a few years ago that Andrade would only have the silly low amount of show on the main TV show he's on, everybody would be guessing that's a Vince booking decision. 

I also think the whole rankings thing made Tony afraid of actually booking anybody at the top of the card to lose (outside of Danielson, who I wouldn't be shocked at this point if he's be OK to jobbing too Brodie's kid), because the fanbase also has been made to despise any kind of non-clean finish. 

[strobogo]

2 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

 

This interview kinda fucking rules

Lmao at the idea of Sammy CRYING because someone was too stiff with him in the ring. Eddie should have tagged him up afterall. 

[sek69]

I would take that interview with a sizeable grain of salt,  since the issues he had weren't from not saying hi to folks but rubbing pretty much everyone he comes in contact with the wrong way.

Basically Andrade comes off as someone with Main Character Syndrome, and is blissfully unaware of how he comes off to others. 

In related news, it also seems like he's done with AAA as well, so there's another promotion who didn't want to deal with his bullshit. 

 

[sek69]

It sure seems in retrospect AEW's biggest misstep has been grabbing any and everyone they could without considering the effect it would have on the locker room. It's great having a bunch of great workers, but then you have to deal with the equally sized egos that go along with that. 

[Alucard]

May or may not be related..

 

[El-P]

Such a wonderful atmosphere in the locker room. Coach TK should grant Andrade his release so him and Charlotte can piss off everybody over there too.

3 hours ago, sek69 said:

It sure seems in retrospect AEW's biggest misstep has been grabbing any and everyone they could without considering the effect it would have on the locker room. 

Yep. Some have clearly not been the best addition to the team in the long run.

[Blehschmidt]

If Sammy is smiling after his match with Walter in PWG, I doubt he was crying from a match with Andrade.

 

[Matt D]

Now I want to see Rush vs Kingston.