Strummer Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Nash is taking a beating online for his performance last night. Geez I didn't think he was *that* bad. Having flashbacks to late 1998/early 1999 WCW I guess Im one of the few left enjoying this story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Apparently on WOL Dave said that Vince doesn't "get" the angle and the recent weeks might be a sign of him interfering with his ideas. The shift more towards a traditional WWE angle seem to support that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 C.M. Punk was over big when he opened the show. However, the more it seemed like it was becoming 'The CM Punk Show," he was losing the fans fast (except of course the vocal male crowd). If they keep shoving him down the fans' throats like they did last night, he wont be over nearly as much by years end. ha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Still don't get why the people who hate everything WWE seem so happy that the angle isn't breaking box office records. It's like some people want wrestling to die or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 It's like some people want wrestling to die or something. It's already dead for most people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 No one is happy that the angle isn't working. It's more a case of getting those who have a blind spot when it comes to Punk to admit it. Instead, people just stopped talking about it. I do agree that some stuff, like Dave saying every veteran wrestler except Bret and Austin doesn't hold Punk in high regard, is over the top, and there's something more there that doesn't quite add up. But this angle hasn't been interesting for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Of course they stopped talking about it. It sucks now. I don't talk much about TNA either. Why? Because it sucks. I think most of the people who were fans of the angle originally liked it because it was clearly different than anything in a long time. Now it's not. To me the worst aspect of it is the fact that Punk is now being booked to work in the ring like a hammy, Ricky Morton while his character is supposed to be some shooty tweener. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 I understand that. I think because some were so defensive of giving it time and criticized others who said it was obvious that this wasn't going anywhere (I don't include you in this category), there's a desire to see some of those people come back here and state what they think of it now. Not doing so, whether intentional or not, comes across as being afraid to admit to being wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 For me, everything from Punk's first promo through the Raw after MITB was great and it did truly feel like we were seeing something "different" or "new" from WWE. When Punk came out at the end of the following Raw, my immediate gut response was "shit, they've ruined it by making it just another angle", but I was still intrigued and kept watching. (I've run hot and cold with WWE for years now, mostly cold since early 2009, and I had pretty much stopped watching entirely prior to the Greatest Promo Ever) Summerslam was a pretty good show, but everything since then has just sapped my interest completely: the bad Nash promos, the rushed Punk-HHH match, etc. I missed Raw last night for the first time since this all started and I don't plan on watching next week. It seems like the call has been made to return to the safe, conservative, predictable booking that has prevented me from fully enjoying the WWE for quite a long time now. I'll probably tune in for the build to Survivor Series, and I'll be around for the build to Mania, and will of course follow everything online. But as far as watching Raw every week goes, I think I'm "off" WWE again. It was fun while it lasted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 I think the discussion broke down into the following shifting items: * work vs shoot * it's work, but it's still fun and it going to get Punk over huge * Okay... it's starting to have some issues, but give it time, it's going to get Punk over huge * Well... about this HHH involvement... it's going to get Punk over huge And with varying degrees in there of how long it would be sustained, how over it would get Punk, how committed the company was to it, how big of a problem HHH's involvement would be, etc. It's less that people actively rooted against it. More that people were jaded by Steph & Trip & Vince & WWE Creative screwing up Really Big Things like this through the years, and not have much faith in it, either short term or long term. "It was a cool promo, but..." I don't think anyone wanted this to crap out like a drunk falling on its face. Just that folks don't have a lot of confidence in the WWE Creative team, and any cracks that popped up struck them as signs of doom. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Re-reading my post makes me look like an asshole. My apologies, that's not what I intended. I still am genuinely curious what people think of the angle now who were vocal early on, but that post reads like I only want that so I can claim victory or something. Doesn't read well. That out of the way, I think what we've learned from this is that a true turnaround that has lasting impact is going to require more than some great ideas, the emergence of a new star or a hot angle. It's going to require a change to the infrastructure of the creative team. Until they start mapping out the end result of where they want to be in 3 months, 6 months and 12 months, and until they start picking key guys in the midcard to protect for eventual pushes, these angles are always destined to fail, no matter how much promise they show at the beginning. I don't think the Punk angle lost its way because of politics or a desire to make Punk look bad. I won't be naive and say politics haven't impacted this angle at all, as I suspect they probably have, just like they do most things. But I don't think that was the driving force. I think the key issue is that the creative model in WWE is built on booking on the fly with no real long term planning or patience. They're overly reactive to week-to-week ratings and they aren't proactive enough. We could come up with great ideas that would get people interested forever, but they aren't going to work unless they're mapped out in advance with enough flexibility to allow for unforeseen things while still staying on course. It requires a re-think of how WWE puts together programs, and they simply aren't there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 As a small side note to this. I caught an advertisement on the radio for last night's Raw. HHH was getting the top billing and everyone else was just an afterthought to him on that commercial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 Re-reading my post makes me look like an asshole. My apologies, that's not what I intended. I still am genuinely curious what people think of the angle now who were vocal early on, but that post reads like I only want that so I can claim victory or something. Doesn't read well. That out of the way, I think what we've learned from this is that a true turnaround that has lasting impact is going to require more than some great ideas, the emergence of a new star or a hot angle. It's going to require a change to the infrastructure of the creative team. Until they start mapping out the end result of where they want to be in 3 months, 6 months and 12 months, and until they start picking key guys in the midcard to protect for eventual pushes, these angles are always destined to fail, no matter how much promise they show at the beginning. I don't think the Punk angle lost its way because of politics or a desire to make Punk look bad. I won't be naive and say politics haven't impacted this angle at all, as I suspect they probably have, just like they do most things. But I don't think that was the driving force. I think the key issue is that the creative model in WWE is built on booking on the fly with no real long term planning or patience. They're overly reactive to week-to-week ratings and they aren't proactive enough. We could come up with great ideas that would get people interested forever, but they aren't going to work unless they're mapped out in advance with enough flexibility to allow for unforeseen things while still staying on course. It requires a re-think of how WWE puts together programs, and they simply aren't there. nail on the head. It's a fundamental issue with the company. I really don't think this is a political thing. Just how things are structured I still like the angle but it's obviously nowhere near as hot it was in July Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 Of course they stopped talking about it. It sucks now. I don't talk much about TNA either. Why? Because it sucks.To be fair, last Thursday might have been the best Impact Wrestling show I have ever watched. I would say better than RAW, for sure. Granted you still have shit dragging it down, but just getting out of the iMPACT! Zone made a world of different. Robbie E & Eric Young are both pretty fun. The new Sting character is pretty fresh. You still have Beer Money and the like running around. Plus, Austin Aries is incredible right now. Maybe it was just like finding a needle in a haystack and the planets aligned correctly for just one week or something, but it was a good show last week. Until they start mapping out the end result of where they want to be in 3 months, 6 months and 12 months, and until they start picking key guys in the midcard to protect for eventual pushes, these angles are always destined to fail, no matter how much promise they show at the beginning.But see, this is kinda what they did and the reason why the angle sucks shit. If you "stick to your guns" you can't book on the fly to strike while the iron is hot. Punk caught fire. WWE pay a group of people to be creative. They should be able to shift gears and go with what is hot. Instead, they stuck to their plan and now the belt is on Del Rio for Mexico. Punk is, not an afterthought, but certainly not the next Stone Cold either. Which a lot of people thought he was heading in that direction. Now he's getting 'bombed by Nash and arguing over text messages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 I think I used the term "cautiously optimistic" in regards to the whole Punk angle. Now I'd say the "cautiously" part was right. I guess it's just the fact that they're really the only game in town when it comes to wrestling, but I always want WWE to be great. They just let me down more often than not. Really, the things that made the angle interesting are dead to me. However, I wouldn't totally write off the idea that this could all make Punk a top guy. I think that all hinges on his match with HHH. I think the outcome of that match will speak volumes as to how he'll be considered from here on out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted September 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 I'm not a Punk mark, but I think I'm one of the people Loss is referring to. I haven't cared for where the angle has gone the last couple weeks, and it's mostly because of Nash's involvement. I was hoping he'd be playing Diesel for Del Rio, but instead he's cutting promos that are mostly dragging. I'm still interested in where things go from here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 I think if they wanted a shoot Hunter friend to be inserted into the angle and play the "are they in cahoots or not?" game, then WWE creative should have looked to Sheamus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 It's like some people want wrestling to die or something. It's already dead for most people. Honestly, and I hate being that guy to bring this up, because usually we don't do that here, but seriously, I don't get why you hang out in most of these notes. I get why you might hang out in a note about a topic that appeals more to you here, absolutely. I get why you're here in general. This is a good board, but I really don't why you spend so much time in notes about the WWE product just to flaunt the fact that you don't watch it. -- As for cautious optimism. I think Money in the Bank (and Punk's antics during the week thereafter) got some people to put their guard down. The truth of it is that WWE has been comedically screwing up summer angles since Angle vs HHH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 WWE.com posted minutes ago that Kevin Nash was released make of that what you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 I think people have been too quick to write it off as a work. Now I do believe that they're probably correct, but given that he failed his WWE physical and has been terrible on the mic since returning, they may have decided to cut their losses on Nash before it's too late. That might be wishful thinking on my part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 I'm just surprised that they all forgot how injury prone and NOT OVER he was in his 2002-2003 comeback, especially after the NWO was disbanded. Remember the RAW where he yelled at heel Jericho and got booed out of the building? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 he was pretty awesome in TNA though just being himself and being a smarmy selfish prick. But the WWE just won't let him act that way. Whether it be 16 years ago, 8 years ago or a month ago. Vince just has this idea on how Nash should be and it goes against Nash's strengths (ass kicker, saracastic dillhole) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Morris Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 At the very least, you would think they would have made sure Nash was physically able to wrestle before deciding they were going to have him be part of a PPV match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 MKJ and Dave pretty much crapped on this already as a worked part of the storyline. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted September 8, 2011 Report Share Posted September 8, 2011 MKJ and Dave pretty much crapped on this already as a worked part of the storyline. John Didn't they say the same thing about Daniel Bryan's release? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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