Dave Meltzer stuff

[shakla]

Plus, wasn't Dusty set to have a knee replacement not too long after this? I remember Dave saying something about it at that point since Dusty had noticeably lost some weight.

[Matt D]

He never came back as NXT commissioner either and that was an implied stip of the Rhodes tag match.

[cm funk]

Dave was kind of obnoxious too. Mocking Henry not being able to carry anyone and pulling a Bryan by loudly and annoyingly exclaiming Johnny Ace doesn't know wrestling because he hired Tatanka after he had a match with Kurt Angle. He also suggested that Orton probably should have won the match with Rollins since they beat him down after the match despite always bitching about how doing stuff like that never helps anyone.

 

 

That was really annoying, taking an unnecessary pot shot at the DVDVR/PWO types (myself included) who've been pimping Henry's ring work for years. I was never on board with the "Henry carried Angle" crowd, but Dave's been stubbornly crapping on Henry's work for years and it always leaves me shaking my head.

 

Also, Tatanka was pretty awesome in his 06-07 comeback run

 

Just reenforces that what Dave likes and what I like are wildly different, but it's annoying when he's so smug about it

[Loss]

We are all smug about what we like and don't like sometimes. I'm willing to give him a pass.

[C.S.]

Before this board, I thought I was the only one who liked Henry...

[sek69]

 

 

Probably a year or so ago, Dave had a valid tangent about how WWE wrestlers were being scripted to say words that no one over 7 would say, like "wiener" and "caca". But yes, that criticism stood out to me as well in this weeks issue.

 

I laughed out loud at "caca" when Alberto used that last year, came off hilariously over the top being unusual to hear on WWE tv.

 

 

I don't remember Alberto using it but Santino using it was one of those moments that made you go "and this is why ad rates for WWE programming are never going to be good".

 

 

It's not nearly as bad when it's a comedy character (not to mention one who's gimmick also includes him mangling English on a regular basis) does it, but it's completely cringe inducing when it's someone we're supposed to take serious.

 

Wasn't there something on one of the Dave shows not too long ago when a question came up about the verbiage in promos where it was explained that's how Vince thinks people actually talk? Or something along those lines.

[EvenStevenBooking]

Before this board, I thought I was the only one who liked Henry...

A lot of the Henry love started at DVDVR (before it succumbed to trolls, memes and races to start the weekly RAW thread). It's strange how much resistance there was/is to admitting he was getting pretty good over the years.

 

As far as juvenile language goes, can anyone ever forget this:

 

[Johnny Sorrow]

Well, i'd hate someone painting "poopy" on my limo.

[goodhelmet]

They wouldn't actually write poopy. They would write shit and the whole world knows they would write shit (or at the very least crap) and that it sucks. It's fucking stupid. In fact, he should have spray painted "This is fucking stupid" on the car.

[Petey]

Or they'd just write, "JBL Sucks". I understand WWE can't/doesn't do what they used to and I have absolutely no problems with a toned down product, but there are ways to go about that without coming across so lame.

[Lee]

I always found the issue with the Henry thing to be people going overboard on it and completely overrating him as reactionary to people who steadfastly refused to accept anything but the common consensus that he sucked. You had one camp so bored by the guy that they refused to accept (and perhaps were legitimately blinded to) the fact thatp he improved dramatically, while another group just went so far with it to the point of being obnoxious. It's like, we all have our "darlings" we can't stand and guilty pleasures we love, and that just seemed to get lost somewhere amidst all the talk to the point you couldn't take anyone seriously with it. He developed into a pretty good monster heel after years of mostly sucking, that's it. And now he feels overexposed to me. Maybe it's the idea of him and Big Show again but I'm not exactly hyped for another round of that.

I also think a lot of people have bandied together to really bastardise the meaning of the word "awesome" in recent years.

[Matt D]

I don't really have time to make the point I want, but I honestly don't think it's about Henry at all but instead about the broader style. Henry and Angle make for a great comparison.

 

You can look at things like how Dave gave Rusev vs Swagger 3 1/4 stars and Orton vs Reigns 4 stars for Summerslam.

 

Henry's really more of a symbol of being able to like a guy who works a slower, deliberate style, but that has great timing, knows when to jaw with the fans or the ref, and how much to give and when to give it, and how there's a huge cross-section of the online audience that would never give a guy like that a look.

 

I don't see how you can have the Henry argument without talking about workrate (though it's not like Henry's stuff doesn't look great and he's certainly not afraid to bump over the stairs and what not), since I don't think it's really about Henry at all. The things that Henry does well a lot of people simply don't value (and I still think that they're things that take more sophistication and thinking and deeper analysis to really understand and appreciate. They're not candy). That's what's being railed against more than anything else.

[BillThompson]

I wasn't around for the period when people started appreciating Henry. I left wrestling in 2003ish, and came back earlier this year. One of the first matches I watched was Henry versus Ambrose on Main Event. I loved Henry in that match, but I fully expected to be bashed for thinking as such, and was pleasantly surprised when I found out people had started to appreciate the work of Henry.

[jushin muta liger]

I've started to notice that it's really starting to be a taste thing with Dave these last couple of years. I enjoyed Lucha Underground but I fell asleep watching the Johnny Mundo vs Prince Puma match and I don't feel like going out of my way to watch that match again.

 

I'm not the biggest Mark Henry fan but he's a good wrestler and I thought his match with Angle at the Rumble years ago was fine. Watching the match with Big Show on Monday made me think Show wasn't on his game cause Mark was good.

 

This stuff just reminds me of an except of the Observer I found online about Dave talking about Becky Lynch in NXT being one of the best women they have and disregarding Sasha Banks and her gimmick. To me, Sasha Banks is the most ready for TV out of all of the women down there.

[BillThompson]

I like Lynch, but Banks is by far the best woman WWE has right now, character wise and skill wise.

 

As far as Dave goes, I like him in doses as a historian and a news source. As an analyst I find we're so far apart that I have very little use for what he has to say about matches, wrestlers, and events.

[pol]

I wouldn't have an issue with Dave's taste if he had any aptitude for explaining why he likes what he likes. I've never seen any indication that the guy has any self-awareness about his preferences or has ever second guessed his own initial judgement. When a person's critical vocabulary is as limited as his it makes me wish they'd abstain from criticism entirely - especially when they're in a position of influence. The fact that, in spite of his occasional assertions to the contrary, he doesn't seem to really believe that match quality is a subjective affair makes this even more irritating.

 

Dave is a fantastic journalist and analyst, but as a critic I find him pretty worthless - though interesting as a good indicator of where the mainstream hardcore fan mentality is at.

[jushin muta liger]

I like Lynch, but Banks is by far the best woman WWE has right now, character wise and skill wise.

 

As far as Dave goes, I like him in doses as a historian and a news source. As an analyst I find we're so far apart that I have very little use for what he has to say about matches, wrestlers, and events.

I'm starting to be in that same camp as you Bill. I can listen to Dave talk about the history of wrestling and MMA all day long but the matches he likes, I have to take him with a grain of salt. I was in step with Dave years ago when I subscribed to the newsletter but I've gotten older now and have to see things from all sides.

[El-P]

I always found the issue with the Henry thing to be people going overboard on it and completely overrating him as reactionary to people who steadfastly refused to accept anything but the common consensus that he sucked.

 

This. Around this place, Mark Henry is ridiculously overrated to me. Elsewhere, he's probably ridiculously underrated. And it's not like I waited for the insane Mark Henry trendish craze to enjoy the guy. Hell, I liked Mark Henry when he was a green-ass guy in the Nation back in the late 90's. Always liked good big men. But really, this match on Raw with Big Show was decent at best even if you enjoy plodding stuff.

 

I also think a lot of people have bandied together to really bastardise the meaning of the word "awesome" in recent years.

 

This too. Reminds me the same Mark Henry having a match with CM Punk a few years ago on TV and it had been called a MOTYC. It was like a ten minutes good TV match. Fun for what it was and well worked. And Henry was nothing special, but quite solid. But these days, *solid* seems like an insult. Everyting has to be *awesome* if you want to give any praise.

[goc]

I know everyone wants Mark to be as good as he was in the Hall of Pain run, but he isn't any more. He's had a really long list of injuries and time is catching up to him. He's still really good at projecting his character and his promos are still there but he's lost a step, if not more, since his big run in 2011. I also thought that CM Punk match was highly over rated, I guess because there were a lot of people who hadn't been watching Mark on Smackdown. It was good, but Mark had just been on a tear having matches just as good or better on Smackdown for months preceding that.

[NintendoLogic]

If you're going to highlight a match that demonstrates Dave's love of workrate, Orton/Reigns strikes me as a rather curious choice.

[Matt D]

It was more to show that there were things he valued more than the elements we lauded heavily in the Rusev match. I was all over the place in that post as I had to run to a meeting and I haven't felt up to fixing it because enough of the point is there and no one's really contested it or grabbed hold of it to the point of needing clarification.

[rovert]

I've started to notice that it's really starting to be a taste thing with Dave these last couple of years. I enjoyed Lucha Underground but I fell asleep watching the Johnny Mundo vs Prince Puma match and I don't feel like going out of my way to watch that match again.

 

I'm not the biggest Mark Henry fan but he's a good wrestler and I thought his match with Angle at the Rumble years ago was fine. Watching the match with Big Show on Monday made me think Show wasn't on his game cause Mark was good.

 

This stuff just reminds me of an except of the Observer I found online about Dave talking about Becky Lynch in NXT being one of the best women they have and disregarding Sasha Banks and her gimmick. To me, Sasha Banks is the most ready for TV out of all of the women down there.

 

In fairness it took forever for Dave to notice/acknowledge Becky. He only has done so in the past 4 weeks or so. But yeah even Becky will tell you Sasha is on another level to her. Pretty much starting at less than zero Becky has had a real long climb in developmental for a host of reasons to do with her own not so WWE-ised skill set to a bunch of other stuff with NXT staff and coaches. Her current position on TV seemingly has come from only recently finally winning over a few coaches and Demott. She's still got a ways to go. A character and promo delivery that makes you go "that's main roster" has been truly elusive for Becky. The parties involved have seemingly given up and decided to let her be Rebecca Knox more or less seemingly. While Sasha ticks every and all boxes.

 

I've my theories about Dave demphasising Sasha and emphasising Charlotte but it would come across as too "Dave's getting worked" if I fully explained. For all I know Dave just "forgot" about Sasha.

 

The Mark Henry/Big Show thing exists for a reason when you have people pretending their Raw match was any good or engaging you setting yourself up for derision I am sorry. How bad, feeble and sluggish does their matches have to be before people stop applying a cerebral "slow and deliberate" narrative to their matches? Their matches kill interest in their feud(s).

[pol]

Exactly what motivation does anyone have to pretend to have enjoyed a match? Please quit it with the bad faith bullshit, it's poisonous to actual discussion.

[BillThompson]

Exactly what motivation does anyone have to pretend to have enjoyed a match? Please quit it with the bad faith bullshit, it's poisonous to actual discussion.

 

I'll echo this sentiment. I'm not thinking people are pretending when they say they like a Davey Richards match. They like him, and I don't, and I'm okay with that. The people who are saying they liked Henry/Show from Raw liked that match, and you didn't. Assigning the label of pretender to their opinion of the match only does you a disservice.

[rovert]

Exactly what motivation does anyone have to pretend to have enjoyed a match? Please quit it with the bad faith bullshit, it's poisonous to actual discussion.

 

This has been done a million times before on here. I like when Henry and Show do good work but the Raw match is horrid. Saying otherwise is essentially saying they can't have a bad match ever. Again how terrible of a match do they need to have before the whole shoehorned cerebral and deliberate thing is dropped? If they were that smart of workers they would have found ways to not further kill off the crowd.