Comments that don't warrant a thread 2010-2011

[El-P]

So, might the careers of Scorpio and Snow, and the U.S. careers of Furnas and Kroffat, had a better outcome had they jumped to WCW instead of the WWF when they did? They all likely would have ended up in the Benoit/Malenko/Guerrero/Jericho/Rey group, and even when things in WCW fell apart been in a better position to come into WWE with a good spot.

Scorpio would have kicked major ass in WCW with Benoit/Guerrero/Jericho/Rey. I put Malenko apart because to me he was way inferior as a worker. Al Snow falls in that category also, and without a strong gimmick, I don't feel he would have made a huge difference in WCW. But probably much better than he made in WWF, which wasn't difficult.

Furnas/Kroffat in WCW would have been awesome working with the Steiners and throwing bombs at each others. They would have been awesome working with Benoit/Malenko. WWF killed those guys. Kroffat was past its prime, but he was still a terrific worker, and Furnas was a bomb thrower that could toss around people like nobody's business. I don't think it's fair to judge Furnas/Kroffat from the few matches they had in ECW, they had to work with the freaking Eliminators and the pair of Sabu/RVD which was always difficult. Their work in WWF against Owen/Bulldog was excellent for the few months they were given some time and attention.

My biggest regret during those years is that Kroffat/Furnas/Scorpio didn't jump in WCW between 96/99. They were totally wasted in WWF.

As far as getting a better position in WWF, Scorpio yes if he had the "Radical" status after years of working WCW with the pack. Kroffat/Furnas, don't think so, they just would never fit, kinda like Steiner.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not judging the Can Ams based entirely off the Sabu/RVD and Eliminators matches. They had other matches where they didn't look all that good either. They had good matches with Spike and Mikey for example, but the matches were all Spike and Mikey with Furnas and Kroffat looking like the obviously weaker team. As I said before Furnas in particular looked off for most of his ECW run no matter who he was working. The exception was the Arena match with RVD and a long singles with Scorp.

[jdw]

So, might the careers of Scorpio and Snow, and the U.S. careers of Furnas and Kroffat, had a better outcome had they jumped to WCW instead of the WWF when they did? They all likely would have ended up in the Benoit/Malenko/Guerrero/Jericho/Rey group, and even when things in WCW fell apart been in a better position to come into WWE with a good spot.

 

The Can Ams really didn't have it in the U.S. which I think is evident if you watch the ECW footage I have. Strangely I think Kroffat had a better sense of how to work a crowd, but he also had a less engaging look and I'm sure he would have been seen as a Malenko clone in look which is hardly something WCW or anyone else would have seen as a plus. Furnas probably could have been effective as someone's bodyguard but other than that he didn't have the presence or mic skills to survive during the MNW era.

Their ECW run was impacted by them:

 

* being physically a mess by that point

 

* them just viewing ECW as a "pass though" to cash in on a contract with either WCW or ECW

 

Even if healthy and in their prime, they probably would have hit WCW or WWF in that era at the wrong time: one without managers getting paired often enough with solid tag teams that couldn't really talk. They would have fit better into the Midnight Express era of 1984-90, though even by the tail end of that there was a movement away from managers begining in the WWF and WCW.

 

John

[Log]

Wasn't Scorpio kinda technically a WCW guy? That's the first place he really got highlighted. He was pushed pretty decently in the early 90's.

[El-P]

I'm not judging the Can Ams based entirely off the Sabu/RVD and Eliminators matches. They had other matches where they didn't look all that good either. They had good matches with Spike and Mikey for example, but the matches were all Spike and Mikey with Furnas and Kroffat looking like the obviously weaker team. As I said before Furnas in particular looked off for most of his ECW run no matter who he was working. The exception was the Arena match with RVD and a long singles with Scorp.

You know my opinion of Spike Dudley. Furnas was not a good single worker anyway, I thought the RVD match was widely overrated. I don't remember much about the Scorp one. And the Tanaka match was godawful because Furnas had no idea how to work with Tanaka, and Tanaka was supposed to work Kanemura which he had workes a hundred times already, so it's not like he was ready for a guy like Furnas.

I maintain they would have been perfectly fine in WCW. Would they have receive a big push ? No. But they would have delivered in the ring because WCW allowed their workers to work. And their roster was infinitely deeper and better than ECW's. It would have been some good random fun.

[El-P]

Wasn't Scorpio kinda technically a WCW guy? That's the first place he really got highlighted. He was pushed pretty decently in the early 90's.

In my mind Scorpio really is an ECW guy like Shane Douglas, that's where he shined the most. He went places and was featured before coming to ECW, but he peaked over there.

[Jingus]

Hey, that brings up a point: what's the current consensus on Shane Douglas's ECW run? (Aside from that Hollywood Hogan-esque period where he was injured for like a year straight and hardly ever defended the belt, anyway.) A few years back, people had thoroughly soured on the Franchise, and it was hard to find anyone who admitted to liking him. I've seen countless people complaining loudly that they hated the belly-to-belly suplex as a finish, which always struck me as an odd thing to get hung up on, it's no worse than any other random move. He's been out of sight for a while now, so I wonder if it's time yet for a reevaluation of his work.

[El-P]

I always liked Shane Douglas, and quite frankly, rewatching his entire ECW stint, my opinion of him only went up. From 94 to 96 (in ECW, as his work in WWF was just subpar, for various reasons), he was one of the best workers in the US. And even after his prime, he was really solid. He had an excellent match with Justin Credible in 1999 just before he left for WCW.

I don't think the concensus thinks very highly of him, but to hell with the concensus. Also, 1996 Douglas smokes 1996 Michaels in my eyes.

[Al]

Hey, that brings up a point: what's the current consensus on Shane Douglas's ECW run? (Aside from that Hollywood Hogan-esque period where he was injured for like a year straight and hardly ever defended the belt, anyway.) A few years back, people had thoroughly soured on the Franchise, and it was hard to find anyone who admitted to liking him. I've seen countless people complaining loudly that they hated the belly-to-belly suplex as a finish, which always struck me as an odd thing to get hung up on, it's no worse than any other random move. He's been out of sight for a while now, so I wonder if it's time yet for a reevaluation of his work.

Personally, I would've been annoyed that it was often four foreign object spots followed by that suplex as a finish. Any wrestling move felt like a lame finish after say, a DDT into a guardrail.

[Victator]

That's how you keep the finisher over. Never understood how the belly to belly was less credible than the Rock Bottom.

 

I think Scorp burned his bridges with WCW. It was strange ECW never brought him back long term after the WWF fired him. Watching some AJPW and I can see why Furnas and Kroffat did not make it in the WWF. They are great doing moves and brawling but they were clueless working holds. It was like they were looking at a watch thinking "when I can I start doing moves again?" That mentality is death for a lower card WWF team in that period. They would of did well in WCW and made more money. Doing TV matches with the Steiners and the Faces of Fear and working sprint type matches.

 

Al Snow said WCW never called him back in 95.

[El-P]

Watching some AJPW and I can see why Furnas and Kroffat did not make it in the WWF. They are great doing moves and brawling but they were clueless working holds. It was like they were looking at a watch thinking "when I can I start doing moves again?" That mentality is death for a lower card WWF team in that period. They would of did well in WCW and made more money.

Who was "working holds" in WWF in the 90's ? Except for Bret and the combination figure-four sharpshooter, what was the great holds work in the WWE during that time ? Working holds in WWF was basically : chinlock to rest a few minutes. Kroffat could work holds as well as Malenko, except he was actually an excellent dickhead heel, but their style was indeed more suited to the all action go-go-go workrate style of Japan. The problem in WWF is that no one could work with them, with the exception of Owen, Bulldog, and probably Scorpio and Snow to an extent. Hearing the Godwinns say that working them was like "pulling teeth" is hilarious. Who was pulling teeth to get something watchable out of the others really ?

Another problem is that WWF introduced tham as faces, and Kroffat has zero face charisma and can't do face-in-peril. He's either a simple great wrestling machine, or works like a dick workrate heel. But having him as a face was a big mistake. And Furnas is just a power guy with no distinguishable charisma, so again, while the audience would easily pop for his big spots, he's not gonna play face-in-peril.

 

Snow wasn't linked to New Japan, and quite frankly I think the NJ link was as important as the ECW one to get Malenko/Benoit/Guerrero to WCW. Konnan was a big new star in Mexico, Rey, Juvy and Psic the talk of the day over there, with tours in Japan. Snow was just another indy guy who'd been around for ever without accomplishing anything.

[Victator]

They could not handle doing a basic chinlock for a minute or two. If you can't handle doing a chinlock you're not going to last long in the WWF of that time. If they had shown up in 98 or 99 they would of had a better chance just with how they were doing TV matches then. But it would of been a gamble with Russo having some power.

[El-P]

They could not handle doing a basic chinlock for a minute or two. If you can't handle doing a chinlock you're not going to last long in the WWF of that time.

If that's what you meant, then ok. But that's not being "clueless at working holds", that's "not being lazy during 8 minutes TV matches".

 

If they had shown up in 98 or 99 they would of had a better chance just with how they were doing TV matches then. But it would of been a gamble with Russo having some power.

They would have not been given a chance at all during that time. Wrestling didn't matter, it was all about catchphrases and stupid soap operas. At least in 1997 they got those two or three matches with Bulldog and Owen.

[anarchistxx]

I think Kroffat/Furnas might have had some decent matches in WCW, but they certainly wouldn't have gone anywhere; it wasn't exactly a company with an incredible tag division. I'm not even convinced match wise they'd have done any better, aside from maybe a couple of reasonable pairings they could have faced like Booker/Stevie (who even still are a lot below Davey/Owen who they had some great tag matches with). Were they even that great of workers? Keeping in mind that in AJPW they were facing some of the greatest of all time. They clearly weren't totally carried, but they never repeated those performances on a wider scale.

 

As for Scorpio and Snow, these two have exactly the right place in wrestling history for me. I think they were both vastly overrated as workers on the internet a few years ago. Scorpio especially, as although he can go in the ring, I find him to have a real lack of natural charisma and he doesn't have a great look either. Snow suffers from exactly the same problems, except he has slightly more charisma but slightly less ring talent.

 

That's how you keep the finisher over. Never understood how the belly to belly was less credible than the Rock Bottom.

I think the main difference, as mentioned, is Douglas would do a ton of deadly looking shit then finish them off with this poor looking basic wrestling move. Rock's matches were usually more minimal in terms of stuff he did, so his finisher was able to get over as a deadly end to a match. There's also the big difference of context; ECW is a more gritty/ realistic, violent style of wrestling where such a tame finish comes across as underwhelming. WWE, on the other hand, is more cartoon, more polished and generally where they condition their audience to believe a certain thing and the audience dumbly goes along with it (hence Undertaker using a legdrop as a low-level move on the same card where Hogan is finishing top guys off with it).

[khawk20]

Oh, and he was talking about his time in Portland and mentioned how Rose had all the tapes but he sold them to some guy on the Internet. Wasn't that Bix or Goodhelmet?

Hoops Johnson is that guy's internet handle. He's been selling Rose tapes for years, and just got in a ton more after(?) Buddy passed.

[El-P]

As for Scorpio and Snow, these two have exactly the right place in wrestling history for me. I think they were both vastly overrated as workers on the internet a few years ago. Scorpio especially, as although he can go in the ring, I find him to have a real lack of natural charisma and he doesn't have a great look either. Snow suffers from exactly the same problems, except he has slightly more charisma but slightly less ring talent.

Scorpio, lack of charisma ? Scorpio had shitload of face charisma if he wanted to work purely as a fiery high flyer, and was even better as a dipshit arrogant heel. In ECW he showed tons of charisma.

Snow went from being very underrated to be very overrated, in every aspect.

[Phil Schneider]

Anarchistxx thinks blacks are subhuman, so he might have just been watching Scorpio and just wishing for a noose and a tree.

[Kronos]

I am afraid I just don't get lucha trios matches yet. Last night, I was watching that first CMLL Puebla 6-man on Schneider 26 (for the second time). I have to say that Toro Bill is a bumping fool -- that's a fat old man who's not afraid to go flying, and I kind of love him. But I do feel like these matches have a tendency to devolve into chaos, with all 6 men in the ring at once, or else an extended 3-on-1 segment.

 

Am I just not used to it? Maybe it's like hockey, where you just have to develop a feel for how it comes together. . .

[Victator]

They would have not been given a chance at all during that time. Wrestling didn't matter,

If you could do cool looking power shit they would find a place for you. Not like the Acolytes and Hardyz had catch phrases.

[anarchistxx]

Anarchistxx thinks blacks are subhuman, so he might have just been watching Scorpio and just wishing for a noose and a tree.

Yawn. Six years on and you still have nothing better to do than try and incite reactions about offhand comments that have long faded into the past for anyone else. You really are a tragic little man.

 

Scorpio, lack of charisma ? Scorpio had shitload of face charisma if he wanted to work purely as a fiery high flyer, and was even better as a dipshit arrogant heel. In ECW he showed tons of charisma.

Guess it's a personal thing, he never had me rooting for him like I would the other faces of the period. He didn't seem interesting enough, which is possibly the lack of a well formed character. Even guys like Benoit and Malenko who are accused for lacking charisma seemed to have identities. It may just be that I haven't seen enough ECW, I don't think I've seen more than 10-15 matches from him in that promotion, although its all been the heavily pimped stuff.

 

If you could do cool looking power shit they would find a place for you. Not like the Acolytes and Hardyz had catch phrases.

The Acolytes had more of a character, identity and purpose, though, and the Hardyz looked good and were at least vaguely contemporary.

[Bix]

Dude, it's not like you found Jesus in prison, you just say you've moveD on from thinking black people are subhuman and demoing the Holocaust to...not doing that and tell people to drop it when you have a habit of saying strangely negative things about black wrestlers and never explain how you got over your virulent racism.

[anarchistxx]

Which black wrestlers have I said 'strangely negative things' about except Scorpio? And my 'virulent racism' amounted to no more than three or four posts as a young teenager that were subsequently blown up out of proportion by a few IWC stalwarts, mostly from DVDVR; people like yourself who I seem to remember at one stage accusing numerous people of only not liking Mark Henry because he was a 'fat, sweaty black man' or something equally as poetic, which questions whether it's possible in your psyche to dislike a coloured wrestler without demonstrating racist undertones. As for 'not explaining how you got over it' - what do you want, a ten page thesis on how I was converted on wrestling sites I visit maybe twice a year? Opinions slowly morph over time, and usually its unexplainable. It isn't like I suddenly read 'To Kill A Mockingbird' and had an epiphany. I simply grew up.

 

The darker implications of that particular episode was that four or five people, most notably you and the blessed Phil Schneider, men in their mid-late twenties with websites and seemingly busy lives, spent a month chasing a fifteen year old boy around the internet so they could castigate him for a few ignorant political statements he made. It says a lot about the state of your respective lives. What was most bizarre was the several others on Smarkschoice at the time making equally offensive statements; it was only the young teenager you pursued. Without wanting to sound like Resident Evil, that possibly indicates a desire to put down the easiest, youngest target (a form of bullying) - probably as an attempt to counteract the torment endured in your own lives and youths when you yourselves were the victims of abuse.

 

I'm simply curious as to why nobody has mentioned it after 2005 except you, Schneider and the other dude that runs DVDVR whose name escapes me. Why are you so obsessed? Why do you care so much? Why does no other person care enough to ever bring it up?

[El-P]

Anarchistxx thinks blacks are subhuman, so he might have just been watching Scorpio and just wishing for a noose and a tree.

Ok. I probably missed an episode somewhere sometime.

 

But anyway, saying Scorpio had no identity or charisma compared to guys like Benoit or Malenko just doesn't make any sense. Scorpio had a natural charisma, he was flashy, could turn it into self-absorbed arrogance. Malenko or Benoit never had anything beside their great mechanicals (and intensity as far as Benoit goes), and Malenko was just an average worker anyway. Scorp was easily has charismatic as Eddie, even moreso because face Eddie coming off New Japan wasn't exactly the most exciting thing ever during his first few months in WCW.

[El-P]

They would have not been given a chance at all during that time. Wrestling didn't matter,

If you could do cool looking power shit they would find a place for you. Not like the Acolytes and Hardyz had catch phrases.

 

Hardys were young dudes coming off from ladders. Acolytes were already veterans in WWF at this point, Ron Simmons had been a fixture in US wrestling for more than a decade, and Bradshaw was an office ass-kisser. Two past their prime guys from All Japan wouldn't have cut it. Look what they did to Vader in 1998.

[Phil Schneider]

Anarchistxx thinks blacks are subhuman, so he might have just been watching Scorpio and just wishing for a noose and a tree.

Yawn. Six years on and you still have nothing better to do than try and incite reactions about offhand comments that have long faded into the past for anyone else. You really are a tragic little man.

 

I am always amused at the "nothing better to do" criticism, it took me about a minute to make the comment. I can spend the rest of my day doing other things. I read this board, I saw you posted, I thought to my self before opening the post "I bet he is taking a shot at a black wrestler." Voila, that is what you were doing, El-P was responding to you like a reasonable person, figured I should save him some time by pointing out that you aren't. I enjoy taking shots at you because you are a vile shit, so I did it. It isn't an obsession, not something I spend a ton of time doing, I am at work, have five minutes to kill, don't go to DC punk shows anymore, so this is my only chance to kick a Nazi.

 

 

Scorpio, lack of charisma ? Scorpio had shitload of face charisma if he wanted to work purely as a fiery high flyer, and was even better as a dipshit arrogant heel. In ECW he showed tons of charisma.

 

Guess it's a personal thing, he never had me rooting for him like I would the other faces of the period. He didn't seem interesting enough, which is possibly the lack of a well formed character. Even guys like Benoit and Malenko who are accused for lacking charisma seemed to have identities. It may just be that I haven't seen enough ECW, I don't think I've seen more than 10-15 matches from him in that promotion, although its all been the heavily pimped stuff.

You never thought the reason you didn't root for him is that you considered him a loathsome ape leeching off the work of hard working white people? You claim to have some sort of awakening, but certainly you were still deeply in your Stormfront days when you were watching ECW.