Reactions to the List: 100-51

[WingedEagle]

After Tito, today has kind of been a murderer's row of guys who were talented and maybe even great for a time, who also come across as badly exposed post footage explosion. I'd regard all of them as overrated on the list (though I don't really mind any of them making it) and would be interested to know how many posters here agree.

 

Strongly agree on all except Hase. While there seems to be a debate about his post-NJ work, have people soured on him due to the 80s NJPW set or from the yearbooks? A question about his peaks and top performances may meet some varied response, but I never got the sense that his rep has taken any kind of a hit from greater exposure.

[Badlittlekitten]

Fuck me, it's Hogan. Guy was a star wherever he went. He slots in here far nicer than goof of the week Cesaro.

[El-P]

Come on El P, you can badmouth him for a lot of things, but saying Hogan was a "terrible babyface" is like saying Charlie Chaplin was a terrible comedian.

 

No. it's been well established that Hogan kayfabe character was an asshole mistreating his friends and a whiny egomaniac bitch. There's a whole thread about this. Plus he was cheating his ass off and using shitty heel tactics (like scratching his opponent's back) despite being a colossus. It was so easy to agree with Jesse Ventura on color when he was pointing out how awful Hogan really was.

[Timbo Slice]

His rep hasn't, but to me, the more I watched, the more I saw who I thought were better than Hase. Basically all the Hase that is out there is out there, and I thought he was good, but didn't do anything that stood out to me in terms of all time status. He's a good worker though.

 

Atlantis the next to drop. Glad to see him make it to the Top 75.

[anarchistxx]

Fuck me, it's Hogan. Guy was a star wherever he went. He slots in here far nicer than goof of the week Cesaro.

 

Cesaro is one of the most glaring to me. A few hundred places too high. Really don't think his WWE work has been anything more than consistently solid and enjoyable, and his indie work is extremely average in comparison to his peers on the list.

[Timbo Slice]

Also, Hogan himself has said he just kept working heel as a babyface so I don't see it as some revelation that he was an asshole.

[El-P]

Although that may be a whacky French belief, I don't know.

 

I'll pass this time since I talked about "dumb american kids", but I usually don't appreciate essentialization. I guess you're refering to the fact Jerry Lewis was take seriously by the movie critics here. Well, as it should. Although I never understood why Jude Appatow was revered though. Anyway.

 

Hey, don't give me too much shit about Hogan. I said before that his work later on in WCW was much better than Flair's.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd rather talk to anarchistxx about our shared love of Hase.

[El-P]

Say how you really feel about Hogan, Parv.

[JerryvonKramer]

Say how you really feel about Hogan, Parv.

I hated Hogan as a kid, I was a heel fan through and through and used to get up in arms about his constant bullshit and fucking biased Jack Tunney coming down on his side on every single decision. Jesse spoke to me and my concerns directly.

 

Andre was screwed, twice. Ted was screwed, at least three times, and he STOLE his money. Savage was screwed. Hogan was a twat.

 

That's still how I really feel deep down

[goc]

Hogan taking the Million Dollar Man's money and redistributing it to gamblers at Ceaser's Palace helped usher in the "Third Way" of the Clinton years. His support of Brutus Beefcake through his injuries, and indeed in general, demonstrated his commitment to welfare reform in practice.

I don't usually do star ratings but this is a ***** post.

 

[WingedEagle]

Very strongly believe that "Hogan was awful" is as accurate as "Hogan was an all-time worker." Charisma, crowd pops and moments galore. Also one of the few names where it is probably impossible for most fans to look at him objectively, if that's even a goal. If you grew up watching WWF TV he holds a permanent place in your wrestling memories and development as a fan. On the other hand, Hogan as a top 10 all timer is some real stay away from drugs talk.

[Death From Above]

I had Hogan one slot ahead of John Cena.

[goc]

I voted for Atlantis but would admit he was a guy I probably watched less of than the rest of the lucha guys I ranked. It was like 3 singles matches (plus his stuff from the lucha set) He's probably the lucha guy I voted for that I feel the least connection to.

[goodhelmet]

I love that Hogan represents the Reagen-era 80s but Ric Flair was the true disciple of Reagan.

[Robert S]

(...)

 

I also believe he's one of the few Japanese guys with so much charisma that he could have easily made it in the US if given the chance -- I don't think it's any coincidence that NJ would ALWAYS send him to the WCW supershows. He just had that "X Factor". Fucking awesome little moustache too.

 

I could not agree more. The first time I saw him (back in 2000 watching 92 footage) I thought he looked (charisma-wise) like a Japanese version of the Rock (not just because Hase uses the Uranage).

[Badlittlekitten]

Don't think Atlantis should be above Chicana but kudos to him. I kinda hated his early work but he grew into a good techico worker. Love his flying spots that punctuate falls in trios and he has a good list of singles work. He's not the most charismatic worker but he's perfectly likeable.

[Grimmas]

Don't think Atlantis should be above Chicana but kudos to him. I kinda hated his early work but he grew into a good techico worker. Love his flying spots that punctuate falls in trios and he has a good list of singles work. He's not the most charismatic worker but he's perfectly likeable.

Lengths of awesomeness played a huye factor there.

[GOTNW]

I love Atlantis. I had him #28. His peak 80s and 90s stuff, the great apuestas matches he's had in recent years and his awesome rudo run in the mid 2000s were enough to earn him a high placement. Has some of my all time favourite lucha matches vs. El Satanico from 1984, the Blue Panther title matches from 1991 and 1997 (I would have to rewatch this one but I would have it pegged as a strong contender for best title match ever), the VIllano 3 apuestas match has been discussed plenty, the Kung Fu (no one loves this much as much as I do but screw it, it's an amazing shitkicking and Atlantis is an underrated brawler), Silver Fox,La Sombra Ultimo Guerrero apuestas matches...it's quite the resume. Last year CMLL did a Negro Casas/Shocker vs. Atlantis/Blue Panther tag match that was grapplefuck at its finest and I couldn't believe how great everyone looked in it.

[goc]

I think if we had as much footage of Chicana from the 80s as we do of Atlantis in the 90s or the 00s then Chicana would have finished higher.

[anarchistxx]

I love that Hogan represents the Reagen-era 80s but Ric Flair was the true disciple of Reagan.

 

Hogan represents the wholesome, moralistic, respectable facade of the 80s. Flair represents the sleazy, money hungry, decadent truth.

[goc]

Well at least Jericho is finally gone. At least 100 spots higher than he should be but oh well.

[Matt D]

It's not that I don't think that Jericho is better than Disco Inferno; it's that I'm just not sure.

[Badlittlekitten]

Atlantis sure does have the longevity. For me Chicana was at a level of blow away great that few others reach, even if it was a shortish stretch. Him and Hokuto made my top twenty-five for similar reasons.

[Loss]

Jericho is experiencing a career low at the moment, and I think that makes it easy to discard that he's had a terrific run in WWE. As I said on WWTP, his peaks as a star were rarely consistent with his peaks as a worker. I recently went through 2002-2005 Raw and found him to be the guy that was in some ways holding it all together -- as a babyface, as a heel, as a top star and as a midcarder, as both a singles wrestler and a tag wrestler. Watch the 2005 Elimination Chamber sometime (an underrated great match) and see just how much of that is in Jericho's hands. He gave Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, Scott Steiner and Goldberg their best early 00s WWE matches. He has weaknesses as a worker for sure and we all know what they are, but he managed to overcome that in a way that he became one of the premiere output guys in WWE history. I do feel like he never quite found a way to project himself as a star at the level everyone hoped for, but he did become arguably the best utility player the company has ever had, working up and down the card with everyone who has come down the pike in the last 15+ years. The ultimate jack of all trades, master of none.