Your most "Against The Grain" opinion on wrestling

[NintendoLogic]

I find World of Sport mostly unwatchable. I can get into guys like Terry Rudge and Marty Jones who weren't afraid to mix it up, but the purely mat-based stuff is like watching paint dry unless it's spiced up with some Johnny Saint razzle-dazzle.

 

I also dislike Michinoku Pro immensely. Most people would agree that impressive highspots alone don't make a match great, but for me, it goes beyond that. Flips and dives and the like are actively detrimental to my enjoyment of a match. When I watch wrestling, I want to see something that bears some semblance to a real fight, and midget gymnastics combined with comedy emphatically does not fit the bill.

[joeg]

I agree with a lot of things said so far. When worlds collide was overrated. Bobby Eaton is overrated. TM is underrated as is Takada. Shane Douglas was the man circa 1996. Mauro Ranallo sucks at everything he does. Those are the ones I agree with.

 

Somethings that haven't been said- Kobashi was better at selling limb work than Kawada or Misawa.

 

The Super J Cup was overrated. I'm not even sure the finals or semis were the two best matches on that day, in Tokyo, let alone two of the best matches of 1994.

 

Raven was the best heel of the 90s.

 

Fans under estimate workers athleticism. Fans look at a guy like Necro Butcher or Taue and think those guys aren't athletic. Bullshit. If any internet fan tried to do half the "unathletic spots" that a Kevin Nash does that same internet fan would break his fucking hip.

 

Heels should not do moonsaults. To me this is common sense. In the old days there were heel moves and baby face moves. So why are heels now doing flashy moves

 

It takes a long time to really understand what is going on in Lucha libre. It is like learning a new language

 

Old school guys who worked to get themselves over can be a lot of fun. I.e. Inoki, Mascaras, Brody,etc. Just because they didn't have many good matches didn't mean they weren't workers. They worked to get themselves over which they did thius they were good workers.

[goc]

Old school guys who worked to get themselves over can be a lot of fun. I.e. Inoki, Mascaras, Brody,etc. Just because they didn't have many good matches didn't mean they weren't workers. They worked to get themselves over which they did thius they were good workers.

This made me think that I do have an against the grain opinion and it's that Mil Mascaras is pretty good and not even close to as bad as the prevailing opinion makes him out to be. I think most of the "Mascaras sucks" stuff mostly just comes from people parroting old wrestlers like Mick Foley who are mad that Mascaras didn't give them much when they wrestled him. The footage of him in Houston from NWA On Demand is way more good than bad. I haven't seen a lot of his stuff from Japan but the Tenryu match is awesome and so are the matches against The Destroyer.

[El-P]

This thread has totally spiraled out of control into insane contrarianism, snobish trolling and revisionnism (among some good points made). Poor guys wanting to put a podcast ouf of this.

[ohtani's jacket]

I find World of Sport mostly unwatchable. I can get into guys like Terry Rudge and Marty Jones who weren't afraid to mix it up, but the purely mat-based stuff is like watching paint dry unless it's spiced up with some Johnny Saint razzle-dazzle.

 

I also dislike Michinoku Pro immensely. Most people would agree that impressive highspots alone don't make a match great, but for me, it goes beyond that. Flips and dives and the like are actively detrimental to my enjoyment of a match. When I watch wrestling, I want to see something that bears some semblance to a real fight, and midget gymnastics combined with comedy emphatically does not fit the bill.

 

These two paragraphs utterly contradict one another.

[GOTNW]

Why would a Jumbo or a Mascaras work more than six minutes with this random fat goof? Guy almost killed himself taking stupid bumps, you can hear brain damage any time he opens his mouth and I've had to listen to how he's this master storyteller ever since I started watching wrestling. Is the "it's ok to nearly or actually kill yourself doing stupid stuff if you know how to sell" legacy of Danielson/Misawa/Foley really something to brag about? Not to mention what a tough spot it puts everyone following him, especially when WWE does so much to cannonize those moments while hypocritically talking about how their matches are conducted in a safe environment.

[C.S.]

This thread has totally spiraled out of control into insane contrarianism, snobish trolling and revisionnism (among some good points made). Poor guys wanting to put a podcast ouf of this.

 

Not my posts, of course.

 

But don't worry, I'm pretty sure the OP posts to several boards and picks and chooses which responses to use.

[JaymeFuture]

I do, but I love the discussion it starts, and there are so many things to talk about we're probably going to do a couple of shows covering as much of it as we can...

[Dooley]

I unironically like Sid.

 

Dude looks like was designed in the "Create a wrestler" section of a video game. He had an aura about him that is difficult to match. One of my favourite all-time entrances. His promos are actually pretty underrated, everyone likes to remember the two famous fuck-ups, but going back and watching them they were a lot more focused than people give him credit for. Even stuff like the cartoony "crush crush crush!" promo from KOTR '95 makes me smile. His squash matches were hella fun and his bigger match offerings showed that he could follow if not lead. There were some stinkers to be sure, but I'm not a big "workrate" guy anyway.

[Ryan Faulconer]

 

This thread has totally spiraled out of control into insane contrarianism, snobish trolling and revisionnism (among some good points made). Poor guys wanting to put a podcast ouf of this.

 

Not my posts, of course.

 

But don't worry, I'm pretty sure the OP posts to several boards and picks and chooses which responses to use.

 

Posters should have these opinions next to their name in their forum profile. It would save people a lot of time and energy whenever threads get gridlocked with opinions that are never going to change. Most of these reactions were a lot more relevant back in the early 2000s than they are now. The size of the pwo/dvdvr/WKO/VOW/PWP/etc type of fan is so varied now. Any consensus opinion isn't anywhere near the influence that it would have held back when all we had was RSPW/tOA/DVDVR or the small groups that grew out of them.

[funkdoc]

 

 

This thread has totally spiraled out of control into insane contrarianism, snobish trolling and revisionnism (among some good points made). Poor guys wanting to put a podcast ouf of this.

 

Not my posts, of course.

 

But don't worry, I'm pretty sure the OP posts to several boards and picks and chooses which responses to use.

 

Posters should have these opinions next to their name in their forum profile. It would save people a lot of time and energy whenever threads get gridlocked with opinions that are never going to change. Most of these reactions were a lot more relevant back in the early 2000s than they are now. The size of the pwo/dvdvr/WKO/VOW/PWP/etc type of fan is so varied now. Any consensus opinion isn't anywhere near the influence that it would have held back when all we had was RSPW/tOA/DVDVR or the small groups that grew out of them.

 

 

also twitter, which has now developed its own unique smart-fan scene. a bunch of the people who registered here for GWE seem to just hang around there these days...

[NintendoLogic]

 

I find World of Sport mostly unwatchable. I can get into guys like Terry Rudge and Marty Jones who weren't afraid to mix it up, but the purely mat-based stuff is like watching paint dry unless it's spiced up with some Johnny Saint razzle-dazzle.

 

I also dislike Michinoku Pro immensely. Most people would agree that impressive highspots alone don't make a match great, but for me, it goes beyond that. Flips and dives and the like are actively detrimental to my enjoyment of a match. When I watch wrestling, I want to see something that bears some semblance to a real fight, and midget gymnastics combined with comedy emphatically does not fit the bill.

 

These two paragraphs utterly contradict one another.

 

 

How so?

[ohtani's jacket]

When I watch wrestling, I want to see something that bears some semblance to a real fight, and midget gymnastics combined with comedy emphatically does not fit the bill.

 

 

...the purely mat-based stuff is like watching paint dry unless it's spiced up with some Johnny Saint razzle-dazzle.

 

 

The mat-based stuff bears at least some semblance to a real fight, and Saint was a short guy who did gymnastics combined with comedy.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

 

This thread has totally spiraled out of control into insane contrarianism, snobish trolling and revisionnism (among some good points made). Poor guys wanting to put a podcast ouf of this.

 

Not my posts, of course.

 

But don't worry, I'm pretty sure the OP posts to several boards and picks and chooses which responses to use.

Posters should have these opinions next to their name in their forum profile. It would save people a lot of time and energy whenever threads get gridlocked with opinions that are never going to change. Most of these reactions were a lot more relevant back in the early 2000s than they are now. The size of the pwo/dvdvr/WKO/VOW/PWP/etc type of fan is so varied now. Any consensus opinion isn't anywhere near the influence that it would have held back when all we had was RSPW/tOA/DVDVR or the small groups that grew out of them.

also twitter, which has now developed its own unique smart-fan scene. a bunch of the people who registered here for GWE seem to just hang around there these days...

Don't pretend even for half a second that this is a good thing.

[NintendoLogic]

 

When I watch wrestling, I want to see something that bears some semblance to a real fight, and midget gymnastics combined with comedy emphatically does not fit the bill.

 

 

...the purely mat-based stuff is like watching paint dry unless it's spiced up with some Johnny Saint razzle-dazzle.

 

 

The mat-based stuff bears at least some semblance to a real fight, and Saint was a short guy who did gymnastics combined with comedy.

 

 

I didn't say I liked Saint, just that I find him more tolerable than most WoS. If I had to pick, I'd rather be annoyed than bored to tears.

[C.S.]

Bobby Eaton is crazily overrated in these parts. Somewhere along the line he seems to have become the poster boy for 'Smarks appreciating the underappreciated' and it's gotten totally out of control. Someone who was never a star, never a draw and not an influence being voted the 28th greatest wrestler in history is lunacy. I wouldn't even call him a worker who stands out from the crowd.

Mountain News WYMT: "Beautiful" Bobby Eaton reportedly missing

[jdw]

Bobby Eaton is crazily overrated in these parts. Somewhere along the line he seems to have become the poster boy for 'Smarks appreciating the underappreciated' and it's gotten totally out of control. Someone who was never a star, never a draw and not an influence being voted the 28th greatest wrestler in history is lunacy. I wouldn't even call him a worker who stands out from the crowd.

 

Eliminate the word "these parts". He's been highly rated by hardcore fans since the mid-80s when hardcore fandom was invented. That's like two decades before "these parts".

[WingedEagle]

Apparently Eaton has gone missing the last 24 hours. Hopefully he's found soon and safe.

[raul]

Apparently Eaton has gone missing the last 24 hours. Hopefully he's found soon and safe.

 

jeez wrestling fans are brutal. do they not want him found?

[ohtani's jacket]

 

 

When I watch wrestling, I want to see something that bears some semblance to a real fight, and midget gymnastics combined with comedy emphatically does not fit the bill.

 

 

...the purely mat-based stuff is like watching paint dry unless it's spiced up with some Johnny Saint razzle-dazzle.

 

 

The mat-based stuff bears at least some semblance to a real fight, and Saint was a short guy who did gymnastics combined with comedy.

 

 

I didn't say I liked Saint, just that I find him more tolerable than most WoS. If I had to pick, I'd rather be annoyed than bored to tears.

 

 

You're bored by something unless it annoys you? Does that awake you from your apathy? Snarkiness aside, mat-based stuff is probably less than one third of WoS.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

 

 

 

When I watch wrestling, I want to see something that bears some semblance to a real fight, and midget gymnastics combined with comedy emphatically does not fit the bill.

...the purely mat-based stuff is like watching paint dry unless it's spiced up with some Johnny Saint razzle-dazzle.

 

The mat-based stuff bears at least some semblance to a real fight, and Saint was a short guy who did gymnastics combined with comedy.

I didn't say I liked Saint, just that I find him more tolerable than most WoS. If I had to pick, I'd rather be annoyed than bored to tears.

You're bored by something unless it annoys you? Does that awake you from your apathy? Snarkiness aside, mat-based stuff is probably less than one third of WoS.

They do a lot of head tosses, counters, evasions, escapes, rolls and things of that nature.

 

The limb work differs greatly from NJPW-style or US-60s style. Seems more centred on attacking joints to me, and very seldom do they lay in a hold.

 

I think there is a heightened sense of trickery in WoS.

 

However, I find the suggestion that it is "realistic" laughable. It isn't; as pro wrestling at its best never is. WoS just has a different absurd logic from the absurd logics found in US wrestling, Puro, and lesser forms such as Lucha or modern indie.

[Matt D]

What it has, I think, is a very visceral sense of "Sport" in how it's presented. That goes from the round system, to the strategies in matches, to weight classes and title contention, to Kent Walton talking about the other jobs the wrestlers have when not wrestling. Yes, it has its own folds and wrinkles but someone like Marty Jones is able to create a "real sport feel" as well as any wrestler I've ever seen, especially when he's up against other babyfaces.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

 

 

 

When I watch wrestling, I want to see something that bears some semblance to a real fight, and midget gymnastics combined with comedy emphatically does not fit the bill.

...the purely mat-based stuff is like watching paint dry unless it's spiced up with some Johnny Saint razzle-dazzle.

 

The mat-based stuff bears at least some semblance to a real fight, and Saint was a short guy who did gymnastics combined with comedy.

I didn't say I liked Saint, just that I find him more tolerable than most WoS. If I had to pick, I'd rather be annoyed than bored to tears.

You're bored by something unless it annoys you? Does that awake you from your apathy? Snarkiness aside, mat-based stuff is probably less than one third of WoS.

They do a lot of head tosses, counters, evasions, escapes, rolls and things of that nature.

 

The limb work differs greatly from NJPW-style or US-60s style. Seems more centred on attacking joints to me, and very seldom do they lay in a hold.

 

I think there is a heightened sense of trickery in WoS.

 

However, I find the suggestion that it is "realistic" laughable. It isn't; as pro wrestling at its best never is. WoS just has a different absurd logic from the absurd logics found in US wrestling, Puro, and lesser forms such as Lucha or modern indie.

 

 

We were talking about having "some semblance to a real fight" not being realistic. The mat-based stuff that NintendoLogic was referring to has more semblance to a real fight (or sport) than Michinoku Pro. But those pure wrestling contests, and indeed the building blocks of the Lord Mount-Evans Rules (http://www.wrestlingfurnace.com/formalities/holds/holds.htm), isn't really the cornerstone of post 60s WoS. I wish it were, but it's not. Nevertheless, there were plenty of great workers from the late 70s and early 80s that worked a more contemporary style. Sadly, the style ended becoming "Americanised" from that point on (for lack of a better word) and lost its unique character.

[elliott]

Some WWE related against the grain opinions.

 

Daniel Bryan vs John Cena is the best WWE match ever.

 

Aside from the two famous matches against Austin, I think Bret vs Roddy Piper from WM 8 is the best match of Bret Hart's career.

 

Rockers vs Haku & Barbarian WM VII was the best tag match in WM history.

 

Brock vs Reigns is the best match in WrestleMania history.

 

The first Survivor Series is an all time great PPV. At worst its in the top 20.

 

The Rock was a great wrestler.

 

If not Hulk Hogan, then Dusty Rhodes.

 

HHH was always right about Jericho

[Al]

Bobby Eaton was pudgy, pasty, had a mullet and wasn't a particularly good promo. That he was given multiple titles in multiple promotions should tell you what kind of worker he was.