WWE Network... It's Here

[C.S.]

You raise a good point.

 

Of all people, I once heard Kevin Nash talk about a conversation that he had with Eric Bischoff regarding the art of booking. Nash claimed that Bischoff's theory (which Nash agreed with) is that there is really only about five different storylines which have ever been successful in the entire history of Pro Wrestling, and every successful angle since they were done first is just a variation on one of those themes. The trick is to do them right.

 

...

 

I guess we could now add "Authority figure abuses roster."

 

A great post! Although, I personally wouldn't add "authority figure abuses roster" because that has never truly been successful. Yes, of course Austin vs. McMahon was a smash hit, BUT that was one authority figure vs. one wrestler and could probably loosely fit in one of the other categories. While the Mr. McMahon character surely had other targets from time to time, it only worked because of the dynamic between him and Austin. It has not worked since, in any combination, and is now one of the stalest and laziest crutches around and has been run into the ground by every fed.

 

Edit: Evil "Easy E" Bischoff also worked, to a lesser extent, but the nWo would have been perfectly fine without it too.

[Flyin' Brian]

 

You raise a good point.

 

Of all people, I once heard Kevin Nash talk about a conversation that he had with Eric Bischoff regarding the art of booking. Nash claimed that Bischoff's theory (which Nash agreed with) is that there is really only about five different storylines which have ever been successful in the entire history of Pro Wrestling, and every successful angle since they were done first is just a variation on one of those themes. The trick is to do them right.

 

...

 

I guess we could now add "Authority figure abuses roster."

 

A great post! Although, I personally wouldn't add "authority figure abuses roster" because that has never truly been successful. Yes, of course Austin vs. McMahon was a smash hit, BUT that was one authority figure vs. one wrestler and could probably loosely fit in one of the other categories. While the Mr. McMahon character surely had other targets from time to time, it only worked because of the dynamic between him and Austin. It has not worked since, in any combination, and is now one of the stalest and laziest crutches around and has been run into the ground by every fed.

 

Edit: Evil "Easy E" Bischoff also worked, to a lesser extent, but the nWo would have been perfectly fine without it too.

 

 

The Authority vs Daniel Bryan I think only fits into that category too though.

[stro]

Vince vs Roman in one night got PHILLY to chant you deserve it for Roman. The Authority figure vs wrestler hasn't worked the same since Vince/Austin because....Vince is one of a kind. So was Austin, but it was more Vince. The follow up authority figures were Steph/HHH, Eric Bischoff, Stephanie McMahon, Paul Heyman, and eventually HHH/Steph again.

 

Vince vs Hogan and Vince vs HBK also worked, very, very well, arguably stealing the shows and build at both of their respective WMs.

[C.S.]

The Authority vs Daniel Bryan I think only fits into that category too though.

That's true too, but only because they were actually backed into a corner and had to push Bryan after Punk left. Otherwise, we'd remember it as Steph emasculating Bryan and Trips cutting him off at the knees at every turn.

 

 

Vince vs Roman in one night got PHILLY to chant you deserve it for Roman. The Authority figure vs wrestler hasn't worked the same since Vince/Austin because....Vince is one of a kind. So was Austin, but it was more Vince. The follow up authority figures were Steph/HHH, Eric Bischoff, Stephanie McMahon, Paul Heyman, and eventually HHH/Steph again.

 

Vince vs Hogan and Vince vs HBK also worked, very, very well, arguably stealing the shows and build at both of their respective WMs.

 

True, but I'm not sure that means "Authority Figure" deserves a separate category as one of the 5-6 successful basic wrestling storyline archetypes.

 

In all of those cases, it's still a 1 on 1 feud. Story-wise, what's the difference between Boss Man vs. Hogan and Vince vs. Hogan? One guy's playing a cop vs. Hogan and the other guy's playing an evil executive vs. Hogan.

[El-P]

Oh yeah, the legendary promo that rocketed Stone Cold to a pay per view rematch with Marc Mero stardom, that's what cemented him as an all timer.

 

When Russo started booking no one would have said that having Steve Austin and Rocky Maivia under your control in the WWF was an impossible situation to screw up. They became stars while he was booking. He booked segments and entire shows with the intention of making those guys look like stars. I am sure they could have become stars without him, but I am also sure that bad enough booking could have sunk them. Even with the oft mentioned filters he had there, it is not like Vince McMahon and company have a flawless record of separating good idea from bad ones. Like you said, the man has over fifteen years of failures to pick apart. Why rip him for the one brief period when he actually seemed to understand the wrestling landscape better than those around him?

 

Are we going to pretend the 3:16 promo isn't vital to Austin eventually becoming the biggest thing around ? Just because the WWF didn't picked on it immediately ?

 

To answer the bolded part : because he didn't. He didn't book alone during that period. Hell, like Charles said, Corny was around until as late as 1998, when the turnaround was already done and Austin was the hottest thing. Pritchard was also there. And of course, Vince himself. The filters aren't overstated. I'm not saying he didn't contribute, but Russo without filter got exposed immediately, and le's not go into "oh, but he couldn't do what he wanted in WCW" since it was the exact same shit in TNA. When you're a failure 95% of your whole career, when you can spot the patterns of his whole "creative spectrum" after going through his stints in details (and yeah, I've done that both for WCW and early TNA, the masochist that I am), it's easy to expose his way of thinking and writing. It's not like he's that creative to begin with (the word "creative" is so overrated anyway, especially in pro-wrestling).

 

There's probably something to be said about some of his ideas going through the Vince filter, working with Austin & Rock & Foley, simply being repeated everywhere else because the guy had no notion of why it worked before (context, worker). Which is another proof, if needed, he's a clueless idiot.

[El-P]

And more importantly than all of that, it was Cornette who kept Kane and Undertaker apart and developed the idea of Kane trying to get at Undertaker by destroying other people. Russo wanted Undertaker to come right back and drive Kane through a table or something like a week after Badd Blood.

 

See : Angle vs Joe, part 2. Their first match was a classic, basic build with them not touching, mostly put together by Mantell. It made TNA its biggest PPV number. The follow-up was classic Russo hotshotting and bullshit, which was the beginning of the end for Joe after a tremendous year and a half.

[iamthedoctor]

Table for 3 with Jim Cornette, Eric Bischoff, and Michael PS Hayes was the best episode of that show ever, by a country mile. It's just a shame that an obviously much longer conversation got cut down to 19 minutes.

 

I kinda wish Vince Russo would get back into WWE's good graces, at least as a "talking head," so he can appear on these sorts of things. I know there was new footage of him shot for the Monday Night War series and a couple of other things, but not much.

 

Cornette said on his podcast they filmed 90 mins worth of footage. Why cant they just air these things uncut?

[C.S.]

Cornette said on his podcast they filmed 90 mins worth of footage. Why cant they just air these things uncut?

Agreed. I'd even settle for 75 minutes to eliminate the inevitable Cornette profanity and anything that goes against the "WWE narrative."

 

19 minutes seems like a cruel joke.

[sek69]

Vince vs Roman in one night got PHILLY to chant you deserve it for Roman. The Authority figure vs wrestler hasn't worked the same since Vince/Austin because....Vince is one of a kind. So was Austin, but it was more Vince. The follow up authority figures were Steph/HHH, Eric Bischoff, Stephanie McMahon, Paul Heyman, and eventually HHH/Steph again.

 

Vince vs Hogan and Vince vs HBK also worked, very, very well, arguably stealing the shows and build at both of their respective WMs.

 

Mr. McMahon is probably the best heel character in wrestling history. Vince was willing to do whatever it took to get the babyface over, which is most of the reason why it doesn't work when anyone else tries to copy it. They get the asshole boss part down pat, but forget the part where you stooge all over the place to make the babyface strong. No one else does that part, due to the usual fragile wrestler ego syndrome, where Vince didn't have to worry about that since he owned the company and didn't care if he looked like a goofball.

[sek69]

Also we're set to get a mega dump of new collections on Monday, not the least of which being one dedicated to Bruno.

[El-P]

Mr. McMahon is probably the best heel character in wrestling history.

 

For a few months facing Austin. And then it jumped the shark quickly. Vince was awesome at the beginning of the Austin feud. By "It was me all along !", I was already dead tired of him. When he was still around a few years later facing Hulk Hogan on an equal footing, it was completely ridiculous.

[sek69]

Even at his most ridiculous, it was still better than anyone else who's done it since.

 

 

 

ETA: Him coming out and taking bumps and pratfalls for Roman at an advanced age did more to get him over in one night than years of him facing off against the unbeatable Authority.

[El-P]

Not hard to be better than Trip, Stephy or, gasp, Dixie. But it's a role that has totally hampered my enjoyment of US pro-wrestling. Blame Bischoff I guess (gotta give the devil its due, he did it before Vince and was quite good at it too).

 

Wait. The expection being of course DARIO MF CUETO, who's not even in the same league.

[sek69]

Not to be Well Actually Guy, but wasn't Vince doing proto Mr. McMahon in the USWA years before Eric?

[El-P]

No, because he was a guy from another promotion, not "evil boss".

[Matt D]

The one missing from the list is "Heel insults babyface's honor/family/injures family member/friend. Babyface gets revenge." Whether it's Macho and Flair with Liz or the Nightmares injuring Johnny Rich so Tommy comes in to get revenge or what or Sullivan and Dusty's "Sister."

[Johnny Sorrow]

Ron Funches is fucking awesome.

[cad]

 

Oh yeah, the legendary promo that rocketed Stone Cold to a pay per view rematch with Marc Mero stardom, that's what cemented him as an all timer.

 

When Russo started booking no one would have said that having Steve Austin and Rocky Maivia under your control in the WWF was an impossible situation to screw up. They became stars while he was booking. He booked segments and entire shows with the intention of making those guys look like stars. I am sure they could have become stars without him, but I am also sure that bad enough booking could have sunk them. Even with the oft mentioned filters he had there, it is not like Vince McMahon and company have a flawless record of separating good idea from bad ones. Like you said, the man has over fifteen years of failures to pick apart. Why rip him for the one brief period when he actually seemed to understand the wrestling landscape better than those around him?

 

Are we going to pretend the 3:16 promo isn't vital to Austin eventually becoming the biggest thing around ? Just because the WWF didn't picked on it immediately ?

 

To answer the bolded part : because he didn't. He didn't book alone during that period. Hell, like Charles said, Corny was around until as late as 1998, when the turnaround was already done and Austin was the hottest thing. Pritchard was also there. And of course, Vince himself. The filters aren't overstated. I'm not saying he didn't contribute, but Russo without filter got exposed immediately, and le's not go into "oh, but he couldn't do what he wanted in WCW" since it was the exact same shit in TNA. When you're a failure 95% of your whole career, when you can spot the patterns of his whole "creative spectrum" after going through his stints in details (and yeah, I've done that both for WCW and early TNA, the masochist that I am), it's easy to expose his way of thinking and writing. It's not like he's that creative to begin with (the word "creative" is so overrated anyway, especially in pro-wrestling).

 

There's probably something to be said about some of his ideas going through the Vince filter, working with Austin & Rock & Foley, simply being repeated everywhere else because the guy had no notion of why it worked before (context, worker). Which is another proof, if needed, he's a clueless idiot.

 

It was a great promo. It wasn't a ticket to automatic stardom. WWE history is littered with great promos that the company didn't capitalize on, or tried to and failed. No reason that Austin's couldn't have ended up on that list. Not that Russo was the only one who saw money in Austin (and I doubt he had anything to do with the decision to push Stone Cold Steve to begin with), but he wasn't given a guaranteed legend in the making, either.

 

I wouldn't want Russo booking a promotion alone, ever, but he was the guy who seemed to convince Vince McMahon that Raw was boring and needed a new direction. None of the others who had the boss's ear, all of whom had been around for a while before Russo, could do this. McMahon certainly didn't realize it on his own. These are the filters, the guys who were responsible for 1996 Raw, not some infallible wrestling minds. Obviously Russo was never again able to diagnose a problem and change a promotion for the better, so maybe it was just luck that his idea for a wrestling show lined up with what the WWF's fans wanted. That and the fact that the WWF didn't miss a beat when he left the company don't help his case.

 

I guess that just totally writing off Russo's SUCCESSFUL period as right place, right time feels like watching a good Ultimate Warrior match and giving 100% credit to the heel. Yeah, maybe he was totally carried, but it doesn't seem like there's much critical thought to that. It's easy and tidy to just say, "okay, it was a good match, but here's why Warrior is still useless." I don't have a high opinion of Russo's writing or booking abilities either but there was a time when his stuff was working, and I'd rather give him credit for that than find reasons that it doesn't count.

[Loss]

It's hard when wrestling doesn't really hold itself to any type of convention. Not that it should even. But it's hard to come up with universals like that. I mean, Wrestler wins match to earn title shot is how the vast majority of PPV main events have been set up in WWE for the last 10-15 years, but that's not a particularly engaging form of conflict, even if it is logical and generally effective. Most feuds have seemed to be about everyone fighting for their right to be properly canonized in WWE history. Being the longest reigning champion, being the first woman to headline something, having the first of a specific type of match, fighting to prove that one's success is deserved or one's lack of success is undeserved, etc.

[The Thread Killer]

The one missing from the list is "Heel insults babyface's honor/family/injures family member/friend. Babyface gets revenge." Whether it's Macho and Flair with Liz or the Nightmares injuring Johnny Rich so Tommy comes in to get revenge or what or Sullivan and Dusty's "Sister."

 

Excellent point, we need to add that to the list. Best example of that I ever saw was in Stampede Wrestling. Bad News Allen permanently crippled the son of Archie "The Stomper" Gouldie and put him out of wrestling forever. It was so convincing, the idiot play-by-play man Ed Whalen got up and walked out of the arena, and helped convince the athletic commission to ban the subsequent Allen/Gouldie blow-off match at the Calgary Pavilion and it almost got them thrown off TV for good.

 

Which is unfortunate because:

 

1) The kid never really got injured

2) The kid wasn't even really Archie Gouldie's kid...he was just some kid brought in by Bruce Hart for the angle and

3) It got a massive amount of heat and attention and would have drawn huge money for Stampede...if that moron Ed Whalen hadn't help ruin it.

 

They ended up having to do the blow-off on an Indian Reservation and run buses to the show, which a lot of fans wouldn't take.

[iamthedoctor]

 

Vince vs Roman in one night got PHILLY to chant you deserve it for Roman. The Authority figure vs wrestler hasn't worked the same since Vince/Austin because....Vince is one of a kind. So was Austin, but it was more Vince. The follow up authority figures were Steph/HHH, Eric Bischoff, Stephanie McMahon, Paul Heyman, and eventually HHH/Steph again.

 

Vince vs Hogan and Vince vs HBK also worked, very, very well, arguably stealing the shows and build at both of their respective WMs.

 

Mr. McMahon is probably the best heel character in wrestling history. Vince was willing to do whatever it took to get the babyface over, which is most of the reason why it doesn't work when anyone else tries to copy it. They get the asshole boss part down pat, but forget the part where you stooge all over the place to make the babyface strong. No one else does that part, due to the usual fragile wrestler ego syndrome, where Vince didn't have to worry about that since he owned the company and didn't care if he looked like a goofball.

 

 

While Vince did a great job at playing a heel I don't think he was as good as Piper was at inciting a crowd.

 

Im sure some historian on here could give a valid point as to why Piper was so great at playing a heel.

[flyonthewall2983]

The next episode of Table for 3 will debut Monday after Raw, and will feature Ric Flair, Bruno Sammartino and Bob Orton

I presume Ric and Bruno have buried the hatchet?

[Ricky Jackson]

 

 

The one missing from the list is "Heel insults babyface's honor/family/injures family member/friend. Babyface gets revenge." Whether it's Macho and Flair with Liz or the Nightmares injuring Johnny Rich so Tommy comes in to get revenge or what or Sullivan and Dusty's "Sister."

Excellent point, we need to add that to the list. Best example of that I ever saw was in Stampede Wrestling. Bad News Allen permanently crippled the son of Archie "The Stomper" Gouldie and put him out of wrestling forever. It was so convincing, the idiot play-by-play man Ed Whalen got up and walked out of the arena, and helped convince the athletic commission to ban the subsequent Allen/Gouldie blow-off match at the Calgary Pavilion and it almost got them thrown off TV for good.

 

Which is unfortunate because:

 

1) The kid never really got injured

2) The kid wasn't even really Archie Gouldie's kid...he was just some kid brought in by Bruce Hart for the angle and

3) It got a massive amount of heat and attention and would have drawn huge money for Stampede...if that moron Ed Whalen hadn't help ruin it.

 

They ended up having to do the blow-off on an Indian Reservation and run buses to the show, which a lot of fans wouldn't take.

Whalen was in on the angle. It was only later after all the bad press from the post-angle riot that he stepped away. As far as I know he had nothing to do with the promotion being kicked out of the Victoria Pavillion

[Loss]

Both are from the old school and are probably willing to just kayfabe it.

[The Thread Killer]

 

 

The one missing from the list is "Heel insults babyface's honor/family/injures family member/friend. Babyface gets revenge." Whether it's Macho and Flair with Liz or the Nightmares injuring Johnny Rich so Tommy comes in to get revenge or what or Sullivan and Dusty's "Sister."

Excellent point, we need to add that to the list. Best example of that I ever saw was in Stampede Wrestling. Bad News Allen permanently crippled the son of Archie "The Stomper" Gouldie and put him out of wrestling forever. It was so convincing, the idiot play-by-play man Ed Whalen got up and walked out of the arena, and helped convince the athletic commission to ban the subsequent Allen/Gouldie blow-off match at the Calgary Pavilion and it almost got them thrown off TV for good.

 

Which is unfortunate because:

 

1) The kid never really got injured

2) The kid wasn't even really Archie Gouldie's kid...he was just some kid brought in by Bruce Hart for the angle and

3) It got a massive amount of heat and attention and would have drawn huge money for Stampede...if that moron Ed Whalen hadn't help ruin it.

 

They ended up having to do the blow-off on an Indian Reservation and run buses to the show, which a lot of fans wouldn't take.

Whalen was in on the angle. It was only later after all the bad press from the post-angle riot that he stepped away. As far as I know he had nothing to do with the promotion being kicked out of the Victoria Pavillion

 

 

Whalen gave a bunch of interviews to the Calgary media after he quit, complaining about how violent wrestling had become, and that angle in particular. When the guy who is the supposed "voice" of your company goes public and buries it, people are going to listen. A lot of people in Calgary respected Whalen, since he also did play-by-play for the Flames.

 

I've heard that Whalen later told people he knew about it before hand, and that he quit Stampede because his wife was running for a town council position and didn't want the fact that he worked for Stampede to be used against her - so he quit and they worked it into the angle. The problem is, Bruce Hart reportedly told Heath McCoy that Whalen didn't know beforehand, and that he is lying now.

 

The thing is, Bruce Hart is also notoriously full of shit. When it comes to stuff about Stampede, I tend to believe Heath McCoy. In this case, I suppose a case can be made either way.

 

Anyhow, I guess my original point should have been that the angle was awesome, especially for it's time. And also, Ed Whalen was terrible. Not just for constantly burying his own company and no-selling angles during commentary, and stooging during interviews - he was also a horrible announcer. He publicly admitted he didn't even like wrestling or respect it. That's why I always go mental whenever his name comes up.

 

Of course, this time - I'm the one who brought it up.