Reactions to the List: 25-11

[WingedEagle]

I definitely voted Casas well below his average and almost assuredly where he'd rank if I'd seen enough of him. But I haven't seen enough of him. Hell of a fan club he has. I don't quite want to say I "don't get" lucha but something there doesn't click the way it should yet, as there are highly touted matches or wrestlers that won't move the needle for me at all.

Casas always does, but we're at the point where he's a tremendously consistent worker in my eyes, but has yet to have those classics that jump off the screen at me, other than the Dandy match in '92.

 

In many ways that made him analogous to an Arn or Regal when putting together my list, which placed a lot of weight on all-time performances. That's the area where Arn & Regal came up a bit short, but there are always exceptions that prove the rule, and those exceptions are Anderson and Regal. Back to Casas -- I'm looking forward to more. Maybe with a metric ton of similarly consistent good to very good footage (which from everything I've seen and read sounds undeniable) hell skyrocket up my list. Or perhaps none of it will stand out beyond good to very good. But looking forward to it nonetheless.

[WingedEagle]

May be time for a Bret v. The World thread after GWE

 

[GOTNW]

Casas's rating confirms this list isn't really any better than the 2006 one. It just has a different bias that kind of validates all the shit I talked about it before.

[Mr. Lacelle]

Some of you can be whiny little bitches if not everyone agrees with your list. The people have spoken, this is the definitive list.

[concrete1992]

Some of you can be whiny little bitches if not everyone agrees with your list. The people have spoken, this is the definitive list.

Kiss my grits

[Bierschwale]

Hash was my #2. A little shocking only one guy had him at #1. He is THE japanese wrestler in my eyes.

 

Of my several dozens of laments on not getting in a ballot, I can say that I'd also have put him #2.

 

I'd have had Casas... above where he finished but not by a tremendous margin. For some reason, I'm going to instinctively say one spot ahead of Jun so maybe #12?

[JKWebb]

I said exceptionally solid.

 

I worded that more carefully than I did my defense of Bret.

 

Man, I hoped Casas would make it to the top 20 but I'm glad that lots of people discovered him and enjoyed him so thoroughly. I just hope Bock doesn't drop next.

Please let Bock hit the top 10....

[fxnj]

Is it possible that, perhaps, maybe, while the WWE style is viewed as the absolute worst thing to ever happen to wrestling by many here, that some people like it? And maybe it's possible that some people still like it even after exposing themselves to lucha, Japan, WoS etc. etc. etc. ?

I'd be more sympathetic to this view of the common point brought up by folks in these threads explaining why they left off some heavily pimped guys in those styles wasn't just "I never got around to the footage." As it is I have a hard time seeing how it can be denied that there wasn't a significant portion of voters influencing the results who are mostly unfamiliar with wrestling outside the US mainstream.

[Loss]

Casas is the first ranking to truly bother me, especially considering some of the guys who will fall higher and have no business doing so. But I still think the only thing anyone can reasonably expect is that some people watch some wrestling they wouldn't have watched if not for this project, that some future journeys are inspired as a result of the project and that we each make individual lists that we can live with. The countdown is fun, but to me, it's like a potluck where everyone brings their favorite dishes from around the world and then we throw them all in a blender. It's fun to see what turns up simply as a matter of curiosity, but trying to digest that is only going to give you heartburn.

[concrete1992]

Casas is the first ranking to truly bother me, especially considering some of the guys who will fall higher and have no business doing so. But I still think the only thing anyone can reasonably expect is that some people watch some wrestling they wouldn't have watched if not for this project, that some future journeys are inspired as a result of the project and that we each make individual lists that we can live with. The countdown is fun, but to me, it's like a potluck where everyone brings their favorite dishes from around the world and then we throw them all in a blender. It's fun to see what turns up simply as a matter of curiosity, but trying to digest that is only going to give you heartburn.

I'm ready for a different journey right now.

[Dylan Waco]

Some of you can be whiny little bitches if not everyone agrees with your list. The people have spoken, this is the definitive list.

Hilarious for multiple reasons

[Microstatistics]

Well that was anticlimatic. Maybe I just fooled myself into thinking Casas could finish in the Top 10.

 

But the fact that 48% of the people who ranked him had him in their Top 10 is pretty impressive. He was my #4

[GOTNW]

 

 

I'm not 100% sure I've heard an exceptionally solid defense of Bret yet, and that's including my own.

My podcast with Tim.

 

 

By the way, that was just the hardest reveal I had to do yet. The 4 people who considered lucha and did not vote for Casas are insane

 

 

He said solid

 

He set up an Asai Moonsault well, fifth best wrestler of all time.

 

[goc]

Hope Lawler drops next so I can stop paying attention.

[WingedEagle]

My view from the beginning is that the list that mattered then and now is my list, and would hope others view things the same way. Would already change a few things there on the back end, but I like most of the top quite a bit based on what I have / haven't viewed. I think the best thing that can be said about the "comprehensive" list is that no one seems thrilled with it. Seriously.

[Cap]

It is unfortunate that this is upsetting people so much. I came late to the board and didn't vote, but just keeping up and thinking that I might turned me on to a ton of new wrestling and has me excited to view a lot more. There was so much talk of bias and the myriad reasons people might vote, so much discussion about the process. I guess I am a little surprised at how shocked some people are, especially after seeing how many ballots there were. That said, I know a lot of people have invested a lot of time and energy into this (and I am pretty grateful for it), so I guess frustration is natural. I just hope 10 years is long enough for people to forget how angry (or disappointment or however they describe it) they are.

[WingedEagle]

It is unfortunate that this is upsetting people so much. I came late to the board and didn't vote, but just keeping up and thinking that I might turned me on to a ton of new wrestling and has me excited to view a lot more.

 

That's all that matters. Lot of complaining, head shaking, and bewilderment -- on my part as well -- but at the end of the day its about the journey for all of us. Hopefully one that hasn't concluded and sees our own individual list as a rest stop.

[concrete1992]

It is unfortunate that this is upsetting people so much. I came late to the board and didn't vote, but just keeping up and thinking that I might turned me on to a ton of new wrestling and has me excited to view a lot more. There was so much talk of bias and the myriad reasons people might vote, so much discussion about the process. I guess I am a little surprised at how shocked some people are, especially after seeing how many ballots there were. That said, I know a lot of people have invested a lot of time and energy into this (and I am pretty grateful for it), so I guess frustration is natural. I just hope 10 years is long enough for people to forget how angry (or disappointment or however they describe it) they are.

So we can get angry and disappointed all over again.

[kjh]

Lucha was always going to be shafted in the poll, especially at the top end.

[KB8]

My view from the beginning is that the list that mattered then and now is my list, and would hope others view things the same way. Would already change a few things there on the back end, but I like most of the top quite a bit based on what I have / haven't viewed. I think the best thing that can be said about the "comprehensive" list is that no one seems thrilled with it. Seriously.

 

I don't think it's possible to do something like this and have everyone come out the other side of it completely happy with the overall list, anyway.

 

The only comprehensive list I'd be satisfied with is one that I compiled myself after watching every piece of available wrestling footage known to man

 

So yeah, "the journey" and all that. Of course I wanted Casas to finish top 3 and for Fujiwara, Satanico and Hashimoto to finish top 10. But part of the reason I wanted that - and for people like Mariko Yoshida, Hector Guerrero and La Fiera to do really well - is because I came to the conclusions I came to on those folks during this whole process. My top 20 honestly didn't end up being THAT different to what it would've been before the project started, but those twenty guys were certainly solidified as being fucking transcendently great in my mind over the last couple years. My bottom sixty was where I felt like things were turned upside down, and I mean that in the absolute best way possible. If not for this project I probably wouldn't have dived into a lot of those guys' work to the extent I did. Someone would've asked me if the Tonga Kid or Tekeshi Ono is one of the top 100 wrestlers ever and I'd probably have said "almost certainly not." This project showed me that I was dead fucking wrong and that the correct answer to the question is "you better believe Tama and Takeshi Ono are top 100 wrestlers ever!" And, like, we all have our Tamas and Takeshi Onos now that we're at the end of this, right?

[Cap]

 

It is unfortunate that this is upsetting people so much. I came late to the board and didn't vote, but just keeping up and thinking that I might turned me on to a ton of new wrestling and has me excited to view a lot more. There was so much talk of bias and the myriad reasons people might vote, so much discussion about the process. I guess I am a little surprised at how shocked some people are, especially after seeing how many ballots there were. That said, I know a lot of people have invested a lot of time and energy into this (and I am pretty grateful for it), so I guess frustration is natural. I just hope 10 years is long enough for people to forget how angry (or disappointment or however they describe it) they are.

So we can get angry and disappointed all over again.

 

I suppose remembering that the process itself was fun and valuable and picking up some perspective on what can actually be accomplished by the final list (presuming you don't just want an invited group of 20 people or so) is probably out of the question.

 

I am not trying to be snarky, but for those who are genuinely disappointment by all this maybe just privately inviting the folk you really respect and know to bring their lists together would be helpful. Maybe that would provide the more fulfilling and maybe even more rigorous results some people are looking for.

[Exposer]

I'm shocked Casas made it as high as he did to be honest. I think it's foolish to think he ever would have gotten into the Top 20. I mean his placement is an absolute shame. Complete bullshit. But I expected it.

[funkdoc]

i think for a lot of people, the results are just a proxy for the amount of effort put in by the masses. they were hoping others would explore more unfamiliar styles the way they did, and some of these results don't really suggest that.

[goodhelmet]

Casas, Regal and Fujinami back to back to back really hurts. I had all 3 in my Top 11.

[Grimmas]

i think for a lot of people, the results are just a proxy for the amount of effort put in by the masses. they were hoping others would explore more unfamiliar styles the way they did, and some of these results don't really suggest that.

Look at the jumps buddy, fujinama, Lawler etc. Made though, obviously it played a role.