subatomic_elbow Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 That reminds me of Kevin Cook's famous post about HBK and HHH's history as the longest lasting gay couple in wrestling history. I read a pretty good case for Evolution also representing the phases in HHHs life as a modern gay man. I'm starting to wonder if it was the same post, and they were his other lovers along the way. Gay read aside, that's not a bad way to set up Miz v Riley. No matter how they do it, I'm pretty sure I'll be viewing it as a gay lover's quarrel now. Honestly, I cannot read the Miz/Riley relationship any other way. Was the Miz/Morrisson tandem any straighter? Two dudes dishing on gossip, one of whom is a cuckold who wears a fur coat and the other who wears capri pants and overcompensates with misogyny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 That reminds me of Kevin Cook's famous post about HBK and HHH's history as the longest lasting gay couple in wrestling history. I read a pretty good case for Evolution also representing the phases in HHHs life as a modern gay man. I'm starting to wonder if it was the same post, and they were his other lovers along the way. Gay read aside, that's not a bad way to set up Miz v Riley. No matter how they do it, I'm pretty sure I'll be viewing it as a gay lover's quarrel now. Honestly, I cannot read the Miz/Riley relationship any other way. Was the Miz/Morrisson tandem any straighter? Two dudes dishing on gossip, one of whom is a cuckold who wears a fur coat and the other who wears capri pants and overcompensates with misogyny? Eh, Miz/ Morrison was more "two smart ass punks making fun of everyone and not showing any respect to anyone except Mr. Fuji." I loved the fact that they were essentially two guys who got thrown together and got over on their own. I hated it when they had them essentially get killed by DX the first time they fought. I normally like it when an older team shows the young punks who's in charge but that time it really came off as that whole "being punished for getting over" deal. I remember they eventually beat DX, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 I read a pretty good case for Evolution also representing the phases in HHHs life as a modern gay man. I'm starting to wonder if it was the same post, and they were his other lovers along the way. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t=0&start=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 Occurred to me randomly the other day: why did fans start cheering for The Undertaker in 91? I mean he was essentially evil, especially when he was allied with Jake Roberts. Anyone got any insights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 Occurred to me randomly the other day: why did fans start cheering for The Undertaker in 91? I mean he was essentially evil, especially when he was allied with Jake Roberts. Anyone got any insights? He was invincible and won all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted May 14, 2011 Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 Occurred to me randomly the other day: why did fans start cheering for The Undertaker in 91? I mean he was essentially evil, especially when he was allied with Jake Roberts. Anyone got any insights? I think it was kind of a Darth Vader thing. People always get into bad guys that are cool-looking and bad-ass. No one talks about how awesome Luke Skywalker was. It's Vader all the way with people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted May 14, 2011 Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 I've had this debate one time before with my brother; when was he more scary, when he first started or in '98-'99 when his gimmick took a Satanic slant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted May 14, 2011 Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 Dana White gets quite a bit of pub for wanting all of his fighters to tweet and wants to give them bonuses for tweets and followers so you knew something bad was going to happen quick. This just hit Twitter 30 minutes ago @josealdojunior "Nigga-palooza in vegas!! The party of fredson Paixao" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 14, 2011 Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 I've had this debate one time before with my brother; when was he more scary, when he first started or in '98-'99 when his gimmick took a Satanic slant? To me, his debut. He was freaking creepy. The Satanic gimmick was just over the top Russo bullshit. I remember the satanic skit with the Mideon sacrifice was one of the clear moments that just made me to want to turn away from WWF, it was just stupid. Of course "That was me all along" rendered things even worse, and Satanic Taker being allied with the evil corporate boss made him look like just another bad gimmick. God, I hated 1999 so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted May 14, 2011 Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 I hated it when they had them essentially get killed by DX the first time they fought. That did not happen. They got a ton of offense on DX and got a visual pin on Shawn. That was as close as anyone was getting to beating DX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted May 14, 2011 Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 What's funny about the DX vs. Miz/Morrison match now is how they're clearly selling Morrison as the breakout of the team. But, yeah, all considered by WWE standards, they did make Mix/Morrison look good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 I don't recall Undertaker getting cheered by fans until AFTER he turned. Point me to what I need to see that demonstrates otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 14, 2011 Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 Loss, I think there are rumblings of it as early as Survivor Series vs. Hogan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted May 15, 2011 Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 I hated it when they had them essentially get killed by DX the first time they fought. That did not happen. They got a ton of offense on DX and got a visual pin on Shawn. That was as close as anyone was getting to beating DX. I thought they had two matches, the one you describe and another one that was a squash of sorts. Am I imagining that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted May 15, 2011 Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 I only remember the one, but there might of been another. During the same period DX had two matches with the Hart Dynasty and really put them over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 15, 2011 Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 Comcast finally added a hispanic tier in my area so I can watch all the lucha I can stand. It was interesting when I watched AAA for the first time in a couple of years and having two things stand out: 1. The ring babes hold banners with the AAA logo and Pena's face on them. I can only imagine WWE will do the same when Vince dies. 2. Dr. Wagner Jr's promos sound like what Road Warrior Hawk would sound like if he spoke Spanish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted May 15, 2011 Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 I got to sit and talk wrestling with Rip Rogers yesterday. Really interesting Guy with a near-photographic memory of the places he's worked. I come from a tiny town in Southern Illinois and he told me the date and main event for a card he worked at my high school in 1983 for Poffo's promotion. I was shooting a news storybook at OVW's training school. Everyone in that promotion was great to work with, and they've been putting on some really fun shows lately. I'll post the story here when I'm done with it. Oh, and he was talking about his time in Portland and mentioned how Rose had all the tapes but he sold them to some guy on the Internet. Wasn't that Bix or Goodhelmet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Having watched CMLL's weekly show I have more random lucha observations: * I read at one point AAA was trying to upgrade their production values to be more like WWE. Right now they come across like 90s WCW when they were taping at Disney. I wasn't expecting them to be matching WWE's production values but right now AAA looks like what an indy with a wealthy money mark would put on TV here. * CMLL on the other hand comes across like early 80s pre Hulkamania WWF with the darkened arena and older-than-old school booking. I know it's tradition but man to 2 out of 3 falls matches plod along after you've watched one fall matches in AAA. * CMLL's women's roster all seem to be graduates of the Mick Foley School of Posterior Development. Sir Mix-a-lot could revitalize his career in Mexico it seems. Goya Kong wrestles exactly like her father in both the good and bad ways. I could almost see WWE signing her just to have someone equal or bigger than Kharma, but there's no way someone like her could work for Vince before it got uncomfortable with the weight jokes. As much as the women's match sucked on this show, it was kind of amazing how any one of them would probably work circles around any of the "divas". * There seems to be a tournament going on with the young guys where they get a legend to be their mentor. Too bad no one in the crowd seemed to give two shits until the mentors (Blue Panther and Negro Casas) got involved. I get what they're trying to do with getting young guys over and possibly find a new Mistico, but it was like watching their equivalent of two green FCW guys go at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Re: Taker. I SWEAR to you that they added Paul Bearer to his act because he was too scary. Brother Love as his manager added to the package in a different way and just scared the shit out of kids. You can just see it on their faces in the crowd. When Percy came in, WAY WAY over the top, it made it all seem more cartoony and easier to accept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 So, might the careers of Scorpio and Snow, and the U.S. careers of Furnas and Kroffat, had a better outcome had they jumped to WCW instead of the WWF when they did? They all likely would have ended up in the Benoit/Malenko/Guerrero/Jericho/Rey group, and even when things in WCW fell apart been in a better position to come into WWE with a good spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 The Can Ams really didn't have it in the U.S. which I think is evident if you watch the ECW footage I have. Strangely I think Kroffat had a better sense of how to work a crowd, but he also had a less engaging look and I'm sure he would have been seen as a Malenko clone in look which is hardly something WCW or anyone else would have seen as a plus. Furnas probably could have been effective as someone's bodyguard but other than that he didn't have the presence or mic skills to survive during the MNW era. Snow was screwed by the way WWF brought him in, but it's hard to see how 95 WCW would have been a better fit. The gimmick he was working in SMW could have been excellent on national tv and would have been better suited for WWF by FAR in my view. Instead he got to be Shinobi, Avatar, Leaf Cassidy, et. and it went nowhere. Scorp I think MIGHT have been better off in WCW though he was so much bigger than the either "cruiserweight" guys I'm not sure how he would have fit in to that set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Morris Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Loss, I think there are rumblings of it as early as Survivor Series vs. Hogan. I think a lot of it goes back to Taker just having a cool character and that some people were naturally going to cheer him as a result. I didn't notice the face reactions being that strong, but it also wasn't like fans booed Taker out of the building... they were mainly in awe of the guy. I think a big reason for his face turn was because he was just running out of suitable opponents at that point. As a heel, he was best cast at that point against somebody like Hogan or Warrior, not so much with somebody like Savage or Bret who was a different breed of babyface. Thus, it made sense to turn him face and then he could have programs with heels who had a reputation of being intimidating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 I agree he didn't get booed, but I never heard him get cheered. That always felt like revisionism to me. Even watching Survivor Series '91, I just don't hear it. I always thought though, that it wasn't the feuds with Hogan and Warrior that made Undertaker a bona fide top guy. It was the feud with Jake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Re: Taker. I SWEAR to you that they added Paul Bearer to his act because he was too scary. Brother Love as his manager added to the package in a different way and just scared the shit out of kids. You can just see it on their faces in the crowd. When Percy came in, WAY WAY over the top, it made it all seem more cartoony and easier to accept. IIRC, the WWF was getting complaints from parental groups about the gimmick so they toned it down a bit. The company received a lot of flack from those groups for taking a more adult approach in 91/92 ie Savage snake bite angle,Taker locking Warrior in coffin,etc a few years later they were getting complaints about the "serial killer" undertones of the Doink gimmick so they hastily turned him face Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Also, the Can Ams were an ageing banged up tag team, so they would have likely been stuck treading water in the WCW tag division, before fading into Saturday Night obscurity. Snow would have done better in the short term, but he had a good run with the Head gimmick in the Hardcore division that was better than being around for WCW's fall. Scorpio would have fared better in WCW than the WWF, but he landed on his feet being one of All Japan/NOAH's top foreign stars for seven years. So going to WCW instead of the WWF probably wouldn't have helped their overall careers in the long run too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts