WWE Clash of the Champions

[Alucard]

 

As much as I love Zayn, it pains me to agree with goc - he's brought none of the magic from NXT with him. Part of that is WWE booking him as "just another guy" randomly all over the card. There's no progress with him. One minute he's in I-C matches or grudge feuds with Owen, the next minute he's in a JTTS team with Neville.

I don't hate Zayn the way I can't stand guys like Rollins and Ziggler I just don't "get" him. Nothing I've seen from him in WWE says he's anything more than "just another guy." There are plenty of guys who manage to stand out despite shitty booking either in a "this guy is a great character" way like Rusev or by always putting on a good match like Cesaro or Sheamus.

 

Sami Zayn doesn't do either and I feel like if he was "the best babyface in wrestling" the way some people hype him up as then there would actually be some evidence of it in the past 6 months or so instead of having to point way back to his NXT run.

 

 

Agreed 100% with this and the first post on the subject. Always found the overrated "best babyface" stuff to be a ridiculous exaggeration, never saw him as anything special.

[El-P]

I still fail to see how Roman Reigns is considered by some as some kind of special worker. He sure didn't brought much special to the table in the Rusev match, it was all Rusev keeping things together and feeding for Roman usual dull superman punches comebacks. Plus he's not a great seller or bumper, so Rusev beating on him was nothing special. He's a decent power guy with a bad spear. He doesn't do anything that remotely sparks my interest. Rusev & Lana should be in the main event scene yesterday.

 

Didn't watch the entire thing (I guess I missed something with Cesaro vs Sheamus, but Sheamus I have no time for). Really, that tag match needed fast forward, the New Day have jumped the shark a long tile ago and Doc & Anderson aren't anything special.

 

The female trio match booking was odd. Charlotte basically beat up the two babyfaces clean. I like the Sasha/Sabu comparison someone made. Good match, but clusterfucky as every thriple way are. Jericho vs Zayn was cool. Sleazy old Jericho works for me. At some point during this match Philippe Chereau cracked me up so bad. The french announcing is a show saver sometimes.

 

TJ Perkins vs Brian Kendrick was good, but I'm not too fond of some Perkins indieriffic spots, with odd body placements and useless bumping-on-offense kinda spots. I don't think this cruiserweight division is going anywhere, but the purple lightning was a nice touch in term of presentation.

[Grimmas]

 

Zayn vs. Jericho

 

Rarely impressed by these two and tonight was no exception. Perhaps we're getting the Jericho face turn and title match with Owens at Survivor Series in Canada, which actually sounds promising as a one-off. Zayn seems to have a few spots in every match where he goofs in a manner that screams at you how planned everything is and this was no exception. Feel like he needs to be in whatever amounts to a blood feud in WWE these days rather than relying on flippy spots that don't seem his strong suit.

Zayn has not been very impressive since he's come to the main roster and I'm baffled by why so many people still cry about him being "wasted" or "buried" like he should be a permanent fixture of the main event. I struggle to think of any really impressive TV match that Zayn has had since he's come to the main roster while a guy like Sheamus is always churning out good matches to zero fanfare outside of some people on this board. I didn't even really care for the Owens matches which everyone would probably point to as Zayn's best stuff on the main roster.

 

When a great wrestler looks unimpressive in a promotion, I blame the promotion not the wrestler.

[Matt D]

I think it's possible to control for booking to some degree.

 

Take a look at some of Sami's bigger matches in NXT and on the main roster, breakdown what he does to garner sympathy and get the crowd behind him in both settings. Compare, Contrast, and note the effectiveness of it all. Is he wrestling differently on the main roster than he was in NXT? Should he be? Etc.

 

Breaking down matches is what we do. I think we can get at this better than just shouting "He was never that good in the first place!" and "They're just using him poorly!" at each other.

[WingedEagle]

 

 

Zayn vs. Jericho

 

Rarely impressed by these two and tonight was no exception. Perhaps we're getting the Jericho face turn and title match with Owens at Survivor Series in Canada, which actually sounds promising as a one-off. Zayn seems to have a few spots in every match where he goofs in a manner that screams at you how planned everything is and this was no exception. Feel like he needs to be in whatever amounts to a blood feud in WWE these days rather than relying on flippy spots that don't seem his strong suit.

Zayn has not been very impressive since he's come to the main roster and I'm baffled by why so many people still cry about him being "wasted" or "buried" like he should be a permanent fixture of the main event. I struggle to think of any really impressive TV match that Zayn has had since he's come to the main roster while a guy like Sheamus is always churning out good matches to zero fanfare outside of some people on this board. I didn't even really care for the Owens matches which everyone would probably point to as Zayn's best stuff on the main roster.

 

When a great wrestler looks unimpressive in a promotion, I blame the promotion not the wrestler.

 

 

I'm not sure I think Zayn is all that great. I think he's had some great and really fun matches in both ROH & PWG, but hasn't been anything spectacular in NXT or WWE outside of the Nakamura match. Very good at times, sloppy and mediocre at others. Even with all of that, there's the point below.

 

I think it's possible to control for booking to some degree.

 

Take a look at some of Sami's bigger matches in NXT and on the main roster, breakdown what he does to garner sympathy and get the crowd behind him in both settings. Compare, Contrast, and note the effectiveness of it all. Is he wrestling differently on the main roster than he was in NXT? Should he be? Etc.

 

Breaking down matches is what we do. I think we can get at this better than just shouting "He was never that good in the first place!" and "They're just using him poorly!" at each other.

 

Its not very helpful to immediately blame promotion or wrestler in such a situation. Both may or may not be responsible. Outside of the debut against Cena last year, arguably the return against Owens early this year and the build to the Nakamura match, I'm not sure he's been put in a position to shine as an attraction. But he has had a number of lengthy singles matches against workers up and down the roster, as well as a slew of multi man affairs and more often than not have found these matches and his performances generally haven't been all that special.

 

The Owens Battleground match is probably my favorite of his this year. That match had a lot more intensity as well as big, loud performances and psychology. Did he just click that night or did they simply take the shackles off for that lone occasion? I don't know the answer, but he has had the diverse opponents and enough time in the ring where you'd think he could deliver above his booking and slotting unless he and his opponents are regularly instructed not to heat up the crowd too much.

[Grimmas]

Are people forgetting how great the Cesaro-Zayn series was? Even the Owens-Zayn matches in NXT were MOTYC compared to never hitting that level in the WWE.

[Matt D]

I'm not forgetting. I just want people to break things down and compare/contrast specifics. Enlightenment era fake pro wrestling pseudo science is what we do best.

[goc]

I don't see how pointing to some good matches Zayn had in NXT is supposed to be evidence that it's all WWE's fault he hasn't had a very good run so far in WWE. Being a great week to week wrestler is a very different thing from being able to have a great match when all the spotlight is on you and you're given a bunch of time.

 

Being able to have a good TV match that's only going to go between 6-9 minutes is also a fairly important part of being a WWE wrestler. If the takeaway is supposed to be "WWE is fucking up Zayn because he's only really good when he's given a chance to have an epic match" then I see that more as a fault in Zayn than with WWE.

[sek69]

Well it could be that WWE has a crippling inability to book babyfaces properly, and Zayn's strength is that he's a really great babyface.

[DMJ]

Just posted my review over on my blog.

 

As others said - not a terrible show (in fact, I don't think there was an outright bad match on the card), but just not one I'd consider worth sitting through, especially if you're someone who likes their wrestling with clear winners and losers and clear heroes and villains.

[Superstar Sleeze]

So I am right before the main event now...quick thoughts...

 

New Day/Club was an awesome bomb throwing sprint. Great urgency and everything was about winning from the get go. Best New Day match in a year. ****

 

Perkins/Kendrick started fine but became way too much gymnastics. ***

 

Sheamus/Cesaro is why I am a pro wrestling fan. Match #2 was the best match of the series, but this was pretty friggin awesome. I hope this leads to a Sheamus/Cesaro heel tag team that runs roughshod on RAW like a modern day Road Warriors (a tag team that can main event) ****

 

I drink in the Gift of Jericho, MMMAAAAAANNNNNNN when he is on the mic, but when he is wrestling I zone out. I have been really agreeing with Winged Eagle...Zayn needs to be the WWE equivalent of a blood feud.

 

Women's triple threat was great, another **** affair on a very good card. Call me crazy, but Charlotte is the best womens wrestler on RAW. Banks is "all flash, no cash" (thanks Charlotte). Charlotte is way smoother in the ring now, works awesome control segments and was totally directing traffic. I feel like Banks has really retrogressed. Becky is still best woman on the roster, but Charlotte is closing the gap.

 

Reigns/Rusev that hot brawl at Summerslam got me excited, but this was just a very good RAW match in fact the real RAW match from August was better than this. I am a huge Reigns fan, but winning the US Champion feels like a step backwards. They really ought to turn him heel. Should have stuck with him Hunter/Steph, cant beat him, join em deal.
***1/2

 

Ok, main event time, here we go...

[Coffey]

I'm not sure I think Zayn is all that great. I think he's had some great and really fun matches in both ROH & PWG, but hasn't been anything spectacular in NXT or WWE outside of the Nakamura match. Very good at times, sloppy and mediocre at others. Even with all of that, there's the point below.

 

 

This is where I am at with Sasha Banks. She had a couple good matches in NXT but the hyperbole over her was out of control. I like Sasha and think she can be great but I didn't think she was already great and it felt like quite a few people had already crowned her.

[Superstar Sleeze]

Awesome individual Kevin Owens performance. Great control segment on knee and trash talking. Great cutoff coming back to knee. Looked like an ass with Suck It and then missing the senton on the table. He was not that great at making Rollins shine, but heel bumping, stooging and heel selling is a lost art. Still a great Owens performance. Rollins has horrible instincts. I really thought turning him face would make him great. He has great babyface offense when he really turns it on. The shine was lukewarm. Then after all that knee work he does his KENTA million miles per hour tribute. They do this AJPW sequence with a Package Piledriver attempt, high knee, superkick, enziguiri. In AJPW that would have taken a minute with all the struggle, this was done in 10 seconds. When he should speed up, he does not and when he should slow down he speeds up.

 

Finish run after the senton was a ton of fun. The Gift of Jericho, Drink It In, MMMAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNN! He should be Owens' full time manager. Nothing Ill ever want to watch again, but hey I have think I have totally come around on Kevin Owens so that's a plus. ***1/2

[Cap]

I thought this was a really really good show. It did lack a little overall in finishes, but it wasn't a real negative because I thought (with the exception of maybe the Cesaro/Seamus match) that the finishes made sense for where they are in the storylines.

 

New Day vs Club was a lot of fun, their best match together pretty clearly to me. I was pretty surprised they didn't go with the Club winning here, but I like long title runs and I still don't think they have run out of steam. I liked how the Club came in looking like they were ahead of the game here. The New Day comeback spots seemed more unique and meaningful because of pacey offense they were taking early.

 

The Zayn/Jericho match was somewhat forgetable to me. I don't think it was actively bad, but it didn't hold my attention much. I agree with the idea that Zayn needs a real blood fued that isn't Owens. I could watch them wrestle forever, but Zayn needs a true, dominant heel to work against and have a long run comeback against (rusev or Seamus or a post full heel turn Reigns come to mind).

 

Cesaro vs Seamus was match of the night to me. I thought they were absolutely ON. The whole match looked good and they were laying into each other, great hass battle. The spill Cesaro took could have wound up being a horror show. he looked legit surprised he was ok. I didn't LOVE the finish. i thought giving this to Cesaro made too much sense and having a best of seven with no payoff is sort of counterproductive, but they are thinking outside the box, clearly trying something new I think. I am ok with it.

 

Cruisers - I love Kendrick and don't think he can do anything wrong. This was good, for sure. I liked it a lot.

 

I want to rewatch the Women's title match. I was sort of doing stuff around the house during part of this and even rewound it a few times because I knew I was missing a good match. I just don't have a clear picture of it overall, but it was solid in all the places I did see it.

 

Rusev vs Reigns. I love this feud. Rusev is so good it is unreal right now. He and Reigns have good chemistry and can throw their heavy artillery at each other in a believable way. I think they need a good epic to finish the feud. This was a really nice brawl where they could throw the kitchen sink at each other, but it felt restrained in a way. It felt like a middle chapter. I am not a huge fan of Reigns getting the strap, but again, I am ok with it. I can see it being a good way for him to build some momentum while not being in the title picture. It sucks that Rusev had to lose the belt though. Rusev as US champ is just the best.

 

I also need to go back to the main event, but I quite liked what I was seeing. It felt like a PWO main event had a baby with a WWE main event and I was into it. Again, I didn't see quite enough to get a full picture so I'll rewatch it soon. The interference was fine actually. I love the Owens/Jericho connection and I think its really adding a lot to Owen's reign without making it a joke. I don't buy that he is the least important person in the story. I buy him as the young bully champion who isn't as good as he says or thinks, but is still pretty damn good. Sure he is a pawn in a variety of other games, but his performances have been good and I am willing to be the comes out of this whole long term plan looking pretty good. I think this is a good way to build him back up quickly from the pseudo goofball/insufferable suck up he turned into after his initial debut. Plus the way they are booking Rollins is some really good slow build face turn stuff.

[WingedEagle]

Are people forgetting how great the Cesaro-Zayn series was? Even the Owens-Zayn matches in NXT were MOTYC compared to never hitting that level in the WWE.

 

Wow, maybe that's the difference. I thought the first Owens-Zayn match in NXT had a great, hot start and could've been a great match. Then they pulled the injury angle very quickly and it ended much too prematurely to be anything great. Didn't approach that again until Battleground. But unless Zayn is being directed to temper himself and not sell in great fashion to build a hot comeback, I'm just not sure it can be blamed squarely on a push. Still waiting for him to be part of a single match approaching Nakamura in Dallas.

 

 

I'm not sure I think Zayn is all that great. I think he's had some great and really fun matches in both ROH & PWG, but hasn't been anything spectacular in NXT or WWE outside of the Nakamura match. Very good at times, sloppy and mediocre at others. Even with all of that, there's the point below.

 

 

This is where I am at with Sasha Banks. She had a couple good matches in NXT but the hyperbole over her was out of control. I like Sasha and think she can be great but I didn't think she was already great and it felt like quite a few people had already crowned her.

 

 

Yeah the hype train got out of the station a bit quickly there. I loved the Bayley matches, but those were 2 outings. The threeways at Mania and Clash of Champions were both really good in my book, as were the matches where she traded the belt with Charlotte, but we're talking very good, not upper tier for the company in a given year. If anything, her sloppiness seems to stand out in a good way where it adds to her matches because they approach a level of danger and insanity that kicks things up a notch. Much like when Zayn was dumped on his head at Battleground, as opposed to some other instances where he may slip up in a fashion that takes you out of a match.

[The Chief]

I forgot about Zayn almost paralyzing himself at Battleground. I can't recall a time in company history where there's been so many really scary botches. Cesaro the other night. Sasha at Summerslam. Enzo earlier in the year. Probably more I'm forgetting. It's uncomfortable to watch. What's changed? Surely their luck has to run out eventually?

[WingedEagle]

Last few months they've certainly given the go ahead on apron spots.

[Loss]

For someone who wasn't paying attention at the time, how would you compare Sami Zayn's ability to engage people and have good matches since joining the main roster to babyface Daniel Bryan in 2010-2011?

[Matt D]

He'd be a hell of a lot better off with Yes! as a crutch. That's for sure. That's one thing he's missing, the sort of crowd participation part of it all. It was a lot easier to get that Ole chant going in NXT, and really, there's absolutely nothing in his current character which would inspire that for a casual fan.

[Blehschmidt]

I truly believe that Zayn may be the only wrestler ever whose selling lost something by taking off a mask.

[GOTNW]

For someone who wasn't paying attention at the time, how would you compare Sami Zayn's ability to engage people and have good matches since joining the main roster to babyface Daniel Bryan in 2010-2011?

Bryan was way better as a worker. Zayn has had matches get plenty of time and his best has been mediocre. Bryan actually knew how to work matches that don't go at least 20 minutes (which Zayn doesn't, and judging by his matches that get the time he's forgotten how to work those as well). Bryan's stuff against Miz was top notch and he was always a really good TV worker as well, whether it be a six minute match vs Wade Barrett or a two minute match vs Great Khali on NXT. In terms of getting over......well honestly they should just burry Zayn and push the narrative he's being held down and all that jazz since that's the only way he'll get over. I don't buy for one second he can pul off the kind of heel run Bryan did in 2011/2012 and work the matches he did against Mark Henry and Big Show.

[SomethingSavage]

What exactly makes you believe Zayn is incapable of getting over as a heel? Have you seen any of his heel performances? They're surprisingly solid and inspired for a guy that should rarely (arguably never) be slotted into that spot anyhow.

 

I really don't think there's any reason to go that route right now, for what it's worth. But I don't know. The mentions of Bryan circa 2011 and the similarities are interesting. No way do I believe Bryan would have gotten out of that mid-card slump without the heel run in late '11 and '12. People like to reflect on things like it was the in-ring stuff that got him over, but the majority of his mainstream appeal came from the comedy, the skits, and (yes) the catchphrase. His incredible selling and work boosted him further beyond that, but it's not what initially got the ball rolling in his favor.

 

Maybe it isn't the worst idea for a similar experiment with Zayn - although I can't help but feel like they haven't exhausted or explored enough ground with Zayn as a straight babyface yet.