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All Elite Wrestling offically a thing


sek69

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2 hours ago, hammerva said:

Dave might not be on their payroll but if you don't think he will have some kind of "Minister of Information" role in the company you are delusional.  Listen he has been a shill for everything Young Bucks in the last 2 or 3 years so why not get some money for it.   The days of thinking that Meltzer is an "objective journalist" died many years ago

That's the thing, though. What would the Bucks gain from paying him that he isn't already giving them for free?

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Sek has long had this weird thing about wanting to gotcha me but:

I have zero grudge against Dave (dunno if that's mutual since the only vitriol I ever hear from him is for an audience),  and I would be subscribing to the Observer if the options weren't giving money to Bryan or the now outrageously expensive print version. I have serious issues with Bryan and Tony over them repeatedly being less than honest with me about monetary matters (among other things) while I was writing for them, but I'm well aware that Dave has nothing to do with any of that.

Why would I be "jealous of Dave for breaking the story" when I have very obviously made a point to not be a breaking newz scoopster in the last several years? It's not what I do and not something I have any real desire to do, which should be obvious by this point. 

Do I think it's weird to (potentially) agree to an embargo that was for the barest minimum of new information? Possibly; it just seems like it would be a weird favor to trade. But no, I don't think it's likely that Dave has done paid consulting for AEW, and especially not since the point that the company became more than a theoretical exercise. I think he's handled the larger story oddly for months (and I'm far from alone there), especially in basically ignoring the original SEScoops report, and I've certainly heard speculation about it. (Which you saw spill over to Twitter on Tuesday.) But the idea of him un-learning one of the most important lessons of his first decade doing the Observer seems pretty farfetched.

Are there other people I wouldn't put it past? Absolutely.

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13 hours ago, sek69 said:

In AEW news, it seems pretty clear Zack Ryder will be joining as soon as contractually possible. It will be interesting to see how many "creative has nothing for you" WWE guys make the jump since it seems like they'll let guys do their thing to get over.

The question to me is how many people the WWE will let go. The WWE has stopped firing (well, future-endeavoring) people appart from guys screwing up personally (like Enzo or Big Cass). Now with another potential big player on the scene, WWE will be even more hesitant.

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Re Bix's post: I'll just say I respect Loss too much to clutter up his board with an argument with you, but let me just clarify some things:

 

I'm not trying to "gotcha" you, I'm just pointing out you frequently end up being passively aggressive towards people for real or imagined slights, to the point of obessiveness. There's a reason one of the message boards we used to frequent years ago turned your name into a verb. When you would go on one of your tangents it was known as "bixing up the thread". Also per your PM, I never was two faced toward you, I never had an issue telling anyone how I feel to their face. I just don't go around actively starting fights with people/stalking other message boards. If someone else pointed out your behavior there's no reason for me to lie and say it wasn't true. Besides, I always assume you're a member of any wrestling related board I've ever gone to. You always have to check to see if people are talking about you. 

 

The comments about jealousy were more geared toward people like Les Moore, who is outright demanding Dave make apologies for things Les is making up out of whole cloth.  That's some Vince Russo fanboy level bullshit, and he should probably be careful he doesn't cross the line legally because his comments could be seen as potentially libelous (not that Dave would ever take the time to sue someone, but you can't just accuse someone of something with no evidence and demand they confess/apologize for it).  I never suspected you were jealous of Dave, more a combination of your belief that his friendship of Cody and the Bucks is somehow a ethical lapse and maybe some transfer of heat from your issues with Bryan. From the time Being the Elite got big to them becoming big stars in ROH/NJPW to the AEW stuff starting to bubble up, you've beome more and more weirdly hostile on Twitter. 

 

As far as Dave himself goes, what's he supposed to do in this situation? He's known the guys involved for a long time, now that they're potentially the biggest story in decades he's supposed to stop talking to them so that people on the internet don't accuse him of bias? That's not how it works.

 

 

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14 hours ago, Zoo Enthusiast said:

The Twitter rumor is that Dave is a paid consultant.  I would consider that to be ethically compromised if true but YMMV.

First person I saw claim that was, to no surprise, anti-Dave obsessive 'Les Moore' and his buddy Sean Ross Sapp was tweeting it too, although claiming it was all speculation (SRS is all about speculation), that he had no evidence that it was the case and that Fightful would never take money from anyone (although Fightful is so low on the totem pole when it comes to reporting I don't know why anyone would come to approach them for anything).  FWIW I don't believe Dave is a paid consultant for reasons already mentioned in this thread, the thing is he could come flat out and say that he isn't and you would still get the likes of 'Les', the Russo sycophants etc claiming he is so what's the point and why should he have to?

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I'm barely paying attention to this stuff (look, I'm about 500% more excited by the fact that I found a bunch of 2007 Dustin Rhodes on Highspots that wasn't on anyone's radar, even if I don't plan on actually getting it, than anything to do with AEW), but this does remind me a little of the disclaimer Marcy Wheeler puts at the bottom of every single one of her posts on the Mueller investigation on her blog (which is probably comparable in relative legitimacy to what Dave does, if you really squint), because she provided some evidence to the FBI at some point. It feels just a little like overkill or even self-aggrandizing but it also provides a buffer. 

"As I disclosed in July, I provided information to the FBI on issues related to the Mueller investigation, so I’m going to include disclosure statements on Mueller investigation posts from here on out. I will include the disclosure whether or not the stuff I shared with the FBI pertains to the subject of the post."

It probably wouldn't kill him to put something like that in the Observer or at the end of the daily updates or what not, just for the sake of transparency. 

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I'm not sure why AEW would need to pay Dave when he's clearly in the bag for the Bucks anyway. But to be fair to Dave, his coverage in the print Observer at least has been pretty even-handed so far.

I'll probably never watch their show, but I wish them all the luck in the world. I think their ceiling is replacing ROH as the #2 promotion, especially if they can steal ROH's New Japan affiliate status.

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I love (well, not really infact) how the most exciting news of the last few years (decade ?) turns into a tepid debate about Meltz being paid off or not by the Young Bucks, stuff about useless Twitter feuds, not to mention the usual "well I'm not really interested anyway" posts. I used to be stereotyped as the grumpy one around here, but damn if the board doesn't come off as blasé as fuck here... :wacko:

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33 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

What sort of disclaimer should Dave provide when covering the Elite? That he really likes their matches? That the Bucks named a move after him? It's obviously a different story if he does have some sort of paid consultant role, but again, there's zero evidence that such is the case.

By these standards Meltzer should also put a disclaimer into the newsletter that the Freebirds (literally) pissed on him, i.e. that a key backstage persionality of WWE at one point considered Dave as someone that he liked.

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40 minutes ago, El-P said:

I love (well, not really infact) how the most exciting news of the last few years (decade ?) turns into a tepid debate about Meltz being paid off or not by the Young Bucks, stuff about useless Twitter feuds, not to mention the usual "well I'm not really interested anyway" posts. I used to be stereotyped as the grumpy one around here, but damn if the board doesn't come off as blasé as fuck here... :wacko:

Exactly . All this pettiness from these nobody insiderz is tiresome as fuck.

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48 minutes ago, El-P said:

I love (well, not really infact) how the most exciting news of the last few years (decade ?) turns into a tepid debate about Meltz being paid off or not by the Young Bucks, stuff about useless Twitter feuds, not to mention the usual "well I'm not really interested anyway" posts. I used to be stereotyped as the grumpy one around here, but damn if the board doesn't come off as blasé as fuck here... :wacko:

This is one of the few communities on the internet that isn't full of "Elite" fanboys, so I would expect enthusiasm to be muted.

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1 hour ago, paul sosnowski said:

The Freebirds pissed on Dave??

During one Japan trip during the late 80ies one or multiple of the Freebirds (I assume Gordy was there, I don't remember the details) pissed on Dave in the bathroom. Meltzer was puzzled why they would do that as he did not know why they would be mad at him until someone told him that this was a sign by the Freebirds that they liked someone (that they considered him as one of the "boys"). Dave has told this story many times on the air.

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2 hours ago, El-P said:

I love (well, not really infact) how the most exciting news of the last few years (decade ?) turns into a tepid debate about Meltz being paid off or not by the Young Bucks, stuff about useless Twitter feuds, not to mention the usual "well I'm not really interested anyway" posts. I used to be stereotyped as the grumpy one around here, but damn if the board doesn't come off as blasé as fuck here... :wacko:

The comments section of CagesideSeats.com seems pretty "meh" about AEW too, for whatever that's worth.

I think people will be a lot more excited once this becomes a more concrete "real" thing - TV deal, actual signings, etc.

At this point, there are still too many questions and unknowns. 

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1 hour ago, C.S. said:

The comments section of CagesideSeats.com seems pretty "meh" about AEW too, for whatever that's worth.

I think people will be a lot more excited once this becomes a more concrete "real" thing - TV deal, actual signings, etc.

At this point, there are still too many questions and unknowns. 

I think there's a bit of an uneasy feeling because of how unknown so much is at this point. While I have a lot of trust in Cody and the Bucks in terms of producing a product (the build to Cody-Omega and then to All In were terrific), the new venture guts ROH (maybe no big loss) and potentially NJPW (a bit more concerning). I think it's all going to work out and the people primed to enjoy AEW will, and NJPW will probably be fine, but there's a sense of loss that hasn't been immediately replaced with something new to enjoy (and it seems like the promotion is at least many months away from real launch).

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6 minutes ago, Migs said:

I think there's a bit of an uneasy feeling because of how unknown so much is at this point. While I have a lot of trust in Cody and the Bucks in terms of producing a product (the build to Cody-Omega and then to All In were terrific), the new venture guts ROH (maybe no big loss) and potentially NJPW (a bit more concerning). I think it's all going to work out and the people primed to enjoy AEW will, and NJPW will probably be fine, but there's a sense of loss that hasn't been immediately replaced with something new to enjoy (and it seems like the promotion is at least many months away from real launch).

How woulc this move "gut" New Japan? Omega is the only guy that really matters for them, and he already works part time. And they've been working on a replacement for him this past year with White (whether it actually works, it's another subject).

10 hours ago, sek69 said:

Re Bix's post: I'll just say I respect Loss too much to clutter up his board with an argument with you, but let me just clarify some things:

Where is Charles anyway? I haven't read a post from him in months.

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16 minutes ago, Migs said:

I think there's a bit of an uneasy feeling because of how unknown so much is at this point. While I have a lot of trust in Cody and the Bucks in terms of producing a product (the build to Cody-Omega and then to All In were terrific), the new venture guts ROH (maybe no big loss) and potentially NJPW (a bit more concerning). I think it's all going to work out and the people primed to enjoy AEW will, and NJPW will probably be fine, but there's a sense of loss that hasn't been immediately replaced with something new to enjoy (and it seems like the promotion is at least many months away from real launch).

But what if NJPW decides do ditch ROH and go with AEW instead? I don't think NJPW will suffer in the slightest way. ROH is the one promotion that has more to lose than anybody in this.

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2 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

How woulc this move "gut" New Japan? Omega is the only guy that really matters for them, and he already works part time. And they've been working on a replacement for him this past year with White (whether it actually works, it's another subject).

If the Elite guys don't continue working there (still up in the air, it seems), it removes a number of the favored gaijin of a lot of fans. Losing Omega would be the largest blow, obviously, but all the rest have been a key part of the big shows. Cody's main evented a bunch of times this year, and the tag team division looks a lot worse without the Bucks (although the weakness in the heavyweight tag team division is in part a reason why they can afford to lose the Bucks - there's not many obvious matches for them at the moment). And I think the step down in gaijin is huge - I have far, far more interest in Cody and the Bucks than in Jay White and Juice Robinson.

 

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Back when they were building  up the annoucement, they (meaning Cody, the Bucks, and Kenny) said they'd be sticking together wherever they went in 2019. I'm assuming they make some kind of working agreement with New Japan to let Kenny work shows for them. The issue I could see causing a problem is if ROH declares them the enemy, New Japan might not want to work with someone feuding with one of their business partners, since they've tried to discourage their talent from working shows with AAA guys because of thier partnership with CMLL (ironically New Japan seems to be the only one left keeping the CMLL vs AAA beef alive). Perhaps if AEW takes off they could replace ROH as their US ally. There's a twist no one really talks about.

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2 minutes ago, SirEdger said:

But what if NJPW decides do ditch ROH and go with AEW instead? I don't think NJPW will suffer in the slightest way. ROH is the one promotion that has more to lose than anybody in this.

Totally possible, and perhaps even likely. But because of the MSG show, it seems like that won't be true in the short term, and it seems like everyone except maybe Omega (and Scurll) is going to be treated as if they're finishing up at the Dome. And I'm definitely a bit less excited for MSG because Cody and the Bucks won't be on the show (although I still anticipate them putting together a great show).

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25 minutes ago, Migs said:

If the Elite guys don't continue working there (still up in the air, it seems), it removes a number of the favored gaijin of a lot of fans. Losing Omega would be the largest blow, obviously, but all the rest have been a key part of the big shows. Cody's main evented a bunch of times this year, and the tag team division looks a lot worse without the Bucks (although the weakness in the heavyweight tag team division is in part a reason why they can afford to lose the Bucks - there's not many obvious matches for them at the moment). And I think the step down in gaijin is huge - I have far, far more interest in Cody and the Bucks than in Jay White and Juice Robinson.

 

"Favored gaijins to a lot of fans" is an exaggeration, imo. There's a number of New Japan fans that either don't care or are beginning to resent The Elite guys a little bit. But regardless of that, my point was how important they really are for New Japan besides Omega. Cody has been used mainly for the US shows, which have been horribly promoted with lazy, "house show" cards that have had problems selling tickets (mostly due to bad promotion, imo). He isn't really a player at all in their local product, which people tend to forget but still is their bread and butter and their main focus.

The Bucks fill a spot in the tag division, sure. But they are very part time in Japan and the tag division is just "there" for the company anyway.  Same could be said about guys like Scurll and Page. They are very replaceable if needed be. I wouldn't call losing them "gutting" NJ.

 

But the most likely scenario is that AEW and New Japan will work together though so this whole discussion is moot :lol:

 

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Does anyone really give a shit if this affects ROH?

The days of ROH being a sympathetic online favorite are long over.

The product has been dogshit for a while now - the shows are unwatchable with terrible production values - and being owned by the vile and corrupt Sinclair Broadcasting is another nail in their coffin, perception-wise.

Attending an old-school ROH show live - Supercard of Honor II - will forever be one of my greatest memories as a wrestling fan, but that ROH died many years ago.

NJPW will be fine either way, even if Jay White (or whoever) doesn't end up being an adequate replacement for Kenny Omega.

In the end, I'm guessing AEW will work with not only NJPW but also ROH and the NWA - just like we saw at All In - so it's a moot point anyway.

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