Ring of Honor Wrestling

[The Thread Killer]

I’m mostly annoyed at Gresham because the news about him is overshadowing the Briscoes/FTR match. More people are talking about him walking out than they are talking about what might be one of the best matches of all time.

[ragemaster]

The crowd held the Briscoes vs the FTR match back as a best match of all time, for me. As they were too quiet during the first couple of falls. 

Plus I was legit concerned for the safely of Dax when he landed on his head from the doomsday device and also the table spot looked liked it killed both guys as well. 

Even though the table spot wasn't hit perfectly and I was worried for them after the landing, I will point out that's how you set up a table spot. It was very organic in how it was put into position. Not a 2 min break in the match to get it ready for the bump. 

But still a match of the year candidate for sure 

[sek69]

It looks like the show was a big hit in terms of digital buys, more than the first TK produced ROH show, and was something like the #4 all time biggest attendance for a ROH show. Basically it was the biggest ROH crowd for a show not on a Mania weekend or in MSG. 

[El-P]

I was off the news so I had no idea about Gresham. I get it better now why he came to the ring without his gear and why the match felt like a pretty good semi-competitive prolonged squash as opposed to the great match it should have been. Bummer about Gresham, I love his work. TK really has an issue with communication it seems, whenever someone is not gonna be used. I would be pissed too honestly. Dunno if it's Daniels fault, but they need to address this issue, there's a clear pattern of ghosting people.

Enjoyed the six-men match. Dalton & the Boys are a cool act. The other 3 (I only knew Vincent from watching him in IMPACT) looked interesting as well.

The Pure Title stuff is so cool, like an updated, pro-style take on UWF-I. Enjoyed the match a lot. Ditto Rush vs Dragon Lee, in a totally different style. I sure hope Dragon Lee gets signed tomorrow.

Martinez vs Deeb was good, but I gotta say I hoped Deeb would win, so I was kinda disappointed in this. I always come off a bit underwhelmed with Martinez. I can see she's good, but there's something not clicking. The fact I've heard insane level of pimping for years about her probably doesn't help, sadly, that's what ridiculously overrating "cult" figures do. Deeb is always a pleasure to watch. 

Joe vs Lethal was very good, but I admit I got tired by then, so I wasn't into the match as much as I should have. Joe looks like the best Old Joe he can, and Lethal has looked nothing but excellent since he showed up in AEW. Right guy won.

The main event was awesome. Probably not at the same level as the first match, I dunno, but still easily in the MOTYC category for 2022. This is an all-time great feud we're witnessing in real-time. What an awesome year for FTR, this is all they ever wanted and could never have in WWE. Great for them ! 

If the show ends up a success, that's really a good news for this ROH project. 

[NintendoLogic]

There's only so much that can be done with a jacked-up mini who has zero charisma and wrestles a grounded style. Gresham having competitive matches with the likes of Claudio and Samoa Joe would simply look absurd.

[Jmare007]

Another thing, Ricabonni and Coleman were fucking fantastic during the main event. Best commentary job I've heard in a big match in a long, long ass time.

 

ps: I thought the first fall was OK and I agree it lacked the atmosphere to make it a true classic in my eyes, but the work Briscoes and FTR did in the 2nd and 3rd fall is very hard to find.

[C.S.]

There's a rumor going around that Gresham brought up his PWI 500 ranking to Tony Khan during their argument. If true, holy shit!

Supposedly reported by PWInsider, but I never go to that spyware-infested shithole of a site.

(For all I know, it hasn't been that way in years - but they lost my trust almost immediately and never gained it back.)

[sek69]

Gresham always came off as a "ITS STILL REAL TO ME" type, which is a shame since he is a really talented guy.

[strobogo]

The super piledriver is the first time that I can think of in US wrestling where someone just deaded a mf with a super ultimate finish that isn't actually their finish.

[KawadaSmile]

4 hours ago, C.S. said:

There's a rumor going around that Gresham brought up his PWI 500 ranking to Tony Khan during their argument. If true, holy shit!

It is a super fucking mark argument on his part, but I do recall AEW and TK praising their wrestlers on their PWI accomplishments. 

[C.S.]

1 hour ago, KawadaSmile said:

It is a super fucking mark argument on his part, but I do recall AEW and TK praising their wrestlers on their PWI accomplishments. 

It's one thing to praise kayfabe accomplishments on-camera as a kayfabe part of the show - it's another thing entirely for a wrestler to bring that up in a business meeting as a leverage point. 

[funkdoc]

Hearing from more reputable sources that stuff was bullshit, which i figured from the start.  i can buy Ahmed Johnson using PWI as a bargaining chip in the 90s, not a history buff in the modern era

[Embrodak]

I mean even if it is true. it’s honestly not a terrible argument to make when Tony Khan clearly takes things like match ratings and PWI rankings seriously - not necessarily in a mark sense (although I wouldn’t put that past him) but in the sense that he clearly uses those things as proxies for what is likely to keep his fans watching. Haven’t the PWI rankings been mentioned in AEW before?

[WingedEagle]

So we're supposed to pay to watch the new TV show?

[Stiva]

This new ROH is exciting purely because it seems like it’ll be the home of Slim J working studio style for the foreseeable. Some more stray thoughts:

The show didn’t feel too different in style from AEW but there were enough distinct faces to make it feel like it’s own promotion and I’m sure there’ll be big crossover anyway. 
 

The Infantry is a fantastic WCW C-Show tag team; they have the corny entrance attire, the choreographed double teams and they lose to the established teams. In general, there’s a lot of freshness in the tags. You’ve got Trustbusters, The Kingdom, Aussie Open, Claudio/Yuta, Titus/Williams, Roju/Johl, The Embassy and that’s just on this show alone.

Sabre Jr calling out Danielson seems to indicate one match for Forbidden Door at the very least.

Christopher Daniels pulling a regular schedule in 2023 is certainly something I didn’t expect.

Takeshita vs Woods felt like a match you’d find nestled into the centre of Dynamite so the general flow of the in-ring work seems to be some competitive TV matches mixed in with a couple of marquee, longer matches intended to be of a much higher quality. I think I’d prefer Takeshita to win a title in AEW but it feels like he may be the guy who beats Claudio.

The commentary is really great. They’ve got fantastic chemistry, for a start but it’s not just the calling of the action and relaying the stories, they’re having fun with all of the characters. Saying that the Trustbusters have enough money to make it so Metalik didn’t get an entrance, things like that. Really just a total net positive for the whole show and everyone on it.

The women’s matches on the show were…fine. Madison Rayne went nowhere in AEW so why not send her to ROH to help bring the rookies along. Willow Nightingale showing up is, like Takeshita, the case of someone who I’d prefer to be getting a sustained AEW push but at least it seems like it’s going to happen somewhere.

Plenty of AEW advertising and a few references to make things clear that, yeah, this is its own promotion but I assume it’s expected that you’ll watch it along with Dynamite and Rampage as the AEW “universe” if you will. Especially if the idea is that workers will “graduate” to Dynamite from ROH with momentum.

Claudio vs Kingston at the PPV seems like the time to bring in a certain Chris Hero…

Overall, it was a really good first episode. There was nothing outright bad other than the Daniels match plodding along and it feels like a roster full of people that can certainly put on good matches. Whether Khan can be relied on to book another 2 hours of TV and fill it with memorable angles is another question altogether. 

[G. Badger]

It's been awhile since anyone has posted here so thought maybe I could stir up some dialog. I'm thinking of going through some of my ROH backlog and am curious on what people think is the best and worse in ring years for pre-Tony ROH. Exclude the quarantine stuff if you want. Or if you want what were the best/worst of the Gabe years, post Gabe, Sinclair era etc.

Any unpopular opinions are welcome because I'm always interested in revisiting /re-evaluating these types of things. Same with any under-rated or overrated matches/shows.

[Autistic Dragon]

Looks like the CW has been looking to get a wrestling show for longer than we thought.

https://www.f4wonline.com/news/aew/report-cw-executive-approached-tony-khan-about-roh-deal-in-2022

[Blehschmidt]

Black Taurus has shown up on the Supercard of Honor pre-show with a slightly different mask and a new name.... The Beast Mortos

Really like the wrestler.... Hate the name.

[Stiva]

Mark Briscoe winning the title was a great moment and I like the overarching story of Briscoe stepping out as a singles guy, cutting his teeth in the CC and then using that experience to win the big one. Athena really needs to be on AEW TV in a featured role leading up to Wembley. She’s so fucking great

[strobogo]

Queen Aminata rules, need to get her in a prominent role in AEW division ASAP. AEW time line is so bizarre where we get shit like Minoru Suzuki beating the shit out of Billy Gunn's kids who for some reason dress like 1992/1993 HBK, in 2024. 

 

[Coffey]

They really need to put Athena back on the main AEW show. Especially now that AEW signed Mercedes Moné. Athena has more than proven herself in ROH.

[Matt D]

Ten years from now (with a footage perspective) we’re all going to look back with relief that Athena was anchoring ROH for so long instead of wasted on Dynamite. I can see why people are frustrated in the moment though.

[Laz]

On 8/18/2023 at 12:30 AM, G. Badger said:

It's been awhile since anyone has posted here so thought maybe I could stir up some dialog. I'm thinking of going through some of my ROH backlog and am curious on what people think is the best and worse in ring years for pre-Tony ROH. Exclude the quarantine stuff if you want. Or if you want what were the best/worst of the Gabe years, post Gabe, Sinclair era etc.

Any unpopular opinions are welcome because I'm always interested in revisiting /re-evaluating these types of things. Same with any under-rated or overrated matches/shows.

If you're still interested in doing this, I'll always recommend the first 5 years (2002-2007) of ROH as being one of the best wrestling products to ever exist. It felt like there was a true MOTYC every other card, like the bar for what a good US in-ring product was supposed to be was getting raised with every show. If it featured Bryan Danielson, Christopher Daniels, LowKi, Samoa Joe, Paul London, CM Punk, Nigel McGuinness, or the DragonGate crew in that timeframe then it's worth watching. Notable mentions to the Briscoes as they started to really build themselves into what they did best around 2006; Homicide bringing a good blend of violence and some very good wrestling in spurts; and whenever AJ Styles could show up due to the TNA deal (when the company flip-flopped on allowing contracted talent to work there).

For the worst? 2016-onward is pretty dire. When you're pushing Matt Taven and Vinny Marseglia as top guys you known you're in dire straits.

Taven is a perfectly capable midcard heel. There was a period where Rhode Island indie XWA was acting as a feeder system for ROH, and he (as well as Mike Bennett) put in some really fun work there, but he's a case where his strengths still would've capped him as a lower card guy during the New Generation/Attitude eras, but he was trying to work as a "Ring of Honor main event" player. Which means he'd eschew whatever personality he had to focus on typical highspots (dives, bombs, etc.). Kind of a shame, really, because he carries this casual smugness about him that could've worked well if Delirious booked him right.

And Vinny...how that guy has as high profile a career as he does is insane to me. He goes from a generic Orton-type to copycatting Bray Wyatt to whatever the hell he's doing now. And he, like Taven, was pushed far too high for what he brings to the table.

[G. Badger]

On 5/17/2024 at 9:53 PM, Laz said:

If you're still interested in doing this, I'll always recommend the first 5 years (2002-2007) of ROH as being one of the best wrestling products to ever exist. It felt like there was a true MOTYC every other card, like the bar for what a good US in-ring product was supposed to be was getting raised with every show. If it featured Bryan Danielson, Christopher Daniels, LowKi, Samoa Joe, Paul London, CM Punk, Nigel McGuinness, or the DragonGate crew in that timeframe then it's worth watching. Notable mentions to the Briscoes as they started to really build themselves into what they did best around 2006; Homicide bringing a good blend of violence and some very good wrestling in spurts; and whenever AJ Styles could show up due to the TNA deal (when the company flip-flopped on allowing contracted talent to work there).

For the worst? 2016-onward is pretty dire. When you're pushing Matt Taven and Vinny Marseglia as top guys you known you're in dire straits.

Taven is a perfectly capable midcard heel. There was a period where Rhode Island indie XWA was acting as a feeder system for ROH, and he (as well as Mike Bennett) put in some really fun work there, but he's a case where his strengths still would've capped him as a lower card guy during the New Generation/Attitude eras, but he was trying to work as a "Ring of Honor main event" player. Which means he'd eschew whatever personality he had to focus on typical highspots (dives, bombs, etc.). Kind of a shame, really, because he carries this casual smugness about him that could've worked well if Delirious booked him right.

And Vinny...how that guy has as high profile a career as he does is insane to me. He goes from a generic Orton-type to copycatting Bray Wyatt to whatever the hell he's doing now. And he, like Taven, was pushed far too high for what he brings to the table.

Yeah I'm definitely still doing this. It's ended up being a long term project since 1) I have a bunch of DVDs & 2) I get side tracked easily. So I kinda just chip away a little bit each year.

2002-'04 has been what I've been watching over the past few years in bits & pieces. I'm a big fan of Paul London's stuff & I agree every time AJ Styles shows up he has a great match or better. I started my "look back" 7-8 years ago with 2005. It seemed to be the most hyped year and other than Joe vs Kobashi, I hadn't seen any of it. So I have seen a good deal of this & love the GenNext vs Embassy stuff. For a little bit, I considered doing a rewatch of 2005 (that's kinda where I'm at chronologically) but there's actually way too much.  But I do have a couple un-watched shows (Escape from New York, Vendetta (so psyched to have got this one) & Showdown in Motown (one I really got for Sabin vs Danielson)).

I have seen some of very high end stuff and the B-shows from the last couple months of 2006...but definitely I only have seen bits and pieces. I recall Briscoes vs Joe & Homicide having a couple crazy matches on one or both of shows. Any other match, show, feud that you'd recommend? 

Kinda the same story with '07-'08 but to greater extent. I have seen a handful of shows/matches on compilations or an odd DVD.

Thanks for the insight with Taven, Bennett & Vinny! I actually have a good chunk of the dire years on DVD as ROH was practically giving them away the last few Sinclair years  

Thanks for the reply! It's definitely given me the spark to get back into these.

[Migs]

I would add there's a lot of great stuff in 2016-2018 if you enjoy the Bullet Club guys. Everything tumbles off a cliff dramatically in 2019.