HHH taking over from Vince on RAW

[El-P]

That last segment reminded me of this:

 

 

Just awful.

Man, talk about a promo that goes off a cliff. Awesome bad stuff.

[Log]

"This is Phil Brooks talking to Paul Levesque!"

 

I hate this angle.

Ditto.

 

I can't tell who I'm supposed to root for here. HHH is a dick, but Punk is a whiny baby.

[Marty]

I was at RAW last night in Ottawa. That final segment just went on and on and on and on. Haven't seen what it looked on TV but even before reading the comments here, I don't have much hope.

 

Another note: Loss pointed out, I think in the other thread where we talked about this, that this angle's become too "insidey". That was even more validated last night. When Punk did his bit of "This isn't CM Punk talking to Triple H, this is Phil Brooks talking to Paul Levesque" you could hear a number of different people (and they were all adults) in the crowd asking each other "Who is Phil Brooks?" and "Who's this Paul Levesque?"

[Loss]

No one, including Punk's mother, refers to him as Phil Brooks ... except Punk himself, apparently.

[El-P]

Another note: Loss pointed out, I think in the other thread where we talked about this, that this angle's become too "insidey". That was even more validated last night. When Punk did his bit of "This isn't CM Punk talking to Triple H, this is Phil Brooks talking to Paul Levesque" you could hear a number of different people (and they were all adults) in the crowd asking each other "Who is Phil Brooks?" and "Who's this Paul Levesque?"

Disclaimer : I'm spending most of my time on this board talking about WCW 1989 and commenting on the yearbooks, I won't take any accusation of spending all my time bashing WWE.

 

Still, this sounds so like Bischoff/Russo circa 2000.

[Loss]

You see, most of wrestling is really, really fake. We do our best to make sure you remember that constantly when watching our show, because we're self conscious and don't want you to think that we aren't in on the joke. We don't take ourselves too seriously. But this? This is real. They started shooting with a mic on a live television show! They used real names! Clearly, WWE would not allow them to use real names on television, so this has to be real, right?

 

Yes ... very Vince Russo.

[Victator]

A few weeks ago I pondered if the people defending Punk, would put over a segment where Punk took a shit in the center of the ring. Last night put this theory to the test.

[Matt D]

i think we established months ago the lines that they shouldn't cross and how the angle was working because they weren't crossing them.

 

oops.

[Marty]

This angle has officially entered NXT Season 3 territory.

Disagree.

 

NXT Season 3 was more perversely entertaining. Goldust/Aksana getting married with Dusty and Cody there + Dusty's big kiss on Aksana + Aksana walking out > Phil and Paul's yammering.

 

Plus NXT Season 3 gave us odd stuff like Naomi wrestling in a Hamburger Helper Hand. Stuff like that at least drives a "WTF?!" out of you, as opposed to a "End this, please" like last night's segment did. And then there was Michael Cole's gong. Plus Punk's commentary that one episode (an excellent source of comparison right there).

[rovert]

CM Punk's slide into "Dick Flair" era Shane Douglas continues.

[jdw]

The one thing that's sad in wrestling compared to the rest of TV is that we won't get a Season set of these Raw shows with commentary tracks. We're missing out on seeing people from WWE Creative and the Performers explaining what they were thinking when putting together these show, and patting themselves on the back for the greatness of it.

 

You would just love to hear Phil and Paul and perhaps Steph chatting about how great this is and their whole thought process on it. And those earlier episodes where Phil and Vince were walking through the shoots. Pull back the curtain stuff.

 

Yeah, so very unlucky...

 

John

[NintendoLogic]

This angle has officially entered NXT Season 3 territory.

Disagree.

 

NXT Season 3 was more perversely entertaining. Goldust/Aksana getting married with Dusty and Cody there + Dusty's big kiss on Aksana + Aksana walking out > Phil and Paul's yammering.

 

Plus NXT Season 3 gave us odd stuff like Naomi wrestling in a Hamburger Helper Hand. Stuff like that at least drives a "WTF?!" out of you, as opposed to a "End this, please" like last night's segment did. And then there was Michael Cole's gong. Plus Punk's commentary that one episode (an excellent source of comparison right there).

 

I meant in the sense of the only real reason to watch is to see how hilariously bad it can become. For all of WWE Creative's faults, they've generally had the good sense to steer clear of "everything you're watching is fake, but this is real" nonsense. Now, all bets are off.

 

I also want to note that Ditch was right and I was wrong. The writers aren't mailing it in. You can't produce something this bad without a sustained effort.

[Hollinger.]

Weird. I didn't hate this nearly as much as everyone else seems to.

[Bix]

No one, including Punk's mother, refers to him as Phil Brooks ... except Punk himself, apparently.

I had a feeling that was coming.

 

I have a gut feeling/hope that the ending line was someone else's idea, because this whole angle has ended up in pretty much the opposite place from where it started.

 

I think it would've even been slightly better (not good, but better) if he referred to himself as "CM Punk" in that line if just to continue the "this is who I am/what you see is what you get" theme.

[kjh]

When Mick Foley says about recent developments in the Punk angle: "Aww man, we have to see how it all plays out, I'm going to try to resist my urge to be critical of storylines for a company I'll likely be working for again.", then I don't think Punk would be patting himself on the back for how the angle has turned out of late, but more frustrated with how he's been scripted.

[Kostka]

Punk went from being the hottest prospect in wrestling to an annoying message board smark, complete with no good counterpoints. A lot of what Punk has been saying lately (I.E. Land of the giants) aren't really valid talking points in 2011.

 

Also, you can tell when Punk is reciting generic WWE scripts and when he's ad-libbing and working off more of his own stuff. Last night felt like the former.

[jdw]

Way earlier in the thread, and not the only one to make this point. Mad Dog's quoted here is another good example.

 

I don't think this is inside baseball at all.

 

We also all know that the WWE is so lost in the punch of Owner/GM/Boss/Authority Figure(s) after 14 years that they have no other concept of how to write a TV show without those characters. Christ, even when they don't have a clear Authority Figure on Raw, it's such a core crutch of their philosophy that they create a phantom one with Cole as his/her/its mouthpiece. They literally know of no other way to write. It's like a coach who only knows the Wish Bone offense and wouldn't know a forward pass based offense if his life depended on it.

 

We also all know that WWE Creative is stacked with Lackies who are quite smart in understanding that a key part of retaining their jobs is stroking off The Family.

 

We all knew that Trip has long been so wildly egocentric in his place/role in the company that he was going to keep an on-air character even after "retiring" to the front office.

 

Ergo...

 

Trip was always going to move into an on-air Authority Figure role once he retired.

 

This was pretty predictable. Either Trip was going to get shipped off to anchor SD! as the Authority Figure, or... well, fuck it... we all know that Raw is the show they care about, and Trip's ego is too big *not* to evolve quickly into the Authority Figure on Raw.

 

Putting on the Casandra hat, I'd point out that Trip historically for the past decade has rarely been as over as he, the Family and the Lackies think he has been. He's also been weaker on the mic than they think, and generally been poor in getting *others* over.

 

For all we want to throw as Vince of being a gigantic egocentric bastard, we need to remember that:

 

* he sold/stooge/bitched the living fuck out of himself to get over Stone Cold

 

* for all the "hell" he put Mick's characters through back in the late 90s / early 00s, he again sold the shit out of Mick's wackiness to help get it over. Think Mr. Socko in the hospital, where even "angry" Mr. McMahon got over that Mick's comedy was funny as hell for WWF Fans.

 

* everyone forgets that Vince sold his ass off to lunch the major push that finally got Trip over: Vince --> Mick --> Rock and off went trip. Vince sold it by getting his ass kicked and having his own daughter turn on him.

 

* We could also go back and find a fair number of things where Mr. McMahon helped sell Rock as a top star.

 

While everyone probably would point to stuff like the Beer Truck and the Hospital Show as definative examples of Mr. McMahon stooging his ass off for Stone Cold, I'd point almost as equally to the Rumble / St. Valentine's Day Massacre run where Mr. McMahon "won" the Rumble in a pretty damn creative fashion only to set up Stone Cold kicking the shit out of him in the Cage including the Foley-esque bump of doom. Vince totally sold out for Austin for that run heading into Mania, while Foley was over in the also hot feud with Rock.

 

Does anyone see Trip being Vince-esque in getting over the talent?

 

That's going to be an issue in any long term authority role for Trip on camera.

 

John

I think you have to ask yourself one question about on-air Authority figure HHH and then you'll know if it will work or not.

 

A heel/face punks out Authority figure HHH on the opening of Raw. Think Austin with the beer truck. How does HHH respond:

 

1. He shows up with a neck brace next week to sell what happened to him.

 

2. He misses a few weeks of television to sell the attack, maybe does a vintage where he talks about it.

 

3. He comes out on the next episode of Raw, pummels them mercilessly then kick, WHAM, PEDIGREE.

 

4. Before that episode of Raw, KICK, WHAM, PEDIGREE.

 

5. This scenario would never happen because no one would dare mess with HHH because he's such a bad ass.

 

6. This scenario would never happen because HHH would outsmart them before they attacked him.

 

7. HHH fights them off and Pedigrees them.

 

8. HHH shows up next week, a little battered but okay and puts the face/heel in a match that is intentionally stacked against them.

 

If you answered with roughly 5 of those answers, it won't work.

 

The problem I see here is that if HHH is a face, you'll have a heel like Punk. HHH will get behind every face and stack the deck in their favor and the face will ultimately fail. Rinse, repeat until HHH has to come out of retirement and ultimately beat the heel. Similar way in reverse to the face. I have no faith that this won't happen. I can see everyone under him looking impotent until HHH saves the day. I have roughly a decade of television to back that theory up.

 

I think you have to ask yourself one question about on-air Authority figure HHH and then you'll know if it will work or not.

 

A heel/face punks out Authority figure HHH on the opening of Raw. Think Austin with the beer truck. How does HHH respond:

 

1. He shows up with a neck brace next week to sell what happened to him.

 

2. He misses a few weeks of television to sell the attack, maybe does a vintage where he talks about it.

Anyone see Trip doing this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgbQYAdtYUc

 

Then two weeks later, rather than the pedigree, stooges this far:

 

 

It's not just that Vince was willing to let Stone Cold kick the shit out of him in the hospital, or that he was willing to piss his own pants... it's _how_ Vince sells for all that. Look at Vince in that second one "crying" though all of Austin's build up to put over how scared he is. Even if Trip were willing to piss in his pants, does anyone think Trip is going to be able to pull off the acting to sell the whole thing?

 

That's always been Trip's weakness as a character: his acting sucks. He'll hit his lines, the might be okay lines... but his deliver lacks the wrestling fake "believablity" factor that connects with fans to sell stuff like Stone Cold, Rock, Foley and Mr. McMahon at their best. Trip's comedy, yelling and anger have always seemed forced.

 

So even if he's not hitting the Pedigee, he's just not going to be able to pull of the full ranges of the role.

 

John

Perhaps at some point Trip is going to bitch and stooge like Vince. I don't know if any of us have a lot of confidence that it's going to happen, or if it does that it will before for Punk. Trip is the master of doing the Meaningless Job where he quickly gets his heat back by usually leaving the person opposite him in an weaker position than before the feud started. :/

 

John

[Loss]

I have no problem with HHH not going as far as Vince to put guys over. Vince was never a wrestler, HHH was. HHH was also the top guy for many years and the centerpiece of the promotion. For him to suddenly be completely ineffective wouldn't make sense either. It's why having him so heavily involved in the top mix isn't a good idea to me -- no one will buy someone getting the best of him regularly.

 

If you look at Steve Austin's role as a non-wrestler in 2003-2004, he wasn't used to get anything or anyone over except Steve Austin. He was protected far too much for a guy whose best days were behind him. I had no problem with him stunning certain guys who they were never going to do anything with, but when it started happening to guys who were near the top, it was a turn-off.

 

If they couldn't book Austin to show ass and get other guys over in a non-wrestler role, there is no way they're going to do so for HHH. In addition to John's point that Vince is just a much better actor and overall performer than HHH, he was also in a better position to sell and make everyone else look great. HHH, even if he had all the good intentions in the world, just isn't going to pull that off.

[jdw]

The difference with Stone Cold is that he was an ass kicking face most of the time on top in the WWE, and in an Authority Figure role, he was always going to be a face of some degree of ass kicking. Not sure that you want an authority figure face like that to show ass.

 

With HHH, he's been a heel for the majority of his "successful" solo time on top in the WWE. A heel would be well positioned to show ass.

 

Problem?

 

Trip never really enjoyed showing sustained ass as a heel. He wasn't quite as openly anti-ass as Outsider/nWo Kevin Nash, but Trip did have his way of being non-assy and finding ways to come out stronger in the end. The reason the Triple H wrestler character was/is so "strong" and non ass / bitching / stooging is because the person playing Triple H doesn't want the character to be that way.

 

That same person who played the role of Triple H Wrestler is playing the role of Triple H Authority Figure. He knows of no other way to have a mic spot with Punk than he did last night. I'm not quite the tin foil hat guy to think that Triple H still, afte all these years, wants to bury Punk. Instead, I tend to think he knows of no other way to play it... and Creative knows of no other way to write for Trip (setting aside the impact of Creative wanting to kiss Trip's ass by making him look good).

 

Just go back and watch the contract signing. It wasn't exactly Grade A Mr. McMahon, but there was a fair amount of selling, bitching, a little stooging. At that point, Vince was/is the most powerful person in wrestling. He doesn't *have* to sell, bitch or stooge for Punk. But he did try to put over the storyline, and in a way it wasn't too bad for Punk.

 

Last night opposite Trip? I'm with the people who thought Punk looked whinney.

 

John

[Loss]

I think one of the most interesting HHH moments was in the build to the 2003 Royal Rumble match against Scott Steiner. There was an angle on Raw where he was trying to copy Flair by getting his suit torn apart, getting stripped down to his underwear, taking back body drop bumps, etc. The problem was that he was selling it like he was mildly annoyed instead of like Steiner had humiliated him.

 

What I thought was telling was that Lawler covered for him at the booth, saying HHH was trying really hard not to show it, but Steiner had embarrassed him. That had to be a fed line, but it's an interesting one.

[khawk20]

Raw did a 2.7 on Monday. Not unexpected against the return of MNF accordint to Herb (which makes sense, I guess), but still...ouch.

[Al]

Looking back a decade ago, Triple H was booked in an authority figure angle of his own. Sergeant Slaughter really did a fine job of coming off tough, standing up as the authority figure but still looking weak enough for the active wrestlers to appear a clear head above him. If that makes any sense.

[Strummer]

Slaughter was an underrated authority figure. He allowed DX to humiliate him while still maintaining a credible presence

 

and Steve Austin in 2003-2004 was dreadful. He's never been the same for me as a performer since

[Victator]

I think the way they did that was underrated. Because when Batista kicked his ass it really mattered. Also the segments with Kane building to the unmasking.

[smkelly]

Raw did a 2.7 on Monday. Not unexpected against the return of MNF accordint to Herb (which makes sense, I guess), but still...ouch.

I can already hear that the poor ratings is because of Punk, not HHH.

 

Looking back a decade ago, Triple H was booked in an authority figure angle of his own. Sergeant Slaughter really did a fine job of coming off tough, standing up as the authority figure but still looking weak enough for the active wrestlers to appear a clear head above him. If that makes any sense.

Not to make you feel old or nothin', but that angle with Slaughter was back in the late 90s, not 2001.