Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[sek69]

26 minutes ago, El-P said:

I understand that point, but again, not really. That's assuming people in the business only see AEW as a "If I can't get a push in WWE" case, which obviously is ridiculous.

Not *only*, but Moxley, Cole. Redragon, Keith Lee\Swerve, Andrade, 2.0, FTR, Claudio, Luchasaurus, Malachi Black, Samoa Joe, and even Sting if you think about it were all seen as not star material by WWE and every one ended up getting way more over in AEW. I can't believe that wasn't weighting on the minds of people toiling in NXT or stuck in the mid card on the main roster that they'll never get a chance with Vince and AEW was the greener pasture.  Now maybe people who had their minds made up to jump at the first opportunity might now be thinking "well the biggest obstacle is gone maybe I'll give the new regime a chance".

[El-P]

Yes, but again, it makes it look like WWE is the only destination of any worth. These people work in the pro-wrestling business, not the WWE-business. Sure, people might want to go to WWE now that Vince is gone because they believe they can get a better shot now. But how does that make AEW any less appealing ? There are two major pro-wrestling organizations on the field now, with two very distinct approaches. The idea that all of a sudden, every guy is gonna run back to WWE and the AEW audience will dwindle because they can't wait to watch WWE again is just, a totally WWE-centric thought process. 

[Jesse Ewiak]

Speaking personally, putting aside the idea that the people you listed are actually bigger stars than they were before in any real way (and I guess in this version of reality, Moxley wasn't really treated as a top star because what, he wasn't pushed above Rollins and Roman and he didn't get to have a weapon and blood filled brawl w/ Brock like he wanted?), I'd much rather have the future of the WWE be in much of the NXT 2.0 roster, including Carmelo Hayes, the Creed's, Bron, et al than a bunch of 30+ year old guy w/ lots of indy miles on them. 

I'd much rather the WM 41 & 42 cards be full of folks currently either on NXT, in the performance center, or currently just getting started on the indies, as opposed to a bunch of guys who were on Takeover's a couple of years ago. 

[El-P]

WM 42 will be all about Roman Reigns, Brock Lesnar, Seth Rollins, Charlotte Flair and the new hot star Cody Rhodes. Probably.

The who makes it and who doesn't from NXT2.0 will be pretty interesting though.

[NintendoLogic]

Actually, it'll be interesting to see what becomes of Cody with HHH in charge of creative. After all, he surely remembers this:

He hasn't been the type to forgive and forget in the past, but maybe his health scare changed his outlook.

[El-P]

If he could still work, you know how this would end.

Gotta says this though. If the product gets really much better really fast and they manage to make new stars in a short span, then it will reflects even worse on Vince retrospectively. 

[Embrodak]

Yeah I was thinking Cody might be the big loser out of all this if by chance HHH is not as convinced as Vince seemed to be that Cody is a top guy in the making.

 

Re: relative levels of overness, Moxley is as over in AEW as he is because he was a near-top guy in WWE for years and left in the prime of his career amidst perceptions that he was being held down. FTR are better off in AEW than they were in WWE, but that’s more a demerit to WWE’s tendency to book tag teams like jokes than a credit to the blasé booking they were given in AEW prior to this year. Claudio was intermittently pretty over in WWE and had a permanent upper midcard position like Sheamus  if he wanted it, it remains to be seen if he is *more over* long-term in AEW. Of the remainder, Swerve honestly seems like the only one that smacks of “missed opportunity” to me. Keith Lee maybe, if they’d gotten him a good mouthpiece, but it seems like he’s lost something since he was on top in NXT, plus he’s fairly old and has a lot of miles on him.

[Migs]

14 hours ago, sek69 said:

I think the deal with AEW potentially being hurt by this isn't because people think WWE is going to get magically better overnight, but because one of the main selling points to go there was "we won't dead end your career because the old man in charge doesn't get you". If WWE gets to the point where talented folks who aren't 6'5 and jacked can get a fair shot without being repackaged as Scrappy McPoopypants, then that might be something AEW has to deal with. 

I think there's something to be said for competition in the market. AEW honestly at this point has more than enough guys to build a show around. If they lose a few to WWE when contracts expire, I don't think it's a killer. (And the key guys I think are with them for the long haul - no way Punk is going back, for example.)

[Coffey]

5 hours ago, El-P said:

Yes, but again, it makes it look like WWE is the only destination of any worth. These people work in the pro-wrestling business, not the WWE-business. Sure, people might want to go to WWE now that Vince is gone because they believe they can get a better shot now. But how does that make AEW any less appealing ? There are two major pro-wrestling organizations on the field now, with two very distinct approaches. The idea that all of a sudden, every guy is gonna run back to WWE and the AEW audience will dwindle because they can't wait to watch WWE again is just, a totally WWE-centric thought process. 

It's the whole NFL logic, right? Like sure the CFL exists & you can make a living there, but it's not the NFL & you can't play in the Super Bowl. In professional wrestling, WWE is the NFL & Wrestlemania is The Super Bowl. 

I reckon to some people that's all that matters. Both people in the business & fans, if you go by social media. 

[strobogo]

Cody has long said that HHH is actually one of his biggest influences and mentors in his WWE run. I think he'll be fine when he returns. 

 

As for Keith Lee's age, he's younger than Bryan, Punk, Claudio, Kingston, Omega, Christian

the same age or within a year of: Miro, Black, Moxley, Orange

[The Thread Killer]

57 minutes ago, strobogo said:

Cody has long said that HHH is actually one of his biggest influences and mentors in his WWE run. I think he'll be fine when he returns.

Exactly. I distinctly remember Cody mentioning in an interview that he gave while he was still with AEW that he really liked Triple H and considered him a mentor and friend. And at the time he gave the interview, he was an EVP with the competition, there was no reason for him to lie and say that if it wasn’t true. Or at least, if he did not believe it to be true.

[Embrodak]

1 hour ago, strobogo said:

Cody has long said that HHH is actually one of his biggest influences and mentors in his WWE run. I think he'll be fine when he returns. 

 

As for Keith Lee's age, he's younger than Bryan, Punk, Claudio, Kingston, Omega, Christian

the same age or within a year of: Miro, Black, Moxley, Orange

Yeah but he was starting his build *from* an older age. I’m not saying they couldn’t have gotten something out of him, they absolutely could have if they’d done something to hide his biggest weakness (mic work), but there is an opportunity cost involved in building up someone that just had a major health problem that you were maybe only going to get a few years out of even without that versus getting two or three young college guys on threadbare training contracts. 
 

Did not know that about Cody, that’s cool. If one can put the AEW run out of one’s mind, his WWE run so far has been pretty excellent.

[Blehschmidt]

Care to expand a bit more on mic work being this supposed weakness of Keith Lee?

He is an intelligent, well spoken man with a great deep voice who enunciates clearly and gets his point across concisely.

or is this that "He doesn't sound black enough" talking point that both the Cornette Cult and the Vincels seems to believe in.

 

[The Thread Killer]

20 minutes ago, Blehschmidt said:

Care to expand a bit more on mic work being this supposed weakness of Keith Lee?

He is an intelligent, well spoken man with a great deep voice who enunciates clearly and gets his point across concisely.

or is this that "He doesn't sound black enough" talking point that both the Cornette Cult and the Vincels seems to believe in.

 

I have never seen or heard Jim Cornette claim Keith Lee does not sound “black enough.” He has been very critical of Lee’s promos, because he claims that he finds his delivery very odd, and that he never gets fired up. Plus his cadence when he talks is somewhat strange, it’s almost sing-song like. His whole “greetings and salutations” deal is not what you would expect from any pro wrestler…black or white. I can only assume that is really the way he talks, which is fine.

I have heard the exact same criticisms levied against Kenny Omega…his promos lack any emotion or urgency. I know not everybody can point at the camera and scream, not everybody is Eddie Kingston or MJF. I have heard people defending Keith Lee and say that his delivery is unique and sets him apart. And that’s true. I hope if he ever gets involved in a blood feud or heated angle that he does ramp up his emotion a notch. I remember having a similar discussion regarding Brian Pillman Jr., it’s all about conveying emotion.

[The Thread Killer]

2 hours ago, strobogo said:

As for Keith Lee's age, he's younger than Bryan, Punk, Claudio, Kingston, Omega, Christian

the same age or within a year of: Miro, Black, Moxley, Orange

The only worry I have about Keith Lee when it comes to his age, is that the dude weighs 400 pounds, and he does dives and all sorts of high-risk maneuvers. It’s only a matter of time until his knees start to give out. I hope he gets a good long run on top before his body starts to give out on him, or conversely, I hope he changes his style up a bit and does more power based moves so he does not put himself in physical danger. I think he is smart enough to only bust out those crazy moves when it matters. Plus, the AEW schedule is pretty much tailor made for him. He only has to wrestle once or twice a week at most, that should help guarantee that his career will be longer than it would have been otherwise.

It’s like that whole “bump card” theory I have heard Mick Foley and Edge talk about. You only have so many high risk manoeuvres in you before your body gives out or starts to break down. The trick is for those guys, to only bust them out when it means the most. Especially when you are a Keith Lee’s size.

[Embrodak]

31 minutes ago, Blehschmidt said:

Care to expand a bit more on mic work being this supposed weakness of Keith Lee?

He is an intelligent, well spoken man with a great deep voice who enunciates clearly and gets his point across concisely.

or is this that "He doesn't sound black enough" talking point that both the Cornette Cult and the Vincels seems to believe in.

 

He lacks conviction and has kind of a lilting, sing-songy cadence that undermines the aural effect of his otherwise deep voice. He often *over*enunciates words in an unnatural way in the middle of a sentence such that it sounds like he’s reading dialogue, not talking. He doesn’t really have an ear for memorable wrestling lines, like when he riffed on how he uses the word “plethora” online in that promo they posted to YouTube a few months ago. Idk, always sounds to me like he’s performing and reciting, not talking, not dissimilar to how Danielson sounded on the mic back in like 2009 but with different qualities of artifice. Whether it’s really the way he talks or not, the effect is jarring, at least to me.

[TheDuke]

1 hour ago, The Thread Killer said:

Exactly. I distinctly remember Cody mentioning in an interview that he gave while he was still with AEW that he really liked Triple H and considered him a mentor and friend. And at the time he gave the interview, he was an EVP with the competition, there was no reason for him to lie and say that if it wasn’t true. Or at least, if he did not believe it to be true.

Unless Cody is a true carny and is working the long con.

[sek69]

1 hour ago, TheDuke said:

Unless Cody is a true carny and is working the long con.

He absolutely is, and I'm sure Hunter knows the deal. 

[Coffey]

4 hours ago, Embrodak said:

He lacks conviction and has kind of a lilting, sing-songy cadence that undermines the aural effect of his otherwise deep voice. He often *over*enunciates words in an unnatural way in the middle of a sentence such that it sounds like he’s reading dialogue, not talking. He doesn’t really have an ear for memorable wrestling lines, like when he riffed on how he uses the word “plethora” online in that promo they posted to YouTube a few months ago. Idk, always sounds to me like he’s performing and reciting, not talking, not dissimilar to how Danielson sounded on the mic back in like 2009 but with different qualities of artifice. Whether it’s really the way he talks or not, the effect is jarring, at least to me.

He comes off fake as fuck. Like when WARRIOR was trying to sound smarter by using bigger words. It's ridiculous. He sounds like a moron.

[sek69]

I never got the feeling that his promos sound fake. He reminds me of a college professor who maybe uses $5 words when a $1 word would suffice, but it's pretty clear dude talks like that IRL.  Like I said before, he reminds me of Beast from the Xmen. 

[The Thread Killer]

9 minutes ago, Coffey said:

He comes off fake as fuck. Like when WARRIOR was trying to sound smarter by using bigger words. It's ridiculous. He sounds like a moron.

Um excuse me but who are you doubt the awesome power of destrucity?

[Embrodak]

2 hours ago, sek69 said:

I never got the feeling that his promos sound fake. He reminds me of a college professor who maybe uses $5 words when a $1 word would suffice, but it's pretty clear dude talks like that IRL.  Like I said before, he reminds me of Beast from the Xmen. 

Well it’s not for nothing that Corny said he sounds like Frasier Crane. I’m a big word user myself, I’m totally sympathetic to how hard it is to tone down language when you have a decent vocabulary, but I’m also not a professional wrestler.

[JerryvonKramer]

The only thing I care about is the prospect of a long-form Vince shoot interview before he dies on par with the 13-hour Flair High Spots one.

[ButchReedMark]

11 minutes ago, JerryvonKramer said:

The only thing I care about is the prospect of a long-form Vince shoot interview before he dies on par with the 13-hour Flair High Spots one.

There’s about much a chance of that as Wales doing the double in the football and rugby world cups, Parv. 

[KawadaSmile]

Both Keith Lee and Kenny Omega speak like badly dubbed anime characters sometimes.