NXT TakeOver Toronto/WWE Survivor Series Weekend

[EricR]

I'm more mystified by the love for Bobby Roode than for Tye Dillinger. He's basically The Miz minus the charisma and with better entrance music.

 

I loved Roode at the NXT house show I went to, and he's never been someone I had an opinion on either way. He really came off like someone who would be great at working "house show" style, in ways that wouldn't translate as well to TV or PPV matches.

[Mrzfn]

Roode is boring as shit in the ring.

 

This is the most common complaint I hear, but I feel like I never see it. The guy can be methodical, sure, but I always see him doing a dozen little things to keep the match interesting. An old school touch here, a bit of psychology there, a lot of subtly well built sequences... well, to each their own I suppose.

[stro]

Tye is like a Z-Man level guy. Which is fine, because companies need dedicated lower card guys who can pop a crowd when they win and make guys look great when they lose. I don't know why anyone is expecting any more from him than that, though. It's pretty telling that he was far more impressive as "jobber to the new international/indie/TNA" guy than as a guy actually having long matches with offense and wins.

[JerryvonKramer]

I watched NXT Toronto, much better show than Survivor Series, which was a shower of shit.

 

I'm more towards thinking Roode is good than boring, although the opener did nothing for me. I've seen Roode have good matches.

 

I'm not gonna review whole show, just the DIY vs. Revival match which has had some hype around it, some even calling it best tag match in US history, which is an accolade I've bestowed on a match that happened earlier this year: Chris Hero and Tommy End vs. Sami Callihan and Zack Sabre Jr (1/22/16).

 

DIY vs. The Revival (11/19/16)

 

I'll just cut to the chase: I did not think it was a five star match, or even a 4.75. I'll go to some criticisms first:

 

- Scott Dawson just isn't crisp enough for me. He has some good Arn-stooge spots and some stiff shots, but several times in the match I thought his positioning, timing and execution were all a bit off. Now you could say, "yeah but Akira Taue", but Taue despite his awkwardness and often not-that-good execution was usually in the right place at the right time. I don't know but Dawson not being quite tip top in that area dragged me out of the match at several key moments.

 

- The final fall came very suddenly. For some reason I was expecting them to go a bit longer in the third fall but it didn't quite happen.

 

I did like the character work from both teams throughout and thought that the old-school psychology was well worked. But I can't put this above, say, Clash 17 (4.75) where you have all-time workers playing these same roles to absolute perfection. There were just a few times I thought these guys weren't quite the finished article.

 

It is still an excellent match, don't get me wrong just laying out why it isn't top tier in my view. I'll give it the exact same rating I gave Sasha vs. Charlotte. MOTYC level rather than all-time pantheon level. They also made the belts feel like they mean a lot. I also marked for the sick fight in the middle which led to Dawson being cut open hardway, that was manly.

 

****1/2

[cheapshot]

For me it was the best tag match in WWF/E company history. I feel Scott is crisp when he needs to be crisp, nothing he or the other three did took me out of the match at all. Maybe it did for you and that was a factor in deciding your final rating.

 

My reasons for why it was ***** that I posted on Twitter (@allan_cheapshot) are as follows:

 

1. Very likeable faces you want to root for, and heels that get non ironic heat.

2. 2-out-of-3 falls: Guaranteed length to give the match a lot of depth, and chance to tell a story.

3. Greatly executed throughout with very well timed spots.

4. Hot crowd got into it from the start until the finish.

5. Perfect climax with something to fight for in the case of the tag team titles and respect beyond fans and critics alike.

6. World class FIP segment,

7. Convincing near falls.

8. Dawson got some colour.

9. Story that has been building for half of the year while keeping both sides strong and intriguing.

10. Packed with emotion and drama throughout.

[JerryvonKramer]

One thing I've been thinking about, and this goes back to Sasha vs Charlotte too, is if matches with proper face / heel dynamics are gaining at least 1/4* now just because they are doing it? Not saying that is what has happened, just that for me I take that stuff as read and don't award extra flakes just for it being there, it's just standard, or at least should be.

 

Would recommend those who haven't seen either of these shows going out of their way to watch the DIY vs. Revival tag though. Only thing on either show absolutely worth seeking out imo.

[KawadaSmile]

IMO, having clear face/heel dynamics wouldn't award the match another 1/4* or something, but if it doesn't have that dynamic, or plays it backwards - like some big WWE main roster matches do - then it would get that 1/4* detracted from it.

 

It's just that the match had everything it should have, with near perfect execution.

[stro]

Sasha/Charlotte has clear face/heel dynamics but still was a hot mess and it didn't help the match in the least.

[Seabs]

Womens Survivor Series match wasn’t up to much. It got plenty of time but also never actually enough time to do anything with any of the pairings. They basically just rushed through to the final fall and even then that was short on time. Everything was basically just there. They’ve really cooled Sasha right off. These matches need clean falls against the bigger names but Sasha’s fall should have been protected a lot more than just getting rolled up by Natalya of all people. Give Alexa the minor rub there. Nia continuing the story that I’m the only the one reading off her dominating but continuing to fall into traps which quickly lead to going down (which is usually getting caught in a submission and tapping) made me smile. I’m assuming she works Sasha for a while now which lends itself perfectly to continuation of that (not-a-)story. Becky/Bayley at the end didn’t get the time to be what they clearly wanted it to be. The right women survived.

Miz/Zayn was very good. Miz delivered again. This was a decent match considerably bumped up by the leg work. Take note Shinsuke. I’d be totally fine with Zayn just selling a lingering leg injury for the next year he’s so great at it. Kinda like how Cesaro was selling the arm every match earlier in the year after coming back from surgery. They worked the Figure Four spot really well between them. That finish isn’t great but if you’re doing it then it was done well. Works with the Miz/Maryse dynamic, Zayn didn’t look completely stupid by thinking Miz had tapped out of his sight in that position and it gives the Miz/Bryan feud easy material to work off with Bryan and SD benefiting from Miz’s cheating. I enjoyed this infinitely more than I would have if this was Ziggler/Zayn.

Tag Teams Survivor Series match was good. It was frankly terrible until Hype Bros went out. Not sure what FaBreeze have turned into but it’s terrible and not in a heel stooge terrible way. I’ve done a good job avoiding Mojo all together but his minute spell on offence was as bad as whatever Fandango was doing at the start of the match. New Day going so early was good. They don’t need to survive here and you may as well eliminate them in a way that gets a nice pop. Primo and Epico getting an extended shine period in this of all matches was really weird. Cesaro/Sheamus and The Usos had a really great mini match for the final fall that was everything you want from a short tag sprint. Usos got put over really strong here which is nice but they’ve spent the last few months being jobbed out on PPVs to comedy teams in Fandango/Breeze and Slater/Rhyno.

SD’s direction with the Tag division is pretty clear. Give Slater/Rhyno the short babyface reign to kill time before you run Usos/Alpha into Mania because that’s literally your only pairing of any value. Usos looking strong here I assume means they get the belts a couple of months later than they should have done and you then restart pushing Alpha to the top again and have their big Title win at Mania. Which on paper is actually really good but the execution hasn’t been. They’ve pissed all over what momentum Alpha had coming out of NXT and done nothing to get them over to the new audience. Waiting is good but you need to be pushing them while you wait and keeping them strong in preparation for that Mania moment. Instead they’ve just done nothing at all. This was the perfect opportunity to put a ton of shine on them without winning the belts too soon. Everything that The Usos did here should have been what Alpha got to do. And they should have gone over too. That was where the biggest rub was. Instead they got some very minor shine and went out early leaving The Usos to play the babyfaces fighting against the odds.

Which brand reigns supreme means fuck all to anyone outside WWE’s bubble but you’d think they’d at least have it 1-1 going into the rubber right? Instead I spose we got classic 50-50 booking yet again even in an odd numbered series where Raw wins the series but SD wins the big one. In other words, nobody won besides the individual acts who survived.

I really hope the 10 shtick over count outs doesn’t catch on elsewhere.

Kendrick/Kallisto was decent but jesus the crowds are just all time levels of silent for these Kendrick matches. Everything he does on paper is really good but it doesn’t work at getting a dead crowd up and it isn’t anywhere near as effective as a heel on top compared to busting out all these spots as the scrappy desperate underdog. Because all these wiley veteran spots are perfect scrappy hope spots. At the risk of sounding like a broken record I’m just dumbfounded that they took Kendrick from the CWC who was the best babyface act in forever and made him a heel that can’t get any sort of reaction at all. In an era of nonstop highspots running rampant through nearly every match, the Cruiserweights being the ones to work the most dumbed down safest style is quite incredible. The only time the crowd came alive was for the Spanish Fly spot which is what a division like this should be. You have a bunch of new athletic guys that you need to get over all at once, well the easiest way is to send them out there and do a bunch of nutty spots. Bully Choke spot was worked really well. Finish is what it is. Shoutout to Corbin working through an injury that took him off the show to appear on the show. I spose you get more coming out of this match with that finish (Kallisto/Corbin has an edge to it now and you have easy material between Bryan and Corbin) than you do Kendrick just beating Kallisto. The Cruiserweights are still yet to have a match that universally breaks the *** barrier.

The final 5-on-5 was a weird case of a WWE match being extremely well booked but actually let down by the action. Everything in between the falls was just there but they booked the falls really well. Strowman looked really good in this. Well aside from the AJ spot which gave the Cesaro botched dive a good run for scariest spot of the year. Which in this type of match is very achievable but it’s also kinda like where is the end game with him? You build him up to feed to one of your top babyfaces but the top babyface overcoming the monster heel in a subpar match isn’t really a successful formula anymore. And after that WWE have barely ever given any of them monster heels much of anything after their initial run. His best hope is that he can do comedy and that gives him longevity in between the periods where Vince decides to do the monster push again. His elimination was pretty much perfect. You get in your Shane highspot (which is always a good spot) and the extra touch of having get up and about to make it back in before for 10 was great. The Ellsworth addition was great too. Short of being the sole survivor and beating the entire team himself they couldn’t have put Strowman over any better than this. Ellsworth feels like an in joke that I’m not a part of but this was a good minimalistic use of him.

Owens and Jericho eliminations worked for adding towards their teased breakup. Sure Owens should be put over better but they’re not booking him as that type of Champion so why start here. What I liked about a lot of the booking on this show is that every finish advanced something. Sure in isolation Owens’ elimination could be seen as daft if you have this false image of Owens being Brock-lite but they’re building towards a program that’s comedy first, heat second so that finish worked.

The AJ/Ambrose stuff worked to get them both out while being protected and also sets both of them up for something with Taker. Ambrose was set up for that harder than AJ was but I’m not sure where they fit that in for Taker. Cena’s almost 100% challenging for the Title at Mania, it’s just a question of if the champ is AJ or Taker. I’m leaning Taker given that he’s back early. They can do Cena/AJ on any show and have already gone to it, Cena/Taker is more of a Mania spectacle. Putting the Title on it kills some of the suspense of who wins but if it was Cena/AJ I don’t think that wouldn’t be an issue there either. So my guess is Taker/AJ at Rumble and Cena earns a Title shot at the Feb PPV with Balor getting the Rumble win and essentially getting every rub he can be given by time Mania is over by which point he’ll likely still be in single figures for matches on the main roster. But he won’t be overpushed….

Shane/Reigns spot was great. I get why people hate the concept of Shane in these matches but tbh he’s got a bunch of in ring experience at this point now and doesn’t really get much offence in besides his big daredevil spots. Those punches looked awful but if you have Shane in there isn’t it better for him to be throwing these awful punches that look like a non-wrestler trying to play wrestler? And also at people arguing against Shane’s involvement, he was the most over babyface in that match. Actually, he was basically the only actual star in that match. Sure you have guys like AJ, Ambrose and Owens who are popular but they’re not OVER. Jericho more so but it’s more his comedy shtick than Jericho the wrestler. People enjoy them and find them entertaining but none of them are needle movers that have fans wanting to see them win or lose. So there’s a real argument to be made for Shane being the most over guy in the match and the biggest actual star in the match. Which considering that they pretty much put all of their top full time guys in this match is worrying. Not at all striking or revealing though.

Shield reunion spot I popped for which I don’t do very often. Teasing it with just Reigns and Rollins and then getting Ambrose in the mix was neat and they let it breathe long enough for you to anticipate it and then when Reigns and Rollins freed Ambrose it came off really well. I was worried when it came down to Rollins/Reigns that they’d put them 2 over strong and the crowd would just totally reject it. Wyatt’s going over was a surprise. It’s good that they put a different act over strong for a change but Bray’s been so damaged by year after year of the reverse that it’s a case of too little too late. JBL completely blowing the call at the end followed a super awkward 5 seconds of silence ruled. You had one job John. To his credit though I did enjoy his call when Ambrose was screwing AJ out of the match. But he’s doing the big sell to put over Smackdown vs Raw rather than AJ vs Ambrose so you know. They did this terrible Smackdown vs Raw thing that nobody cared about in order to get literally nobody over. Not even Stephanie or Shane because neither of them were presented as winners.

Goldberg/Brock was a spectacle. I don’t watch live and my file had about 10 minutes left to run as Brock came out so I knew this was going to be really short but based on that I figured Brock was just squashing Goldberg, definitely not vice-versa. Putting my logic hat on with my business pants this didn’t make much sense. Building Brock up like they did for this would be awesome if Goldberg was someone who they could build off of week after week for years to come but he’s not. That said though, there’s not an obvious alternative to put in Goldberg’s position instead of him. Definitely nobody on the current roster because we saw in the previous match that none of them are stars. Maybe Joe but eh I don’t think so. And they don’t see him as being a top guy because he’s clearly been brought in to booster the vanity project before anything else. Shinsuke is the only semi realistic alternative and I suppose is a better alternative than Goldberg but he can still beat Brock later down the line in a longer match where he gets a different type of rub from beating Brock.

I mean sure, that’s what they SHOULD have done but what we did get was great and I’m not turning my nose up at WWE delivering a great moment and building a big marquee match up to have a definitive winner. The good guy even won! It’s easy to look at the value they flushed with beating Brock here but they should also gain some much needed value for the brand. It’s created buzz, Goldberg’s a bigger asset going into Mania season than anyone’s been since probably Brock returned for all of a month before the Hunter feud killed that off, and they also gained some much needed faith with viewers that if they hype up a massive main event match they’re gonna deliver something big and buzz worthy on the execution of it. And that’s not something that they usually do. How often do they have a match like this and has some daft overbooked finish where there’s no decisive winner and nobody really gets over. If Goldberg is working up to Mania now as it seems then that should make the decision sting less and make more sense. Ignore the part about it should have been someone else for a second. It seems inevitable that Lesnar attacks Goldberg at the Rumble and they rematch at Mania. The rematch is bigger than the Survivor Series match now because of this. Theoretically they now have a major marquee match for Mania that will have a great build going into the event. If Brock wins then you can’t rematch or if you do it doesn’t mean more than the original did.

I think everyone really overstates the value in Brock too. He’s not a massive needle mover. He shows up on Raw and ratings don’t change. Using him for a single show doesn’t have a big revenue boost with the Network model now taking over and as far as I’m aware they’re not selling out bigger venues with him on shows than they would be otherwise. He definitely WAS a major star when he first returned but frankly that died in less than a year and any drawing ability he had to an audience that weren’t watching WWE anyway was killed with the Hunter feud where he went back to playing pro wrestler again and trading loses. Everyone always plays up the rub of beating Brock and yes beating Brock means more than beating anyone else but without that crossover audience tuning in you’re not really elevating anyone to new heights if you’re not growing your audience. And granted that’s just a fraction of a much bigger problem but I just want to put it out there that beating Brock will make someone an instant megastar is becoming more and more myth than reality the further we go on.

And once the decision is made to put Goldberg over this was exactly the right way to do it. Winning in a back and forth traditionally structured match doesn’t create half the buzz that this did. Fact, this got people talking and you can be outside the WWE bubble and know exactly what went down. Also this was being sold on the spectacle a lot more so than delivering on match quality. Ok you might have some fans who feel robbed that they didn’t get more of a match but they’ll be far outnumbered by the fans who came out of this show buzzing and the people who didn’t watch the show but are now intrigued into tuning into to see what’s next for Goldberg. And you’ll get the back and forth “epic” at Mania! Moments are more important than match quality. Rousey ending fights in seconds rather than having “a proper match” boosted business much more than her going the distance would have and assuming you save this for once in a blue moon it’s no different.

I can get why people would shit on the show. Whatever closes a show often decides overall perceptions of a show and I can totally get why people would be pissed at how Lesnar/Goldberg ended. Personally I thought it was a great spectacle and the buzz I felt coming out of it far outweighed the undeniable booking issues. While nothing on the show was great, all the matches were at least decent and this was a very well booked show that nicely advanced pretty much everything that it needed to.

[sek69]

Seems fitting that Goldberg's return match would also mark the return of what I used to call the WCW Effect of people not liking shows because they didn't like the main event.

[stro]

Seems fitting that Goldberg's return match would also mark the return of what I used to call the WCW Effect of people not liking shows because they didn't like the main event.

The WCW Effect is how Sting and Goldberg came back and popped the ratings from people who stopped watching when WCW went under. Disco Inferno is about to make his triumphant return.

[JerryvonKramer]

Seems fitting that Goldberg's return match would also mark the return of what I used to call the WCW Effect of people not liking shows because they didn't like the main event.

 

I was completely indifferent to the main event. Wasn't shocked, didn't care in the slightest one way or the other. Thought the entire show before it was awful. Worst I've seen this year and probably last year too.

[Childs]

Seems fitting that Goldberg's return match would also mark the return of what I used to call the WCW Effect of people not liking shows because they didn't like the main event.

Struck me as almost the opposite. People largely shat on the undercard and then many seemed to dig the main event. And I say that as someone who thought most of the show was crap.

[Parties]

I think that some fans have trouble reckoning with these aging dinosaur issues in pro wrestling in part because they view everyone through the lens of how they perceived them whenever they started watching, or whenever they saw the dinosaur in their prime. To an extent I can understand how Goldberg would feel fresh after 13 years. But to me he looks like a gray 50-year old guy in a bad denim jacket. Still a badass, but not the guy who should be on top. Could he be the badass trainer/manager who cuts the promo on behalf of a protégé? Absolutely. But to suggest that someone like Royce Gracie (49) or Kimo (48) should be at the top of UFC (even if they were capable) is crazy, as it would make the sport look tired and stagnant.

 

Consider the following hypothetical. The year is 1993. After years as the dominant act in the company, then 39 year old Hulk Hogan (the same age Brock is now) having just reclaimed the title at Wrestlemania 9 from Yokozuna (then 27) loses the belt in a competitive squash at King of the Ring. Is his opponent that same young monster Yoko? Or up-and-coming ace Bret Hart (then considered something of a late bloomer at age 36)? No. In this hypothetical, Hulk is vanquished by a 50-year old star of the past who still has something left in the tank. Who was Goldbergs age or even a bit younger in 1993 that would have fit this description?

 

Billy Graham, Terry Funk, and Harley Race (then around 49-50, just like Goldberg). Dusty Rhodes, Buddy Roberts, Sonny King, Ronnie Garvin, and Vince himself (all age 48). Tony Garea or Jerry Brisco (then 47), Bill Eadie (46), Dick Murdoch (45), or Sgt. Slaughter (45). All terrific (or outright stellar) acts in their day. But the idea of one of those guys - even a big star like Graham, Harley, Dusty or Slaughter - squashing Hogan in 1993 sounds excessively short-sighted if not outright ridiculous. Let alone the idea that a la Brock, someone like Hulk should have even been the company ace in 93. To have guys like that on top even if it gets a pop that night, as it probably would have feels too recessive.

 

I say all of this as someone who can enjoy the story they told and appreciate it as something different. It was a good work-around of some limitations. But the problem isnt one match or one big-show main event. Its that the company has been stuck in the past for 15 years, and that too many fans indulge it. The problem isnt at all that the match should have been longer or more competitive: its that youre now booking your biggest matches of the year around which old star signs to be a playable character in that years video game. It may be sensible marketing - by the same logic of doing a gimmick-heavy show right before the holidays, but creatively it's for me one more reason to disengage, not spend money or watch the weekly TV, and only catch the big stuff sporadically.

[Lee]

I didn't mind the fans shouting "Ten!" during the count-outs, but I just wish they had enough of a filter to know what the line was between being cute and being obnoxious. Doing it in Dillinger's match - amusing enough to raise a chuckle, especially as it would come off like they were trying to trick Roode or hype up Tye. Doing it two matches later on the same show - okay, that's a bit weird. Stop it. Doing it the next night on a non-NXT show - shut the fuck up already, you unbearable cretins. You already had your fun with it, now stop ruining mine.

[DMJ]

Just posted my full reviews of both shows on my blog.

 

Definitely enjoyed certain matches more than most here, including the Nak/Joe match and Male Team RAW/Team SmackDown Survivors match, which, at times, kind of felt like the best possible Royal Rumble match they could put on today. It was full of insane spots (the spear to Shane), fun comedy (Owens/Jericho's list shenanigans), nostalgia (Shield reunion), and good character development/storyline advancement (Braun came out of this super strong and, though I don't really like either guy, Wyatt and Orton were both due for a chance to be seen as relevant which their victory allowed). It was not your average Survivors match - it was more akin to a MITB ladder match if anything - and I was okay with that. I certainly wasn't bored by it and am surprised that others were.

 

As for Saturday night, anyone calling that the worst NXT special yet obviously enjoyed The End...of the Beginning and Unstoppable shows more than I did.

[Cap]

I had to get to these shows over the span of a few days and I wanted to rewatch the tag match and the title match from NXT before I commented on them. Nothing really groundbreaking here, just my thoughts.

 

I don't get the hate for the NXT show on the whole and I especially don't get the hate for the Nak/Joe match. I liked it fine on the first watch and really liked it on the second watch. They were stiff and Joe's counters, control runs were brutal. I love Joe as a monster, especially older, even stockier scary strong looking joe. I thought the work on the leg was pretty awesome. The one thing I really didn't like was Nak not selling the leg during his comebacks and his offensive flurries. Cory Graves tried hard to save it and he did his job, but nope... not my thing. They were hitting on all cylinders at the end I think and Joe taking the low rode, but still looking like a dangerous monster in his win was a fantastic second stage for this feud. They sold the big moves pretty well and were throwing them like haymakers at each other. I have also seen a lot of people (here and elsewhere) saying Nak isn't giving it everything, but that just seems like classic WWE getting in the ear of a guy, building up the intensity of the feud. Overall, I thought this was a really good to great match. It wasn't as good as the tag match, of course, but I really enjoyed it, very underrated match to me.

 

I threw 4.75 snowflakes at the tag match. The rewatch put it to that level for me. The revival are just so good. The only thing I didn't LOVE is the finish, which kept it from the 5 to me. It was decisive and fun, but it was just a touch cheesy to cap off such an elite match for my taste. Still, this is absolute top stuff.

 

I also thought the James/Asuka match was pretty good. I thought giving James a lot, but still giving Asuka the decisive win felt right. Asuka built her dominance on women that were going to the main roster and we hadn't really seen a compelling opponent for her in some time. We all knew the result, but they swerved a bit with the structure of the match and it worked for me.

 

Survivor Series was fine, not great. The women's match was all over the place. Smackdown women looked better to me.

 

The tag match was fine. The first half made sense and the last half was a blast. Seamus and Cesaro were great working with the Usos down that final stretch.

 

The singles men match was pretty good I thought. They had lots of layers and entertaining spots. They really planned the match out fairly well. Elseworth hold Strowman out was awesome. The Reigns/Shane spot was bonkers and a little scary. They worked in the Owens/Jericho stuff and the Styles/Ambrose feud really well. i was pleasantly surprised that Bray was the one to finish it off. I want him to gain some momentum and this could do that (at least enjoy the idea).

 

The main.... ohhh the main. I am not mad or bitter about it, but it felt like a waste of time to me. I get the logic of Brock underestimating Goldberg. I understand the arguments for this being a positive spectacle, but it just wasn't for me. They put a lot of time and energy into booking Brock Strong, ideally to for him to pass some of that on to others. He ended the streak and squashed Cena and they kept his shoulders off the mat. To me, the next time Brock gets pinned was supposed to feel more important and this - as shocking as it was - didn't feel satisfying. It is just bad storytelling. The great thing about wrestling though is that you always fix it. The story is never ending so the arches can be reset. Maybe this turns out for the best and clearly a lot of people dug it, but it just wasn't for me.

[Coffey]

I'm not gonna review whole show, just the DIY vs. Revival match which has had some hype around it, some even calling it best tag match in US history, which is an accolade I've bestowed on a match that happened earlier this year: Chris Hero and Tommy End vs. Sami Callihan and Zack Sabre Jr (1/22/16).

 

****1/2

 

I wish you would have seen the match & rated it before reading what others said about it. There's 0% chance that didn't affect how you viewed the match. Alas, that's an impossibility at this point. Shame.

[NintendoLogic]

I think that some fans have trouble reckoning with these aging dinosaur issues in pro wrestling in part because they view everyone through the lens of how they perceived them whenever you started watching, or whenever you saw the dinosaur in their prime. To an extent I can understand how Goldberg would feel “fresh” after 13 years. But to me he looks like a gray 50-year old guy in a bad denim jacket. Still a badass, but not the guy who should be on top. Could he be the badass trainer/manager who cuts the promo on behalf of a protégé? Absolutely. But to suggest that someone like Royce Gracie (49) or Kimo (48) should be at the top of UFC (even if they were capable) is crazy, as it would make the sport look tired and stagnant.

 

Randy Couture was a top guy in UFC well into his forties.

[C.S.]

Joe vs. Nakamura in Japan has to be a set up for Nak to regain the title in his home country, right?

 

I'm not a Joe fan, but it really is time to call one or both of them up to the main roster. I'd dig Joe vs. Roman. That feud writes itself IMO.

[Parties]

 

I think that some fans have trouble reckoning with these aging dinosaur issues in pro wrestling in part because they view everyone through the lens of how they perceived them whenever you started watching, or whenever you saw the dinosaur in their prime. To an extent I can understand how Goldberg would feel “fresh” after 13 years. But to me he looks like a gray 50-year old guy in a bad denim jacket. Still a badass, but not the guy who should be on top. Could he be the badass trainer/manager who cuts the promo on behalf of a protégé? Absolutely. But to suggest that someone like Royce Gracie (49) or Kimo (48) should be at the top of UFC (even if they were capable) is crazy, as it would make the sport look tired and stagnant.

 

Randy Couture was a top guy in UFC well into his forties.

 

 

Sure, and I naturally thought of guys like him, Hendo, and Hershell Walker in writing that whole spiel. Fans liked those stories, and Couture was the biggest success of them. But there's a difference between Couture winning the heavyweight title at 43 (the same age, for instance, that Undertaker won his last world title in 2008) and Goldberg still being presented as Goldberg at 50. It would also be different if Goldberg was the exception to the rule (as Couture and Henderson were). If WWE had a thriving new generation who were being booked strong... or if Goldberg (or even Lesnar) was being booked against a newer act to give the younger guy the rub... you get it. It's a broken record conversation at this point, but that's the issue: it's been the same problem in WWE for fifteen years. Even independent of WWE's mindet, the booking problems and apathy towards their current crop is so entrenched in the company and fans alike that you have Meltzer saying that WWE "finally" has a hot babyface who at long last is worth getting behind.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

I'm not gonna review whole show, just the DIY vs. Revival match which has had some hype around it, some even calling it best tag match in US history, which is an accolade I've bestowed on a match that happened earlier this year: Chris Hero and Tommy End vs. Sami Callihan and Zack Sabre Jr (1/22/16).

****1/2

 

I wish you would have seen the match & rated it before reading what others said about it. There's 0% chance that didn't affect how you viewed the match. Alas, that's an impossibility at this point. Shame.

That is true. But on the other hand, the true classics are ones that come to you ready-hyped as five star and still hold up.

 

One thing I will say though is that I had to pause the match and ended up picking up over an hour later, so that might have disrupted flow or stopped me getting more into it.

 

Are my comments about Scott Dawson wrong? Is he typically seen as a completely polished performer a la Arn?

 

What puts this over something like Clash 17 for people? Just wondering. A lot of folk gave this five, and folk I tend to agree and align with.

[stro]

I for one would have popped for Bruno beating Hogan at KOTR 1993

[Matt D]

I think Dawson's ring positioning stood out as a major positive to me in that match. Dash was far more lacking in that regard but they made it work with their struggle and reactions. Dawson came off hugely precise and polished to me. That was pretty much my only non-structural comment on the match.

[Coffey]

 

 

I'm not gonna review whole show, just the DIY vs. Revival match which has had some hype around it, some even calling it best tag match in US history, which is an accolade I've bestowed on a match that happened earlier this year: Chris Hero and Tommy End vs. Sami Callihan and Zack Sabre Jr (1/22/16).

****1/2

I wish you would have seen the match & rated it before reading what others said about it. There's 0% chance that didn't affect how you viewed the match. Alas, that's an impossibility at this point. Shame.

That is true. But on the other hand, the true classics are ones that come to you ready-hyped as five star and still hold up.

 

One thing I will say though is that I had to pause the match and ended up picking up over an hour later, so that might have disrupted flow or stopped me getting more into it.

 

Are my comments about Scott Dawson wrong? Is he typically seen as a completely polished performer a la Arn?

 

 

No, not necessarily. I just like reading what you have to say about matches/events after you watch them, hearing your opinion on them. All of us, to a certain degree, can have our opinions influenced by what we see/hear/read so that's nothing out of the ordinary. I'm just curious, barring the outside circumstances, if the match would have been different in your eyes.