NXT TakeOver Brooklyn

[JerryvonKramer]

Oh right, I'll have to remember that next time I see anyone review a random match on YouTube. I think people are confusing the emotional pay off of a storyline with match quality. I cried for Flair vs. Vader, I don't think it's a masterpiece of a match. There is a difference.

 

I didn't really review Sasha vs. Bayley last night, but for what it's worth, it told a really wonderful story. I didn't have a lot of context beyond that hype package and even within the boundaries of the match they established brilliantly that Sasha was a dick heel and a bully, and Bayley was the underdog. I went in rooting for Sasha and even I secretly got turned around because Sasha was that horrible. I loved some of that "you're a loser!" stuff. Don't get me wrong it was a very good match that told a vivid story with a great finish and a satisfying pay off. I dug it a lot.

 

But talk of ****3/4 seems wild to me. I could get ****1/2 maybe, but I think more than that is emotion speaking. But y'know what do I know, I've been to corners of the internet where I saw someone give Arn and Larry vs. Dustin and Steamer ***, and to me that's a nailed on *****3/4. People have different views.

[Grimmas]

I didn't really review Sasha vs. Bayley last night, but for what it's worth, it told a really wonderful story. I didn't have a lot of context beyond that hype package and even within the boundaries of the match they established brilliantly that Sasha was a dick heel and a bully, and Bayley was the underdog. I went in rooting for Sasha and even I secretly got turned around because Sasha was that horrible. I loved some of that "you're a loser!" stuff. Don't get me wrong it was a very good match that told a vivid story with a great finish and a satisfying pay off. I dug it a lot.

 

But talk of ****3/4 seems wild to me. I could get ****1/2 maybe, but I think more than that is emotion speaking. But y'know what do I know, I've been to corners of the internet where I saw someone give Arn and Larry vs. Dustin and Steamer ***, and to me that's a nailed on *****3/4. People have different views.

That's a perfectly valid view.

[NotJayTabb]

Not much I can add to the preceding pages about the show and how good it was, but the three matches I was really looking forward to (the three title matches) delivered in spades. One little detail in the ladder match I loved was in the ending: I always hate those "Jeff Hardy has the match won, but he's going to hit a 15ft high Swanton onto Edge instead of escaping the cage" moments, so I liked the fact the big match ending spot (Coup de Grace from the ladder) actually made sense (Balor can't reach the belt from the ladder, so his quickest way down to fix it also involves hitting his finisher on Owens)

[MJH]

There's a difference between knowing Bayley will counter because we've seen enough wrestling to know what's coming, and knowing Bayley's going to counter because Sasha rears her arm back and holds it there for a second to cue Bayley that it's to be blocked, the same way when a guy comes half way across the ring with his arms raised in an axehandle and we know he's going to get kicked in the gut. Sasha wasn't that pronounced, but there was a noticeable beat to make sure Bayley remembered the spot or had heard her call (depending how much of it they'd worked out). That hesitancy is green. The trash talking spot wouldn't have been as obvious had Sasha been doing more of it ahead of time. Yes, it's the spot we want to see, that wasn't my issue, my issue was in the execution of it, and everything about Sasha leaning her head into the perfect spot and the camera angle, it was just too obvious to me that "oh, she's kicking her".

 

As for the headbumps... we've given Sabu shit for over 20 years about falling on his head when he wasn't supposed to, getting up, and continuing with the planned spot/s as if he hadn't. Bayley wasn't that bad - she was meant to bump not land on her feet, say, it's not as if she got right up - but the reality is she fell off the top rope onto her head and nothing was made of it. The problem with Sasha's wasn't that she popped up - she bumped, rolled over to the ref to say she was OK, gave Bayley time to get up, and then fed up into the finish. I'm OK with them having the Bayley-to-Belly as a plan b had the rana not looked too good (say Sasha overrates and clearly lands on her knees), but given how well it looked there's no way that needed anything coming afterwards and you've given Bayley her ultra-big-show-finisher. And it needed no more from the ref than "you good?", "yeah", "stay".

 

For what it's worth, I didn't think Bayley "no sold" the hand (?), the stomping spot into the counter was a fucking great spot/sequence, the match hit all its cues and delivered on the emotion etc... and I probably did prefer it to the G1 final (which had far better execution but I found far worse-laid-out, etc), and to Cena/Owens... but "great" to me is a level these girls just aren't at, their mechanics simply aren't good. Nor are Cena's, mind you, but for all his patterns he doesn't telegraph nearly as much. I mean I don't want to harp on about it, we clearly have differences in how we look at wrestling (whilst I'm not a ratings guy, ****3/4 would be equal to any women's match I've ever seen, better than any match since 1998, and as good as all but four matches I've ever seen period), but there's a fundamental weakness (/green-ness) in their execution that I can't ignore and needs tightening up.

[Grimmas]

Never once did I notice this holding up on punches thing.

[tim]

I don't think this is anything close to show of the year -- the "big three," Wrestlemania, WrestleKingdom and Ultima Lucha all totally blow it away in my opinion and it's not even close. But it was a very good show with one outstanding match (Bayley/Sasha). Corbin/Joe did nothing for me and Crews' debut was a bit boring, should've been a quick competitive squash with 90% him on offense. The big crowd was cool but I'm just getting tired of these chant-happy crowds. I know you gotta deal with it but for some reason it annoyed me tonight more than usual. Maybe I was hoping for something a little different since they're away from Full Sail.

 

One thing I thought looking at the line up was something like Joe/Corbin needed to be replaced by that 8 man tag with Enzo and Cass. If that were the opener and they worked a fast-paced multi-man tag full of crowd pleasing spots from the big semi-home town faces, I think this show would've came across a lot better as a whole.

[Benbeeach]

Sasha/Bayley is as good as I've felt watching wrestling in a long time. I clapped at my screen when it was all said and done and let out audible "way to go's" and "that's how it's done."

Sasha is legitimately one of the best wrestlers in the world. When people talked about her with such high esteem, I initially gaffed and guffawed, because I just didn't think a woman, in a "developmental" territory could lay claim to something like that. But it's that praise that made me start paying closer and closer attention to her work. In the 4-way where she won the title, I noticed a lot of little things she did great. Then with the much ballyhooed Becky Lynch match, I could see more and more about what people were talking about. The way she'd wrench in a submission, her bumping, with her being slight of frame making everything look huge, while not coming off weak herself. Her character work, which from an x's and o's standpoint isn't that out of this world. Wrestler who's full of themselves isn't exactly the reinvention of the wheel, but she does it in a way that blows any other woman out of the water, most men too.

This match was amazing. It wasn't just the huge spots which were awesome, but again like dylan said, the macro and the micro. Sasha fought for the middle rope double knee drop like heck, and the commentary and work put over Bayley as having scouted it and been super ready for it, fighting like heck to get out of it. So when Sasha finally does go to hit it, she batters Bayley with 10 forearms, perches her on the top rope, and gives the crowd a look, an "I'm not playing games anymore" look, and it's in that look that I was completely sold. It's one part evil, one part cocky, annoyed, menacing. It wasn't so much braggadocio, as it was business, like a boss would do. Sasha speaks of Eddy being her favorite wrestler, and it was the kind of scowl a heel Guererro would do so convincingly that would make you buy into what he was doing more than most of his compatriots. Kudos to the WWE camera work for catching it.

And this doesn't even begin to go into all the things Bayley did well. The hand stomping payoff during the submission was incredible and to anyone complaining about the selling, seriously shut up. Limb work = meaning you can never use the limb again is stupid. Bayley sold it like heck, shook it out, screamed in pain. I just bought any time she actually mustered up the strength to grasp with both hands as her fighting through the pain. When Sasha would so much as touch the hand to attempt to break the grip she'd yell again. It wasn't all time selling but it was more than serviceable, it was very good.

The finish was bonkers and I couldn't believe my eyes. Was moved to as manly as I'm willing to admit on this forum. I have no problem with a curtain call after a performance like that in 2015. They deserved their moment. It's a testament to the booking and character work that in January I was more or less indifferent if not oblivious to all four of these women and in August they made my eyes well up and onion chopping/allergy season come extra early. Bravo

The match has my highest regards. The whole was greater than the sum of its parts, and its parts were really fucking excellent. It's no less than 4 stars and if someone said 5, I'm listening.

[Benbeeach]

And that doesn't even begin to mention how cool it was to see Liger in a WWE ring. Joe and Corbin being more than passable (but like others have said the best Joe is far far behind us). What a sucker I am for the Vaudevillians gimmick, seriously can't get enough of it and wish they'd go even more over the top. That "old chap" brawling is amazing, they should work more nifty Euro cheeky spots, seriously awesome. And KO is a prime time player, fat be damned. He's punched his ticket now.

Great show. Felt really really good to watch.

[KrisZ]

I tried to do the reaction show but had to bow out due to having to get up at 6:30 AM for work but thoughts......

 

Liger vs. Breeze

 

About everything you would've wanted from this......the awesome entrance from Breeze, Liger doing Breeze's spots like he did with Dalton Castle, not too long and just enough time plus Liger going over clean as a shit which was the right finish as it doesn't hurt Breeze to lose to the legend.

 

Vaudevillains vs. Blake & Murphy

 

The best match both of these teams have ever been in....Aiden English is really growing on me as a worker.....Blue Pants was over like crazy whether you like it or not and it made complete sense for her to be involved here.....Alexa Bliss has gotten stronger and stronger playing heel.....This was the right finish as well and I was proud of the Vaudevillains to get that win when they deserved it.

 

Apollo Crews vs. Tye Dillinger

 

I really dig Tye's gimmick right now as it got him out of the purgatory he was in.....Apollo is main roster ready right now.....he has an aura about him that can get over very easily if portrayed right.........I am interested in who they program him with though.....Breeze may be the guy.......the match itself was the least of the show but it was still very good.

 

Samoa Joe vs. Baron Corbin

 

This was the NXT Hoss Fight.....two bulls going at it and while Joe looked like he was a tick slower than normal this worked very well.....EASILY Corbin's best showing and if he can expand on this he may actually have a chance on the main roster.....I still think his gimmick as the Indie Hater with Randy Orton would be amazing.....

 

Bayley vs. Sasha Banks

 

What can you say about this match......it was amazing for many reasons.....the work was about as good as you can get not just in the WWE but in wrestling in general right now.....the entrances were so fun especially Sasha......Sasha acting like a complete badass motherfucker like she was a female Tenryu was awesome.....Bayley is the easily the best babyface they have on their roster right now and the easiest that fans can get emotionally invested in and that's why this match is getting so much love more than the work because of the emotion people had in Bayley and I'm talking about grown ass men here not women and kids....the finish was tremendous and the payoff to over a year of build because Bayley was always on the outside looking in while the others got their shine and now she is the Queen......then you had the curtain call with the Horsewomen together and there is no way you can convince me that this shouldn't have closed the show because that was NXT my friends. Match of the Year candidate no doubt and "THE" Match of the Year.....it's as good of a choice as any other right now.

 

Balor vs. Owens

 

Now this match was fucking awesome.....a lot of people couldn't get into it because of the previous match and I understand that but holy shit this was one of the best ladder matches I've ever seen because it felt like a ladder match worked on a BattlARTS show.....these dudes were working stiff and Kevin Owens is a complete fucking insane madman for the bumps and punishment he took. This was as good of a Balor performance I have ever seen and these dudes delivered in a major way that they should be proud of themselves.....but it still should've went before the divas match......

 

On the whole this show had everything you wanted but I do wish that Enzo & Cass would've gotten on the main show....is it show of the year maybe not but they delivered everything in spades and NXT big shows continue to deliver in major ways....they may not be filled with 4-star matches but they are consistent to a high degree and that is important to a fan.

[DMJ]

Obviously this conversation could be its own thread, but when it comes to rating matches (as I've started doing - please check out my blog as I recently posted ratings for hundreds of WCW and WWE matches), I'm definitely willing to admit that I give "bonus points" for the full presentation, production, etc.

 

I, personally, couldn't look at any match as only what happens between the sound of the bells. To do that, you'd have to ignore the crowd's investment or post-match shenanigans or the commentary. I'm not saying I put huge weight on those things, but, to me, that's why I would say Outsiders/Luger & Sting & Savage at Bash at the Beach 96' is a "must watch" for contemporary wrestling fans even if there isn't a single actual wrestling sequence in the whole thing that's memorable.

 

With that in mind, I see Bayley/Banks as an easy 3.5 if you look at just the story told by the performers in the "meat" of the match…but factor in the effectiveness of the pre-match video, the "big match feel" that the crowd brought to it, and the post-match scene and I had no problem boosting it up a full point to a 4.5.

 

Some video games critic once wrote that the pinnacle of gaming design is when playing or completing a video game will make the user cry because bringing that level of emotion is incredibly rare for not only video games but any medium. We all might have movies or songs that make us cry - but how many wrestling moments are there that really draw that sort of reaction? Obviously, trolls will bring up the annual Hall of Fame ceremony, but I'm talking about "in the moment" examples that happen in the ring in the context of an actual wrestling show. There's Savage and Liz reuniting at WM7. There's the occasional retirement announcement/speech on RAW. There's been Daniel Bryan and Shawn Michaels and Eddie and Benoit finally living their "boyhood dream." That Bayley win and the "Curtain Call" ending achieved a similar feeling on a smaller level and I don't think one can overstate how remarkable that is when you also reflect on the history of women's wrestling in the WWE. I'm not going to call it a watershed moment because the momentum of the "Divas Revolution" could vanish in 6 months, but if it does all end, I could think of no better ending to the story of the NXT Divas than what happened last night.

[Tim Cooke]

Thoughts on Banks/Bailey:

 

- Match was very good. Really liked the hand spot for the rope break but was that even the best rope break spot of the past month and a half (Sakuraba/Shibata)?

 

- Not sure why Banks did a flashy dive when she is the heel and Bailey didn't get to do a dive. Weird psychology. Liked the spring board lucha arm drag though.

 

- Execution was an issue like MJH said, but that's not new news. I can live with some execution issues but if they are there, they should be acknowledged. To expect anyone to be Jun Akiyama level out of the gate is absurd, but it's equally absurd to just gloss over this.

 

- When Bailey was screaming in pain (which I thought was good selling), it was reminiscent of Toyota screaming, which is something she usually gets blasted for.

 

- Like most of the New Japan stuff that has been hyped as the second coming, I don't see this at *****. That's not completely fair because this match was very good but *****, MOTY? I think bias gets in the way because the sample size of good women's wrestling today is so small that any good match sticks out and becomes great. In baseball, you need a decent enough sample size to be able to tell if a hitter is legit.

 

50 PA: Swing %
100 PA: Contact Rate
150 PA: Strikeout Rate, Line Drive Rate, Pitches/PA
200 PA: Walk Rate, Groundball Rate, GB/FB
250 PA: Flyball Rate
300 PA: Home Run Rate, HR/FB
500 PA: OBP, SLG, OPS, 1B Rate, Popup Rate
550 PA: ISO

 

Obviously the wrestling equivalent would have to be much smaller since wrestling 2-3 times per week is much different than getting 3-5 plate appearances every night. If this match was worked by two male wrestlers, spot for spot, etc. would it be getting ***** hype? My guess is no but maybe I'm the outlier there. Novelty plays a big role in NXT. Cart out NXT every Monday Night - would the results be the same?

 

But it's like Santo showing up on tape 1-2 times per year from 2006-2010 or BattlArts disappearing for 3 years from 2005-2008 before showing up for monthly shows again in June 2008. Once the novelty wears off, you can get a more accurate read on how good these matches really are.

 

Also, WWE pushing this as the main event despite it not being the main event is a fuck you to Banks and Bailey. Unless it is Hogan in the 80's working the match before intermission or a stacked Wrestlemania card (this show was neither), the main event is the main event. Even ROH got that right from the start - Eddy/Super Crazy went on second to last while Daniels/Danielson/Ki closed the show.

 

Like I said above, maybe I'm the outlier because this stuff just isn't hitting me with being in the all time great league. But I also watched two excellent lucha matches this week, with good heat, wrestled in front of 3,000 people, and both are at this level or better. [Hechicero/UG vs Avisman/Caifan and Virus vs. Cerebro] The first was an excellent tag match and the second was maybe the best Virus match of the last 2-3 years. I'd put the tag at **** and the Virus match at ****1/2. But they aren't novel, especially since BT Jr. took over the lucha indy reigns in 2009 and we are getting to see this stuff much more frequently.

 

This match struck me as novel and it will be interesting to see if it holds up over the test of time.

[Benbeeach]

 

Obviously this conversation could be its own thread, but when it comes to rating matches (as I've started doing - please check out my blog as I recently posted ratings for hundreds of WCW and WWE matches), I'm definitely willing to admit that I give "bonus points" for the full presentation, production, etc.

 

I, personally, couldn't look at any match as only what happens between the sound of the bells. To do that, you'd have to ignore the crowd's investment or post-match shenanigans or the commentary. I'm not saying I put huge weight on those things, but, to me, that's why I would say Outsiders/Luger & Sting & Savage at Bash at the Beach 96' is a "must watch" for contemporary wrestling fans even if there isn't a single actual wrestling sequence in the whole thing that's memorable.

 

With that in mind, I see Bayley/Banks as an easy 3.5 if you look at just the story told by the performers in the "meat" of the match…but factor in the effectiveness of the pre-match video, the "big match feel" that the crowd brought to it, and the post-match scene and I had no problem boosting it up a full point to a 4.5.

 

Some video games critic once wrote that the pinnacle of gaming design is when playing or completing a video game will make the user cry because bringing that level of emotion is incredibly rare for not only video games but any medium. We all might have movies or songs that make us cry - but how many wrestling moments are there that really draw that sort of reaction? Obviously, trolls will bring up the annual Hall of Fame ceremony, but I'm talking about "in the moment" examples that happen in the ring in the context of an actual wrestling show. There's Savage and Liz reuniting at WM7. There's the occasional retirement announcement/speech on RAW. There's been Daniel Bryan and Shawn Michaels and Eddie and Benoit finally living their "boyhood dream." That Bayley win and the "Curtain Call" ending achieved a similar feeling on a smaller level and I don't think one can overstate how remarkable that is when you also reflect on the history of women's wrestling in the WWE. I'm not going to call it a watershed moment because the momentum of the "Divas Revolution" could vanish in 6 months, but if it does all end, I could think of no better ending to the story of the NXT Divas than what happened last night.

^ I agree with this post in full, 100 percent. There is no separating the match from the context. When I inexplicably realized I had a tear on my cheek at the end of it, I knew I saw something special.

 

---edit---

Missed DMJ's post by minutes

Edited August 23, 2015 by Benbeeach

[Timbo Slice]

While I said it was the best women's match in WWE history, I compared it on a yearly level with all the matches I've seen and while the setting for Bayley/Sasha helped a great deal, sometimes great matches are great because of setting and other times they're great because of work. You're looking at the wrong sample size. It's not about the sample of how many great women's matches there were this year. It was a matter of how many great matches there were period. Strictly comparing it to the other women's matches undercuts what they were trying to do. You can't compare it on a spot for spot basis vs. men because they didn't tell that story. It's not about the fact that women did it. It's about the fact that the story itself was done the way it was. I understand what you're trying to do, but the reason the match was great WAS because it was the story of Sasha and Bailey. They told it, they made it great. It's inherent in the match and really can't be duplicated.

[Grimmas]

Saying it is being labelled great because it's a women's match is just plain wrong.

[benjaminkicks]

I had Bayley (two "Y"s, people) vs. Sasha at ****, which I consider great, but it was shy of being a MOTYC for me. I'm not surprised that people loved it, but it didn't connect on that level for me, and I consider myself a pretty big Bayley fan. I'll most likely give it a rewatch before the year is over, because I think it might grow on me during a second viewing.

[MJH]

Saying it is being labelled great because it's a women's match is just plain wrong.

 

I don't think it is. Let's say hypothetically it's 1993 and AJW is airing in the US and the NXT crowds are coming to these women's matches having just seen Hokuto/Kandori... the NXT girls aren't getting raved about. I'm not blaming anyone for that - your perspective is only what you've seen, and we've all been teenagers who thought the hot band at the time was the greatest thing ever - but it is what it is. Most of them probably haven't seen even Bull/Alundra which I'm not sure is any worse than these NXT matches (the Raw match is terrible) and on Big Egg it stunk because of what it was sharing the stage with.

[Benbeeach]

Watching the amounts or wrestling in the way we consume wrestling, with an almost automaton approach to grading good and bad wrestling, sometimes the humanity can get lost. Sometimes it's ok to take a step back, and enjoy things for what they are, or might mean in the grand scheme. Hard to watch a vid like this and not conjure up "the feelz" Has to be a big part of why we all watched to begin with.

[Grimmas]

 

Saying it is being labelled great because it's a women's match is just plain wrong.

 

I don't think it is. Let's say hypothetically it's 1993 and AJW is airing in the US and the NXT crowds are coming to these women's matches having just seen Hokuto/Kandori... the NXT girls aren't getting raved about.

 

It's a freaking great match no matter what company or who was involved. If anybody was that good as a face or that great of a heel with that story, it would get praised.

[BillThompson]

 

Saying it is being labelled great because it's a women's match is just plain wrong.

 

I don't think it is. Let's say hypothetically it's 1993 and AJW is airing in the US and the NXT crowds are coming to these women's matches having just seen Hokuto/Kandori... the NXT girls aren't getting raved about. I'm not blaming anyone for that - your perspective is only what you've seen, and we've all been teenagers who thought the hot band at the time was the greatest thing ever - but it is what it is. Most of them probably haven't seen even Bull/Alundra which I'm not sure is any worse than these NXT matches (the Raw match is terrible) and on Big Egg it stunk because of what it was sharing the stage with.

 

 

I'm as big of a Joshi fan as anyone else around these parts. The narrative that 90s Joshi, especially AJW, is untouchable and nothing can compare it to has always been false and is just as false today.

[KrisZ]

It's not great because it's a woman's match it's great because it's fucking great

[Codysseus]

It's a really special thing to have a rivalry between two wrestlers who play their roles so well weave together a simple story, build a ton of momentum, deliver when the big moment comes, and then surpass all expectations. I'm so, so impressed and happy to be a wrasslin' fan.

[goodhelmet]

I mentioned this on the reaction show but I really hated the MSG Curtain Call throwback at the end. If you have Bayley, Charlotte and Becky out there... cool. I love Sasha Banks the heel. Her two SummerSlam partners were in the first row. She shouldn't be throwing up Four Horsemen hand signals and acting like the match we just saw didn't mean shit because we're really just friends breaking the 4th wall bullshit. Sasha should have hugged her, held Bayley's destroyed hand high and then kicked her head off. Or she could have thrown a fit and destroyed the NXT title to pieces. Or she could call her teammates into the ring to beat down the faces who may or may not fight the heels off. I criticized HHH and Sting shaking it out at Mania and this was just as egregious.

[Grimmas]

How awesome would it be at SummerSlam if they do a turn that they put the 4 women together as the new Horsewomen and they turn on everybody else?

[donsem43]

They should have cut away and shown a SummerSlam hype package and kept that moment for Youtube. It was a great moment but it should not have been part of the show proper. Although in the future, with HHH in charge, stuff like this will be the norm when the situation calls for it.

[goodhelmet]

I want them to punish Sasha like HHH was punished in real life.