WWE Survivor Series 2018

[Matt D]

4 minutes ago, FMKK said:

I could write a treatise about Brock Lesnar and his booking/performances the last couple of years, but it has to be said that very few can bring a big match performance like he can.

Ronda seems like she can, in a match right before his, without the same shortcuts/shorthand, abridged-match nature? 

[FMKK]

2 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Ronda seems like she can, in a match right before his, without the same shortcuts/shorthand, abridged-match nature? 

Very few does tend to imply more than one, yes.

 

The Ronda match may have been the better wrestled match, but because of who Brock Lesnar and Daniel Bryan are, I was biting on all the stuff in theirs on a different level. The sheer uncomfortable feeling I got from the beating Bryan took made me feel his comeback on a more visceral level and genuinely lose myself in cheering him on to batter Brock. That doesn't happen without the aura that is unique to him, tarnished as it is compared to a few years back when he only had great matches and people weren't sick of him.

[Microstatistics]

13 minutes ago, Matt D said:

The match felt somewhat uneven to me. Bryan takes all that damage early on. Brock takes a bunch of nasty knee shots, sure, but they should have focused a bit more on the leg since it was going to play a role in that stretch. One chop block and a slam into the post doesn't mean Brock's leg gives out on him when that's rarely ever happened and relative to the sheer amount of damage in the rest of the match. It wasn't earned when so much else was purchased and just tossed aside. They're creating a world and it's a wildly uneven one. Add in the context of the match before it and the amount of work Charlotte did on Ronda's leg only to basically have her shake it off once in the stretch, and it becomes even more uneven. It's almost impossible to show that sort of attention to detail in a Brock match because the details so rarely matter. That's probably why I get so frustrated; I'm a details guy. I was 100% into whether or not he'd tap at the end, but I can't imagine ever going back to watch this again now that I know whether he did or not. 

 

Yeah, disagree with that. If you look at finisher-fest nonsense like WM34 then yeah but most of his high end matches (including the Goldberg series) have quite a lot of focus on details. Though I guess the definition of detail work is subjective and arbitrarily defined.

[Matt D]

1 minute ago, Microstatistics said:

 

Yeah, disagree with that. If you look at finisher-fest nonsense like WM34 then yeah but most of his high end matches (including the Goldberg series) have quite a lot of focus on details. Though I guess the definition of detail work is subjective and arbitrarily defined.

It's all drowned out by the noise and the sfx. There are details. The story that they're trying to build relies on the details. There's a level of consistency to them on paper and even in the performance. They still don't matter because the noise drowns it all out. The sound mixing is all off and you can't hear the skill and precision on any of the other instruments because the drums are too damn loud. 

 

[Jmare007]

I know this doesn't apply for this show in particular but this gif is gonna get a ton of usage from now on.

 

 

[Childs]

11 minutes ago, Matt D said:

The match felt somewhat uneven to me. Bryan takes all that damage early on. Brock takes a bunch of nasty knee shots, sure, but they should have focused a bit more on the leg since it was going to play a role in that stretch. One chop block and a slam into the post doesn't mean Brock's leg gives out on him when that's rarely ever happened and relative to the sheer amount of damage in the rest of the match. It wasn't earned when so much else was purchased and just tossed aside. They're creating a world and it's a wildly uneven one. Add in the context of the match before it and the amount of work Charlotte did on Ronda's leg only to basically have her shake it off once in the stretch, and it becomes even more uneven. It's almost impossible to show that sort of attention to detail in a Brock match because the details so rarely matter. That's probably why I get so frustrated; I'm a details guy. I was 100% into whether or not he'd tap at the end, but I can't imagine ever going back to watch this again now that I know whether he did or not. 

To me, you're going too far asking a match to be a perfect math equation. In sports (and certainly in life) input doesn't always equal output. Sometimes, you hit a few moves at the right juncture and your opponent falters, regardless of what happened earlier in the match or in another match on the same day. I'm not saying you abandon all logical causality, and I don't think they did. But the ratio doesn't have to be, and probably shouldn't be, one-to-one. They took the fans on the exact ride they intended.

[KawadaSmile]

Let it be known that Ronda Rousey had 3 MOTYC on her first seven months as a professional wrestler

[Matt D]

1 minute ago, Childs said:

To me, you're going too far asking a match to be a perfect math equation. In sports (and certainly in life) input doesn't always equal output. Sometimes, you hit a few moves at the right juncture and your opponent falters, regardless of what happened earlier in the match or in another match on the same day. I'm not saying you abandon all logical causality, and I don't think they did. But the ratio doesn't have to be, and probably shouldn't be, one-to-one. They took the fans on the exact ride they intended.

And that's ok. I get it. I just don't think I can go on this ride in a real comparative sense. I get sometimes you get something freak that happens, but it's not about there being a one-to-one ratio. I get it. It's wrestling. Sometimes one legdrop can mean more than ten minutes of a beatdown, but it all feels bankrupt. No, it feels like inflation. That's exactly what it feels like. They've devalued one impact/bump/move to such an extent in a Brock match, how can we really feel like one or two much, much smaller things can possibly mean anything in comparison? How does anything else  in a match, let alone on a card matter when so many throws don't? I get that freak things happen, but a match with a lot more strategy would have been far more compelling to me in a Raw vs Smackdown champions' match, one with one of the best technicians ever. Brock can slip on a banana peel if he's wrestling The Miz. Let's see Bryan try to solve the puzzle, like in most of the best Hansen matches. This had a hell of a lot less thought put into it. 

They took the fans on the exact ride they intended but it pales to the sort of rides that wrestling can take you on. There's a cost to what makes Brock so seemingly special and everyone and everything pays for it. 

[FMKK]

Also, is it really out of the realm of possibility that the combined factor of his leg being wrapped around the post, taking a load of big head shots in quick succession and the match being three times as long as what he usually has could be enough to cause Brock to stagger on an F5?

[Childs]

4 minutes ago, Matt D said:

And that's ok. I get it. I just don't think I can go on this ride in a real comparative sense. I get sometimes you get something freak that happens, but it's not about there being a one-to-one ratio. I get it. It's wrestling. Sometimes one legdrop can mean more than ten minutes of a beatdown, but it all feels bankrupt. No, it feels like inflation. That's exactly what it feels like. They've devalued one impact/bump/move to such an extent in a Brock match, how can we really feel like one or two much, much smaller things can possibly mean anything in comparison? How does anything else  in a match, let alone on a card matter when so many throws don't? I get that freak things happen, but a match with a lot more strategy would have been far more compelling to me in a Raw vs Smackdown champions' match, one with one of the best technicians ever. Brock can slip on a banana peel if he's wrestling The Miz. Let's see Bryan try to solve the puzzle, like in most of the best Hansen matches. This had a hell of a lot less thought put into it. 

They took the fans on the exact ride they intended but it pales to the sort of rides that wrestling can take you on. There's a cost to what makes Brock so seemingly special and everyone and everything pays for it. 

How did the throws not matter? He had Bryan beaten in a squash and picked him up because he's a cocky asshole. It fit his character, and Bryan spent plenty of time selling the damage.

 

And I wouldn't say he slipped on a banana peel. Bryan hit a small cluster of moves on the leg, and they paid off in a single moment. It was a small, well-timed reward for Bryan's opportunism.

 

I'm not saying it was the height of wrestling storytelling, but it was an effective, well-executed match that made good use of their talents and personas. 

 

 

[Matt D]

7 minutes ago, FMKK said:

Also, is it really out of the realm of possibility that the combined factor of his leg being wrapped around the post, taking a load of big head shots in quick succession and the match being three times as long as what he usually has could be enough to cause Brock to stagger on an F5?

Maybe? I don't know.

Would it have done anything but made the match better to give Bryan another 45 seconds to work on it like a bulldog smelling blood (mixed metaphor, sorry) though? This in a match where Brock tossed him around relentlessly for the first 2/5th. Would it have hurt anything to cut 45 seconds off of that and add it to the other end? 

[Microstatistics]

Overall, good show

Charlotte vs. Ronda was easy MOTN for me. Best Charlotte performance since 2016, she wrestled that match with a crazy intensity. Unorthodox layout and interesting spots with a lot of struggle. Though Ronda abandoning the leg selling was sort of disappointing considering selling has been her biggest strength so far. Crazy postmatch ***3/4

The two elimination matches were fun. AOP vs. Bar was bad and disappointing with literally the stupidest possible ending. Good main event. Nakamura vs. Rollins was alright

Also 6-0 is weird booking

[Jmare007]

1 minute ago, Matt D said:

Maybe? I don't know.

Would it have done anything but made the match better to give Bryan another 45 seconds to work on it like a bulldog smelling blood (mixed metaphor, sorry) though? This in a match where Brock tossed him around relentlessly for the first 2/5th. Would it have hurt anything to cut 45 seconds off of that and add it to the other end? 

Does his first attack being on the leg count for something?

 

All jokes aside, I agree with what you are saying. Specially in the case of Brock matches, his formula requires iffy selling by either him or his opponent (or both) and details do get overshadowed by the "spectacle" of it all. 

 

[Johnny Sorrow]

I loved this show. There was shit I hated and made fun of mixed with Nia being awesome, Rousey/ Flair, and Bryan/ Brock blowing me away.

[Matt D]

3 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

Does his first attack being on the leg count for something?

 

All jokes aside, I agree with what you are saying. Specially in the case of Brock matches, his formula requires iffy selling by either him or his opponent (or both) and details do get overshadowed by the "spectacle" of it all. 

 

I'll take the earnestly appreciated offer to meet me mid-way and turn in now so I can manage the morning commute. I'm sure we can have all of these arguments again the next time Brock wrestles. That said, I may double back for Childs in the morning.

[Childs]

2 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I'll take the earnestly appreciated offer to meet me mid-way and turn in now so I can manage the morning commute. I'm sure we can have all of these arguments again the next time Brock wrestles. That said, I may double back for Childs in the morning.

Just know that if you wait until morning, I may no-sell your offense.

[SmartMark15]

Best main roster show of the year. Just edges out Evolution for me. Those last four matches were crazy good and I'm in the camp that has Bryan-Lesnar solidly up there with Lesnar-Styles. Were they formula-wise the same match? Yes. But the addition of Bryan's low blow made for the most believable Brock opponent comeback for a long damn time, even more believable than Reigns' attempts this year. Crazy good show.

[EricR]

I really thought this show was a little lame, with Nia's heel reaction and blowing on her knuckles the only thing I really dug. And then we got those last two matches and I had zero cares what came before. Those matches delivered far more than I was expecting. Ronda is legit, can't imagine not watching anything at all with her at this point. I thought Brock/Bryan was going to end with Brock crushing Bryan completely, can't believe the match flipped that switch and let Bryan just hang toe to toe with him. Awesome final hour. 

[Blehschmidt]

9 hours ago, Microstatistics said:

Also 6-0 is weird booking

Especially since the theme half the night was that no one on Raw could get along....

But I guess we needed to make sure that Stephanie would be able to come out and brag about it tonight since we haven't heard about how wonderful she is since she invented women's wrestling for that PPV last month.

On the plus side, at least we got to see how "The Best in the World" Shane McMahon is the top wrestler on that loser show Smackdown.

21 years of McMahon's dominanting storylines at this point...... Will it never end?

[Matt D]

11 hours ago, Childs said:

Just know that if you wait until morning, I may no-sell your offense.

It's not quite afternoon here in DC. 

I don't know. I tend to love matches that are almost entirely build and payoff with a finishing stretch, your MS-1 vs Sangre Chicana matches with the comeback being the huge punch, the La Fiera matches with the spin kick out of nowhere, Lawler dropping the strap, though that's a little bit of something else; Invader #1 selling and selling and selling until he can manage an opportunity and fire back. I should like these.

Usually with those matches, there's a reasonable place for it to go. The beatdown is bloody and compelling and visceral but it leaves room in the match for escalation in the comeback. 

[El Boricua]

Taking advantage that today's a local holiday in Puerto Rico, I watched the show. My thoughts:

• The tag team elimination match was good for what it was, but it highlights the lack of interest WWE has in the tag division. The match was good for what it was. Looks like Roode and Gable are working on their team offense. Nice to see Metalik make a PPV event.  It was absolute BS to ignore this match result in the head to head counter. Either have the Revival win or just tweak where Corbin's warned that he's on thin ice if they don't win out after that result.
• Women's match had some good character moments and action. Nia embracing the whole punch backlash is what you should do out of this situation. I've seen the reactions complaining about Nia getting a push out of this, well she was already getting a push before this and wrestling history si littered with shoot injuries being worked into feuds and character development. Glad Bayley and Sasha were put in the match, but why the sudden change of mind from Alexa. If they were to be consistent, she should have gone with any two of Morgan, Logan or Foxx. God showings from almost everyone, with Naomi being the only one done wrong.
• Nakamura and Rollins was a tedious match, do not get the people that I've seen calling that match good to great. It wasn't' good, just passable.
• AOP and The Bar should have been better but between the Enzo thing (not their fault) and the pants peeing (their fault), it was what it was.
• Ali and Murphy was good, hopefully it raises their profile more to the wider fanbase.
• The men's elimination tag was WWE presents Lethal Lottery with the way Raw was bickering. It was fun, Miz was the highlight for me with his sucking up and sacrificing of Shane. Samoa Joe getting eliminated right off the bat was a rehash of Naomi being eliminated quickly ion the women's match. An actual Rey vs. Balor match would be good. I'm ambivalent about Strowman eliminating everyone left on Smackdown like chumps and I've had enough of Shane being in these matches for Smackdown.
• Both Ronda and Charlotte brought in their match. Great match and the snapping at the end makes complete sense with the crisis of confidence Charlotte has had. It is the actions of someone who was desperate in the face of realizing that she might lose. Ronda is just like a fish to water with regards to wrestling. Feel Ronda should have a required a bit more assistance to leave the ring after having her throat/chest Pillmanized (not necessarily stretchered out, but definitely some helping her out). The one thing I really didn't like (and I'll avoid going on a tangent rant about the overall problem with the crowds too above it all) is the crowd reaction post-match, specifically the thank you Charlotte chants when Ronda got her chest crushed with a chair. that was just a trash  reaction from the crowd. There's like five different directions they can go from here to Wrestlemania, it'll depend on when Becky is able to get cleared. One thing I would not do is have Nia vs. Becky until after Wrestlemania.
• The main event was really good once Bryan actually  stopped getting killed. To be honest, this felt like matches one and two of a trilogy melded into one. The first part would be the first match where Bryan gets killed, once Bryan started coming back it felt like the second match where the underdog tries everything and comes close only to fall in the end. Likely will never get the third part where the hero finally pulls it off. I initially thought that Brock collapsing at the F5 attempt was due to the cumulative effects of the knee strikes and head shots he took, not due to elg damage. The first part where Brock was killing Bryan was too long and had one really bad fault IMO and it was the refereeing in the first part. Any referee that resorts to check for a pulse and does not stop the match should be fired and hanged. That right there highlights that the initial part went on too long.

[SomethingSavage]

I won't have time to sit down & watch anything from this show until later this week - possibly the weekend - but wait. What? Somebody pissed their pants?

[El-P]

I guess the one match I would have loved is Charlotte vs Ronda. Oh well... 

[sek69]

2 hours ago, El Boricua said:

Glad Bayley and Sasha were put in the match, but why the sudden change of mind from Alexa.

They did an angle on the preshow (the same one WWE made clear doesn't matter later on) where Nattie and Ruby got into a fight so Alexa kicked them off the team. 

[Jimmy Redman]

I'm not sure what my favourite moment of the women's entrances was - Nia getting such massive heat and Naomi ROFLing in the ring about it, or Mickie asking Bayley for a hug when she came down and being completely rejected and going all, "Oh, OKAY..."

I liked Sonya getting a lot of shine here. I also enjoyed the Corey/Mandy stuff for once because he went full Corey and it was funny and it was kind of paid off when she was eliminated and Renee went "Do you need to walk her to the back?" and Corey sulked silently for a minute. Sasha and Asuka need to wrestle a thousand more times. Give em an hour. Although the more that they wrestle each other the closer Sasha comes to her inevitable death at Asuka's hands. I laughed when Nia screwed Sasha and broke up this workrate segment just to get some more shoot internet heat brother brother. Giving No Fucks, leaning in Nia is awesome and it turns out both of them may be better off from this accident if Nia has finally found her heel character and got some legit heat to play with. 

But anyway what I actually came here to say was HOLY MOTHER EFFIN' FLIPPIN' FREAKIN' FLAPPIN' FUCKIN' SHIT AT RONDA VS CHARLOTTE.

My utter God.

It's amazing that this was the pencilled in Mania main event and then suddenly became a consolation prize and a step down from the REAL match on four days' notice and all people care about is Becky now and she's lowkey assassinated Ronda's character and Charlotte is Charlotte and I was pretty prepared for people to chant "BECKY" through this and kill it and instead WE GOT THIS SHIT.

AND MOTHERFUCKERS ACT LIKE THEY FORGOT ABOUT FLAIR.

Charlotte Flair. People sleep on Flair because she's always pushed so hard and such a lame babyface and Becky has basically been taking her spot from her right before her eyes so when she got the chance she done went full on "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought I heard you say I'm not in the WM main event..."  and tore this fucking shit up. Big Match Char.

When she stared death at Ronda and then started out by throwing a fucking WILD punch and then a Holly Holm high kick and then shooting for the knee making Ronda NO SELL AND STALK HER DOWN like the fucking Terminator, YES. Once Charlotte shoot shoved her down as well like, fuck, they ain't playing. Then they just get into this gritty as fuck wrestling match, everything was real and earned and nasty as hell.

Ronda being able to roll through and transition into an armbar from literally any position on the planet is amazing and awesome. She's inventing wrestling. She also ATE that fucking turnbuckle and hit the sickest enziguri ever. They're basically having a shoot style match now.

That whole top rope thing was amazing. Ronda gets tested and it makes her try something high risk and outside her wheelhouse - going up top - but she's still so green that she doesn't quite have it down yet and takes too much time and gets countered. BUT she hangs on and grabs Charlotte from there - cool as - and does the one thing she DOES know how to do - roll into an armbar. Fucking love it.

Charlotte fucking HATED IT every time she was caught in an armbar. Hold that thought.

RONDA STARTING TO RONDA UP AND TURNING AROUND INTO A SPEAR WAS THE GREATEST SPOT OF ALL TIME.

You can add 2.99 kickouts to the list of Things Ronda Rousey Has Somehow Already Mastered After Wrestling For Five Minutes Better Than People Who Have Spent A Lifetime Wrestling And Frankly It's Unfair To The Entire Rest Of The Business That She's This Good At Wrestling. It literally shouldn't be possible for her to be this great this quickly she's had 11 matches and ALL of them have been good and 3 of them have been MOTYCs and she is THIS DAMN GOOD and you can take your Kurt Angles and your whoevers and absolutely go fuck yourself in the arsehole with them because this is the best legit rookie year in wrestling history do not at me.

It's not just the things you'd expect her to be good at like armbars and doing cool moves and projecting badassery. It's her timing. It's her babyface comebacks. IT'S HER SELLING. My God the selling. She bumps like a trooper and eats shit and she sells so damn well and shows so much vulnerability in a way that makes her look like she's been honing this act for a decade and not for 7 months. Unbelievable.

Speaking of vulnerability, Charlotte crying out in anguish late in this match ruled, it's something she tends to do a lot - particularly as a heel when she would get upset and cry out for her father to help her. Another nice bit of foreshadowing to bring that back, a sign that she was getting upset at not getting it done and perhaps needing to resort to something desperate. Charlotte never gets enough credit for little things like that. She may have a lame character but she is fucking WORKING it.

And then she gets caught in MORE ARMBARS and when it got twisted when they were in the ropes in that last bit she grabbed her arm and you could tell she went, "Nope, fuck this shit." and BLAMMO.

WAR CHARLOTTE!

I assume this was close enough to the original finish they had for Becky, but it has actually turned out so much stronger doing it with Charlotte. It plays perfectly into Charlotte's crisis of confidence after losing the title and losing to Becky, not wanting to captain SD. She NEEDED a big win here. Needed it. And when she reached the point where she felt she couldn't get it, she lost it. She refused to lose again. And 7 months of frustration, going all the way back to first being screwed out of the title by Carmella cashing in, never really getting revenge for that, only holding the title again for a couple weeks, losing her best friend, losing to Becky constantly, and now possibly losing her Mania spot, and not being able to really DO anything about it because she was a babyface and playing nice, all of that shit was all unleashed upon the world here. It was powerful.

Charlotte has almost never looked better. She came off genuinely frightening and unhinged. She was ready to fucking throw down with those refs. Holy shit. Do not fuck with.

After Monday The Rock himself would have struggled to get a look in on that Mania spot with how much Becky has blown up, and then Charlotte just did her damndest to take that spot right back. She couldn't possibly have made a better attempt.

Ronda is fucking legit. Gets elbowed in the face and bleeds out the mouth. Chest chopped raw. Bleeds out the ear. Charlotte destroys that stick into splinters all over her and fucks her whole ass up. Then Pillmanizes her fucking neck. She got fucking murked here. BUT she is Ronda fucking Rousey and even though it took a million years and a million attempts, she flat out REFUSED to let anyone help her out of this damn building. Badass motherfucking shit. And what does she get for her troubles? People chanting for Charlotte and Becky. Ouch.

That moment when Ronda turned around on the ramp to survey the crowd, and her eyes narrowed as she realised they were all playing her off and had ZERO sympathy after watching her nearly die for them... that was quite something. Heel Ronda is going to be INCREDIBLE.

I could write a tome about this match. Well I just did I guess. That was my favourite match of the weekend, which isn't easy when Takeover exists. That was my favourite match in forever. It was badass as fuck, and felt genuinely game changing in a way that few matches do. Charlotte reclaimed her time here. Ronda isn't human. And we still have BECKY LYNCH waiting in the wings. My God.

There is ZERO chance the women don't main event Wrestlemania 35 now. It's just a question of which ones.