Dave Meltzer stuff

[khawk20]

Oh OK, thanks for the info.

 

So weird to think of a time when a star like Patterson could go back and forth between two major companies with no issue. But I guess this was while Vince Sr. was still overseeing the WWF?

 

It was more of a thing before 1984, yes. Ken Patera, for example, won the IC title in MSG and then two days later won the Missouri title, the "Steppingstone" to the NWA belt.

 

Also Ventura and Adonis were doing shots in the WWF while still in the AWA to set them up as challengers for Backlund. The pair was suspended from the AWA after a TV match in December of 1981. Adonis had his first MSG title shot on January 18th, barely a month later.

 

So it happened, sometimes as a segue into the wrestler's next stop, other times just an agreement to somewhat share the talent (like the Patera case).

 

...and I have no recollection of Bobby managing Pat at all in the AWA. Not to say it didn't happen when Pat made his shots here and there. I just don't remember it.

[hammerva]

Was I listening to the last Observer Radio correctly or did they say you can now gamble on Meltzer star ratings for the next PPV

[Seabs]

You've been able to do that for the past few in the UK. It's the most meta thing ever.

[Jmare007]

Was I listening to the last Observer Radio correctly or did they say you can now gamble on Meltzer star ratings for the next PPV

 

You've been able to do that for the past few in the UK. It's the most meta thing ever.

 

Holy shit

[Loss]

Good Lord. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[Al]

The early '80s were a weird time for interpromotional cooperation. That's when we got the Backlund/Flair matches, a lot of guys working each other's cards.

 

Good Lord. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Have you heard of the Wayne Shaw scandal?

 

https://www.google.com/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/02/22/sutton-united-goalkeeper-wayne-shaw-resigns-tears-pie-stunt/amp/

[Loss]

The human experience was a nice attempt at something, but has clearly failed.

[iamthedoctor]

Larry Csonka (who I know is hardly the most reliable source in the world) reported this today...

 

 

According to The Wrestling Observer Newsletter, the reason Baron Corbin lost his MITB briefcase and has been cooled off has nothing to do with John Cena or Corbin’s actions on Twitter, although his actions on Twitter didn’t win him fans with his co-workers; it’s considered bad form to go on a blocking spree of your fellow wrestlers. The WON reports that he has been cooled off due to, “an entirely different situation outside the ring that happened a few weeks ago.”

 

This means one of two things.

 

Either the WON did provide more details and Csonka isn't passing it on (possible) or more likely, Dave Meltzer is doing another one of his famous "I know the real reason something happened, and I'm going to tell you that I know, but I'm not going to actually report on the details of what I know" deals.

 

I HATE when he does that. He's done it several times over the past couple of years, and it drives me nuts. If you're a reporter, and you have a story, then report the damn story. If you can't report the story for whatever reason (don't want to give a source, can't confirm the story, whatever) then DON'T SAY ANYTHING.

 

The whole topic of Baron Corbin's suddenly aborted push and speculation regarding whether or not John Cena is the reason is a very hot story right now. To me, nonsense like this report is the equivalent of a little kid dancing around chanting "I've got a secret, na-na-na-nana."

 

I wouldn't have putten the MITB contract on Corbin in the first place, Nakamura obviously should have been given that win.

[C.S.]

I re-subbed to Observer for at least one month.

 

THREE obits in the latest issue: Bobby Heenan (with more to come next week), Otto Wanz, and Ruben Juarez (Northern Express in Mexico and “The Giant Killer” in the United States).

 

I think every WON reader knows how sad that is while also being something to look forward to from Meltzer. As odd/morbid as that sounds, obits are the best thing he writes.

 

That insane bit about betting on star ratings is also in the issue.

 

As weird/wacky as the stupid $10.99 price is, seeing "1 Hour and 49 minutes left in this book" on my Kindle is impressive - each issue really is the size of a small book. Even with all of the useless filler (MMA crap, show recaps that are already outdated by the time they're in the WON, etc.), there's still a ton of content.

 

BTW, any tips for sending issues of the Observer to a Kindle easily? I remember the "Send to Kindle" add-on not working in the past because of the paywall. Right now I just copy and paste the issue to a doc file and e-mail that to my Kindle. Crude but it works. Is there an easier way though?

[Bix]

I re-subbed to Observer for at least one month.

 

THREE obits in the latest issue: Bobby Heenan (with more to come next week), Otto Wanz, and Ruben Juarez (Northern Express in Mexico and The Giant Killer in the United States).

 

I think every WON reader knows how sad that is while also being something to look forward to from Meltzer. As odd/morbid as that sounds, obits are the best thing he writes.

 

That insane bit about betting on star ratings is also in the issue.

 

As weird/wacky as the stupid $10.99 price is, seeing "1 Hour and 49 minutes left in this book" on my Kindle is impressive - each issue really is the size of a small book. Even with all of the useless filler (MMA crap, show recaps that are already outdated by the time they're in the WON, etc.), there's still a ton of content.

 

BTW, any tips for sending issues of the Observer to a Kindle easily? I remember the "Send to Kindle" add-on not working in the past because of the paywall. Right now I just copy and paste the issue to a doc file and e-mail that to my Kindle. Crude but it works. Is there an easier way though?

The official Amazon "Send to Kindle" extension pretty much always works for me in Chrome.

[C.S.]

The official Amazon "Send to Kindle" extension pretty much always works for me in Chrome.

Thanks. Will try it with the next WON or F4W issue. I had problems with it before because of the paywall, but to be fair, that was years ago.

[iamthedoctor]

I re-subbed to Observer for at least one month.

 

THREE obits in the latest issue: Bobby Heenan (with more to come next week), Otto Wanz, and Ruben Juarez (Northern Express in Mexico and “The Giant Killer” in the United States).

 

I think every WON reader knows how sad that is while also being something to look forward to from Meltzer. As odd/morbid as that sounds, obits are the best thing he writes.

 

That insane bit about betting on star ratings is also in the issue.

 

As weird/wacky as the stupid $10.99 price is, seeing "1 Hour and 49 minutes left in this book" on my Kindle is impressive - each issue really is the size of a small book. Even with all of the useless filler (MMA crap, show recaps that are already outdated by the time they're in the WON, etc.), there's still a ton of content.

 

BTW, any tips for sending issues of the Observer to a Kindle easily? I remember the "Send to Kindle" add-on not working in the past because of the paywall. Right now I just copy and paste the issue to a doc file and e-mail that to my Kindle. Crude but it works. Is there an easier way though?

 

I think if I was going pay a subscription service where Meltzer gets my money Id prefer it to be video content similar to how WWE Network works of his Wrestling Tape collection!

[Jmare007]

Dave saying in the post-No Mercy show that the Miz isn't good in the ring and that most people are in denial because they don't watch other stuff was cringe worthy.

[SPS]

Dave saying in the post-No Mercy show that the Miz isn't good in the ring and that most people are in denial because they don't watch other stuff was cringe worthy.

I interpreted as him referring to the rough executions of Miz's fundamentals and overall ringwork which for a guy with that many years at a high level I agree with. To be fair that's not what Miz's strengths are since it's his personality and promo ability that's kept him in his spot but even NJPW young boys which is one of the easiest examples to watch are smoother workers and in ring mechanics in their first couple dozen matches than Miz.

 

I always was of the opinion that Miz would've made a better manager/occasional wrestler like a Heenan or Piper in his early WWF run than a full time worker and never should've been world champion or main event of 'Mania but since it's a different time he got the chances he did because he did have something worth utilising.

 

 

My Miz moment that exemplified this was the time where they built up his babyface turn and paired him with Flair after months of speculation by the backstage news following fans that thought it was gonna be Ziggler and then weeks of teasing on TV which led to the big moment of it being Miz.....and Miz fucks up the figure 4 leglock, a move that me and my 8 year old friends did back in the day watching TV. That embodied the Miz as a worker to me, he has everything else but no matter how much time you give him or years of experience he just doesn't have it in his in ring work.

 

But to be fair that's fair play to Miz because he isn't playing to the type of fans that Dave is speaking to when he talks about this so I don't understand what there is to cringe at?

[FMKK]

Dave saying in the post-No Mercy show that the Miz isn't good in the ring and that most people are in denial because they don't watch other stuff was cringe worthy.

 

I find Dave's wrestling takes, his twitter persona and his gatekeeping to be totally cringe worthy as a package these days.

[Sean Liska]

Nah its still cringeworthy. No one watches more wrestling than Dylan Hales and I saw him on Twitter talking about how great Miz is after his No Mercy match. Dave is getting feisty about differing opinions.

[sek69]

Miz has improved, but I think all the talk about him being great in the ring seems excessive. He's absolutely top tier in promos (which is what's more important in WWE anyway), but his wrestling to me has gone from awful to either decent or "perfectly acceptable professional wrestling" depending on who he's matched with.

 

Seems like a guy is either the shits or the GOAT with no room in between these days.

[FMKK]

Miz has improved, but I think all the talk about him being great in the ring seems excessive. He's absolutely top tier in promos (which is what's more important in WWE anyway), but his wrestling to me has gone from awful to either decent or "perfectly acceptable professional wrestling" depending on who he's matched with.

 

Seems like a guy is either the shits or the GOAT with no room in between these days.

 

My problem is that Meltzer is held up as the expert for wrestling and yet he seems to have no ability or desire to construct an argument to save his life. Anyone who doesn't agree with his opinions on wrestling is an idiot or hasn't watched enough or doesn't know about the business. It's like, he has the reputation he has so he's unquestionable and it's beneath him to engage honestly with any opinions contrary to his.

[Sean Liska]

 

Miz has improved, but I think all the talk about him being great in the ring seems excessive. He's absolutely top tier in promos (which is what's more important in WWE anyway), but his wrestling to me has gone from awful to either decent or "perfectly acceptable professional wrestling" depending on who he's matched with.

 

Seems like a guy is either the shits or the GOAT with no room in between these days.

 

My problem is that Meltzer is held up as the expert for wrestling and yet he seems to have no ability or desire to construct an argument to save his life. Anyone who doesn't agree with his opinions on wrestling is an idiot or hasn't watched enough or doesn't know about the business. It's like, he has the reputation he has so he's unquestionable and it's beneath him to engage honestly with any opinions contrary to his.

 

People on Twitter were asking why he considered Cornette and Hart to be better managers than Heenan in the mid-80s and his response was "I lived through that era". Personally, I think if Cornette were in charge of hyping Hogan matches that Dave didn't want to see, and Heenan was in charge of hyping Midnight Express classics, the viewpoint might be different.

[Coffey]

I've been watching wrestling thirty years. I don't need Dave Meltzer to validate my opinions on Twitter. People put too much stock into his opinion. The Miz is great.

[Victator]

As in ring work goes, I think Miz has gotten worse since 2010/2011. Once he lost the WWE title, it looked like he was drowning most of the decade until last year.

[Matt D]

I know sometimes it's frustrating to people who are sick of hearing about it but it keeps coming up for a reason. When people venture elsewhere, almost anywhere, they see it. It's a huge disconnect to so many of the conversations we've had here over a span of years and it's the majority, the wide majority, and furthermore, if you try to explain things to them, they think you have to be kidding.

 

One narrative of this place (and i joked that it was a WON watchdog group when I first really started posting here six or seven years ago) is that in the historiography of modern wrestling, execution of moves, bumping, and workrate in general have been overvalued to the detriment of character portrayal, selling, crowd manipulation, and a thousand little tricks. Basically "hard skills" instead of "soft skills."

 

It keeps coming back to the forefront because that value skewing shows up again and again elsewhere. It's ingrained to the point that it's impossible to ignore if you talk about wrestling anywhere else (and even if you watch a lot of wrestling in 2017) since it's become so metatextual on some ways. Between turnaround, the change to the WWE house style, and the rise of social media, it's probably going to get worse, not better, and we'll still be talking about it in 7 more years.

[El-P]

One narrative of this place (and i joked that it was a WON watchdog group when I first really started posting here six or seven years ago) is that in the historiography of modern wrestling, execution of moves, bumping, and workrate in general have been overvalued to the detriment of character portrayal, selling, crowd manipulation, and a thousand little tricks.

 

The only one that is overvalued is "workrate" as in "the more action the better". As far as the rest goes :

 

execution of moves : very important, if what you do looks like shit, it takes the whole thing down because, well, the very substance of what you're watching (two bodies taking actions on each others) simply doesn't look convincing/good. Most of the non-workraty guys that people love around here have great executions (how many time we hear about Lawler having those great punches and the best piledriver ?)

 

bumping : same thing, bumping is selling. If the bumps you take are shitty, you make your opponent's offense look shitty, and the whole match doesn't work as well (Lawler : great, great bumper)

 

selling : very important, for obvious reasons. Great selling demands great execution. You can save a poor executed move by great seling though, while you can make a greatly executed move look shitty by poor selling (see also : bumping)

 

character portrayal : overrated in this day and age, a product of Post-Benoit Workrate guilt aka "He plays his role right = he's great". Go tell Arn Anderson or Nick Bockwinkle that he was "playing a character". Plus, when your work in every other category is not very good, who cares about the "character" ? Way, way overrated (by the promotions too, since sadly, pro-wrestlers are thrown into these "characters" that aren't themselves today) Back in the days, I remember we used to talk more about body language and facials, which I guess you can throw into "execution/selling". Seems like a much better category to me (for instance to compare Amazing Kong and Nia Jaxx, and why one is a great monster while the other is not, while not throwing the lazy "She's playing her character well" argument)

 

crowd manipulation : this is the trickiest because of the wrestler's status and how he's presented by the promotion. At some point, some guys are so over and such superstars and they have such a captive audience they can do anything, it doesn't matter anymore. That's Austin, Rock etc... Making a crowd who doesn't care get into things, or turning around a crowd, that's the art, but in this day and age, with everything so micro-managed and pre-produced, I don't see how you can gauge that. As a crowd manipulator, Roman Reigns is a sub-zero I guess. Also, what about guys "manipulating" the crowds into getting insane by doing a thousand superkicks ? The whole "if the crowds loves it, it works" argument ? So, this one is way too tricky to really consider, because the weigh of the promotion (as in, how the talent is promoted by the company/booker) matters to much.

 

As far as Meltz goes, I have no idea why people care so much about other people's opinions, really.

 

(EDIT : the one thing that was the most ridiculous to me in the post PPV show was the idea that the main event would have been better if Braun would have kicked out of one of two F5. Because that's good work, kicking out of finishers and shit. It automatically makes a match better. Now, that was kinda cringe worthy indeed.)

[Matt D]

My point stands that here, at least we can have a conversation about it. It may not be a pleasant conversation, nor is it one anyone wants to see between the two of us right now, but we can have it.

[NintendoLogic]

How can something be overvalued if more people are willing to pay for it? I'm not thrilled with the modern emphasis on workrate by any means, but the market has spoken.