Good Will Wrestling: Wrestling Fans

[bradhindsight]

Will is joined by Dylan Hales (Wrestling Culture) and Johnny P (Barbed Wire City) to discuss the evolution of the wrestling fan.While initially a part of the "Fixing the WWE" series, the discussion evolved into online fandom, how fans can affect your enjoyment of shows on TV and live events, and much more.

 

http://placetobenation.com/good-will-wrestling-wrestling-fans/

[Zoo Enthusiast]

Awesome. Have really been looking forward to this one.

[JerryvonKramer]

I got a little sneak preview of this and listened last night. It's fantastic! One of Will's best ever shows. Johnny P in particular is really switched on and up for it and the three of them make many excellent points.

 

Just a few notes:

 

1. Where were you bastards for this thread? Remember? When I was fighting back jdw and his hordes on how fans and their attitudes towards the product have changed? Remember? Making many of the same arguments you articulate here? Well? Thanks for nothing!!

 

2. The phenomenon you are talking about when you'd buy old tapes on expert recommendation and compel yourself to like them is known as the "sunk-cost fallacy" and is also a bit of confirmation bias. You are predisposed to like it because you've already made the investment.

 

3. Johnny P's point about fans not really watching for the enjoyment of the thing itself but always already to share their thoughts with their "friends across the world" was very well made -- and something I've often wondered about myself. Part of me absolutely hates it and hates the tendency of instant feedback in our culture.

 

Event X

 

1 second later

 

"Here's what I think"

 

"Well here's what I think"

 

"Here's my tweet on the subject, everyone must know what I think"

 

"And here's what I think"

 

I mean, honestly, I fucking hate it. But that's the way the world has gone. I found myself doing it massively during the world cup, as anyone who has the misfortune of being Facebook friends with me will know!

[BigBadMick]

Agree on point 3 there, Parv - on everything in life. Nothing's given time to settle.

[fakeplastictrees]

The 'conversation' aspect of this conversation was very interesting. Let me explain. WWE loves to tell its fans to use Twitter, Facebook, etc. to discuss Raw with other fans. The strong encouragement of conversation while things are happening vs. the encouragement of full digestion of the information before discussion, I feel is aiding in increased creation of the jaded fan. I think this might have changed me, slightly, as a wrestling fan even when viewing something outside of live WWE events that encourage interactment. This happened to me ealrier today when I was watching a SNME that featured The Mountie vs. Roddy Piper. The ending of the match had The Mountie dump a cup of water on Piper and shock Piper with the Shocker Stick (or whatever the gimmick name). Piper responds with a QUICK and absolute no sell and winds up winnin the match.

 

I switched tabs and was going to start a discussion about The Mountie's gimmick weapon and its effectivness, etc., but I decided to watch the rest of the segment.Come to find out, Piper had on 3 shirts and a SHOCK PROOF VEST. It all made it and made it even more awesome. I was in the mindset of 'talking while watching' that I wasn't even patient enough to allow the story to finish before discussion. In this case, because I saw EVERYTHING, there was nothing to talk about. I wonder what would happen if WWE killed all the hastag stuff and encourage people to 'not to touch that dial', etc.

[Jmare007]

This was fantastic. One of the best podcast I've heard in a while. Loved the current New Japan/90's All Japan talk.

[Bigelow34]

Love the talk about Saturday morning wrestling... I was the same way, always wanted to think it was live. I would ask my parents why all these people could skip church to go watch Challenge on a Sunday morning.

[Grimmas]

About half way through and I am enjoying this.

 

Since the Network came out, I started watching every WWE/WCW major show in order and I have finally caught up to Where the Big Boys Play. I'm not going to go ahead of them, so now I have more time to watch other things. What this show did was motivate me to rewatch 90's AJPW. I haven't seen it in years and not all of the major stuff, so this should be a fun re-evaluation.

[slackermillionaire]

Am so pumped for this! Just started working a shitty night job I hate, but it has become more than bearable with listening to old Goodwill wrestling episodes, Wrestling Culture, Pro-Wrestling Super Show and Steve Austin podcasts, so big thanks for all the output guys.

 

I actually think Wrestling fandom is an topic that I don't see a lot of coverage on, so cant wait to listen to this one tonight.

[goodhelmet]

1. Where were you bastards for this thread? Remember? When I was fighting back jdw and his hordes on how fans and their attitudes towards the product have changed? Remember? Making many of the same arguments you articulate here? Well? Thanks for nothing!!

 

 

The thread was partially responsible for several of the topics we discussed on the show. Johnny had already been talking to us about the idea of being wrestling fans. We just added some of the issues in the thread into the discussion.

 

2. The phenomenon you are talking about when you'd buy old tapes on expert recommendation and compel yourself to like them is known as the "sunk-cost fallacy" and is also a bit of confirmation bias. You are predisposed to like it because you've already made the investment.

 

 

I knew there had to be a name for it!!!

 

 

Thanks for all the great feedback. Always love having Johnny P on the air.

[Grimmas]

Am so pumped for this! Just started working a shitty night job I hate, but it has become more than bearable with listening to old Goodwill wrestling episodes, Wrestling Culture, Pro-Wrestling Super Show and Steve Austin podcasts, so big thanks for all the output guys.

 

I actually think Wrestling fandom is an topic that I don't see a lot of coverage on, so cant wait to listen to this one tonight.

There is a Super Show on that one with Will and Johnny that is in the archives. Should be on the PWO-PTBN Network within a few weeks.

[rovert]

Too many things to talk about in one episode. I hope there's more on the same area.

 

Things have changed so much in only the past year or so with the Television and the Internet merging. People used to make a big song and dance about "oh I could never watch Wrestling on my Computer" or "if it isn't on National TV I ain't watching". To the point we have gone past even hooking up a laptop to your Television via HDMI cable with advent of Google Chrome and other streaming devices. Let's not even talk about the WWE Network.

 

I have heat with Dylan for not putting over my dirtsheet crusade on Twitter.

 

Would recommend this in it's own right because it is really well made and Gargano is a quality dude:

 

But on the topic of this radio show I was amused by the 12 year boy in it mentioning Meltzer star ratings.

[WrestlingPower]

Great show & an endless topic really.

 

The whole idea of various sites/boards having "contrarian" opinions sprung out of the hardcore tape trading/sheet reading community. I think in the 90s it was fairly uniform the type of wrestlers the hardcores liked. I think as each generation of fan got removed from direct influences of the "taste testers" as you called them, more diversity of opinion formed. Even the taste testers evolved and were criticised. How many times have we heard complaints of the Meltzers, Scherers, whoever else moving toward only covering the most mainstream stuff and everything else got marginalized? Even as early as the late 90s you had to pretty much go to the internet to see coverage of Gaea, WAR, etc. on DVDVR because that stuff just didn't get ink in the Observer. The whole model that "dirt sheets" used to set up correspondents and make people part of their network of contacts was totally tapped into by the advent of the internet and the idea of community. People started watching stuff thinking their opinion mattered (or was fun to share anyway) to where everyone started thinking they were doing some civic duty watching everything so they could share their thoughts on it. All that landed us to where we are today.

[BigBadMick]

Great show & an endless topic really.

 

The whole idea of various sites/boards having "contrarian" opinions sprung out of the hardcore tape trading/sheet reading community. I think in the 90s it was fairly uniform the type of wrestlers the hardcores liked. I think as each generation of fan got removed from direct influences of the "taste testers" as you called them, more diversity of opinion formed. Even the taste testers evolved and were criticised. How many times have we heard complaints of the Meltzers, Scherers, whoever else moving toward only covering the most mainstream stuff and everything else got marginalized? Even as early as the late 90s you had to pretty much go to the internet to see coverage of Gaea, WAR, etc. on DVDVR because that stuff just didn't get ink in the Observer. The whole model that "dirt sheets" used to set up correspondents and make people part of their network of contacts was totally tapped into by the advent of the internet and the idea of community. People started watching stuff thinking their opinion mattered (or was fun to share anyway) to where everyone started thinking they were doing some civic duty watching everything so they could share their thoughts on it. All that landed us to where we are today.

That's interesting. Sometimes I wonder how much wrestling I'd watch if I didn't get to share thoughts and read the thoughts of others.

 

I'm sure that's true of most hobbies though.

[Johnny P]

Love ALL the feedback. Thanks guys, and thanks to Dylan and Will for doing the show with me (we were trying to schedule this all summer.) I do want to point out, since this happened on Facebook and now here, that Johnny Sorrow and I are two seperate people. I love Sorrow, and we've actually done a few podcasts together on a panel (my favorite is the History of Philly wrestling we did with Will and special guest Blue Meanie, and its in the PTBN archives). So just to put it to rest, Sorrow has the cooler voice, but I'm the guy who made the documentary. haha

[Loss]

I can't wait to listen to this. I've been putting it off so I don't give the usual divided attention to it that I do to podcasts.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Love ALL the feedback. Thanks guys, and thanks to Dylan and Will for doing the show with me (we were trying to schedule this all summer.) I do want to point out, since this happened on Facebook and now here, that Johnny Sorrow and I are two seperate people. I love Sorrow, and we've actually done a few podcasts together on a panel (my favorite is the History of Philly wrestling we did with Will and special guest Blue Meanie, and its in the PTBN archives). So just to put it to rest, Sorrow has the cooler voice, but I'm the guy who made the documentary. haha

So basically, we should split the difference and I should narrate your next documentary.

[Matt D]

 

So basically, we should split the difference and I should narrate your next documentary.

 

 

Only if it's on the Duke of Dorchester.

[DR Ackermann]

Kind of beside the point, but what is the deal with Murdoch and the KKK? I thought his KKK affiliation was a myth? Dusty Rhodes himself has said that Murdoch had nothing to do with the Klan and that he wasn't a racist. I figured he would know, but a part of me felt like maybe he was just whitewashing the truth to justify his friendship and praise of Murdoch.

[goodhelmet]

Bad News Brown said he was a racist.

[funkdoc]

the murdoch thing has been stated by a number of folks. tito santana was one and he definitely doesn't strike me as the usual delusional carny type.

 

the most common refrain i've heard was "he wasn't really THAT racist for the time, he just believed the races shouldn't mix", to give you an idea

 

EDIT: i've also suspected that this is a reason meltzer always tends to be so down on the guy whenever he gets brought up. no idea if that's true though!

[ohtani's jacket]

This was an enjoyable listen with the time really flying by.

 

A couple of points:

 

1) Surely, you didn't know anything about what was going on in the 80s outside of the Apter mags because you were too young to subscribe to the Observer or to be aware of the dirt sheets.

 

2) Wasn't Shawn calling himself the Showstopper and Mr. Wrestlemania prior to his first retirement? Shawn was always divisive, but he was considered a GOAT candidate amongst North American wrestlers prior to his comeback if for no other reason that he was a candidate for best wrestler of the 90s.

 

3) Modern NJPW is overrated, but so is modern WWE and CMLL. It seems to me there's an inconsistency going on here.

[Mando]

I think a lot of modern stuff is overrated and the immediacy issue is a major factor. But years down the road a moderately pimped SmackDown! match from this past summer isn't going to be very relevant outside of its context as part of a bigger whole. That's why I think the Yearbook projects are a good idea similarly to the '80's sets because it's forcing the viewer to actively interact with the material and not just its reputation. We hear more about current WWE TV and its highs than the other 30+ years of their televised product because of its accessibility and as a result its importance/qualities get inflated vis-à-vis non-current stuff by the average fan.

Also different opinions hold different weight and that topic was sort of broached on the show (in regards to the original tape dealers' recommendations being a template for what's good). Will said if someone claimed NJPW '14 as the best wrestling ever he'd disregard their opinion outright. But if someone like Dylan, who's seen a lot of stuff likes a particular NJPW event, his opinion is weighted accordingly due to his background as someone who's watched a lot. As an Internet fan I think it's important to seek out stuff from people who's opinion you respect even if you don't necessarily agree with it. There's tons of people writing stale Raw recaps and live tweeting just like a few years ago there were a bunch of sites doing long, dry play-by-play write-ups on every ROH DVD. But I tend to seek out guys like Dylan's opinion, because even if I don't agree with it, and often times I might not, I've developed a respect for it because I appreciate his dedication as a fan. That's kind of "smart fan" minutiae but when there's so much at our disposal you have to be selective.

I like the point John was getting to toward the end about how now we'll talk about stuff like a wrestler's facial expressions, or promo ability, and we're less interested in narratives or ongoing stories. Personally I've tried to cut back on technical holdups and invest myself more in the overall picture. A decade ago when I was pouring over RF Video catalogues in Study Hall I'd watch wrestling and pick it apart, if a guy ran the ropes loose, or took poor-looking bumps, threw weak strikes, etc. to the point where who won and lost was of no consequence and I was caught up entirely in the performance aspect. While I still admire people who's performance choices are unique and catch my eye (like a Dean Ambrose) my interest has shifted toward enjoying wrestling overall and being less of a critic and more a fan. My curiosity is also piqued at talk of a possible show on the circuitous nature of fandom. And how the cycles have shorter shelf lives. There was an ECW period, an ROH period, a WWE revival, NJPW, but whereas ECW had maybe 4 years that were real hot, ROH 3, depending on who you asked WWE's resurgence was/is either under two years or still going, and from many New Japan's moment in the sun lasted less than a year (outside of the occasional well-received singular event). That's my ramblings post-listen but enjoyed the show and discussion.

[WrestlingPower]

I agree and I think that's what brought up the point about Meltzer using hyperbole & giving immediate reactions comparing modern stuff to "greatest of all time". Fans born in the 90s that may not have the context of living thru some stuff giving reactions like that is understandable. But Meltzer was plugged in since the early 80s on watching a wide breadth of stuff. Yes, accessibility now is such that he can see lots more whole shows & very quickly but to proclaim like 3 shows in the last 18 months as top 5 of all time kind of screams a lack of historical context & time-consuming comparisons even if people may agree with it.

 

I really enjoyed the early 90s AJ vs. current NJ talk & that could be a whole show on its own. I heard from lots of people in the 90s era that kind of got lost in trying to follow the AJ stuff saying how the Observer would proclaim something as 5*, must see, and then 2 months later there would be another one "that's even better". As hard and expensive as tapes were to come by then, people got lost in the hyperbole when trying to keep up. Lucily those performances have stood the test of time. I'm worried that even if individual matches from this era stand up over time, the hype that led to HOF inductions & claims of how hot business was without the #s to back it up, that historical context gets muddied, as Dylan alluded to.

[shoe]

I just got around to listening. I liked the talk about Meltzer 's influence. Now I just take his opinion as an opinion on a match that I might agree or disagree on. Though back when I 1st started rating matches I always placed Meltzer being right . I always wanted my star rating to be in the same ball park. Now I don't care at all. A lot of the time we are on totally different ends of the spectrum. A lot of this has to with age and experience. Good show guys.