funkdoc Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 MJH: the thing you seem to ignore in your arguments here is that many on this forum overlook execution issues with certain male wrestlers as well. tenryu & cena are the most obvious cases i can think of, and don't tell me they haven't done stuff that's looked worse than anything in these NXT women's matches. i think you can argue some people have a double standard, but not based on gender - it has always struck me as strange that HBK & tanahashi take so much more shit here for weak offense than the above two. i have my own hypothesis as to why but it would hugely derail this thread sooooooooooooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Create a new thread on it funkdoc. Would love to hear your hypothesis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 How awesome would it be at SummerSlam if they do a turn that they put the 4 women together as the new Horsewomen and they turn on everybody else? I think it would be better if it was the other way around. Their chemistry is undeniable and to really put over that they are the future you probably should have Tamina and Naomi turn on Sasha to begin with and eliminate her from the match only to have her come back in the end and help PCB win. Paige can be argued as part of the whole thing as she was one of the first good women wrestlers in NXT before getting called up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I want them to punish Sasha like HHH was punished in real life. I don't think they are gonna run another Hogpen match but you never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravJ1979 Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 For years people (read that as wrestling fans on a message board) have had a natural prejudice against women's wrestling. With one group calling fan's of the style "creepy", or something equivalent while others make up their minds about a women's match before it even happens, likely skipping it all together. Some hold both views. While I would admit that women's wrestling in the U.S. has been largely sub-par pre-2000, it had picked up steam and quality with SHIMMER, Shine, WSU, Femme Fatales, ChickFight, and various indy's. The few NXT shows I've seen, especially the Takeover specials have all had great women's matches. Almost all of them being light years better than any women's match on US Soil through at least 2004. Bayley v. Sasha Banks included. For comparison, I've yet to see a better women's match in the 90's US than Akira Hokuto v. Madusa in the latter's retirement match at Bash '97. Go back and watch that match. It cannot hold a candle to last nights match as well as a lot of NXT women's matches. I agree with MOTYC sentiment for Bayley/Sasha. If you don't, that is perfectly fine. However, I'd ask you to imagine that same match, move for move being performed by two of your favorite male counterparts and I highly doubt you wouldn't call it a MOTY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I want them to punish Sasha like HHH was punished in real life. Except they were doing what they were told, as opposed to going into business for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I know that. However, I want them to punish Sasha in "storyline" for doing what she was told in real life because it was the dumbest thing she could do at that moment. It's fucking stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I know that. However, I want them to punish Sasha in "storyline" for doing what she was told in real life because it was the dumbest thing she could do at that moment. It's fucking stupid. That is why Sasha's team should take her out before or early in the match. This girl was celebrating with two of their SS opponents. Who's to say she wouldn't have the killer instinct to beat them when time came to do it? They could nearly run an accelerated in timeline version of the Daniel Bryan thing where he debuted on the main roster as a heel, got fired and was discarded by his teammates only for him to return for the big tag match at Summerslam on the good guys' side. That would play into the big thing they have planned tomorrow which is the full implementation of their 4 Horsewomen idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I know that. However, I want them to punish Sasha in "storyline" for doing what she was told in real life because it was the dumbest thing she could do at that moment. It's fucking stupid. No. It wasn't. I explain why here along with my review of the show. But in short, I couldn't disagree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I like the idea of the 4 Horsewomen deal... but would they be faces or heels? Sasha works as the Boss because she is a natural heel. Anyone cheering her now is cheering her heel work. I don't want to see her as a face. However, what main roster women have a chance in hell of being cheered against these girls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I agree with MOTYC sentiment for Bayley/Sasha. If you don't, that is perfectly fine. However, I'd ask you to imagine that same match, move for move being performed by two of your favorite male counterparts and I highly doubt you wouldn't call it a MOTY. I hope people would feel the same way, but I'd be shocked. I think part of what people enjoy about the NXT women's matches is just how different it is. Yes, they're women, which is different from basically every match of consequence we're accustomed to domestically. Its also completely different from how women's matches have been presented for years, so what we get here feels incredibly fresh and unique. My point is its not solely because they're women and we've got a bunch of feminists here, but that it doesn't look at all like what we're used to seeing in good wrestling matches. You get a match like Lesnar-Reigns at Mania this year where there was legit and not insignificant blood -- this added immensely to the match because its been years since it was used that way. Back when blood was a regular thing it simply wouldn't add the same intensity and lock you in because you were seeing it regularly. Give us something we haven't seen that hasn't been desensitized, and if you present it decently it will get over. Variety is huge. Give us a solid 15 minute divas match on TV every week and pretty soon the standards will change to reflect that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I know that. However, I want them to punish Sasha in "storyline" for doing what she was told in real life because it was the dumbest thing she could do at that moment. It's fucking stupid. No. It wasn't. I explain why here along with my review of the show. But in short, I couldn't disagree more. I just read your review. I still don't see where Sasha hugging it out with her enemies is smart or part of any storyline that has actually been presented on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Charlotte and Sasha are natural heels and I think Becky could reasonably play one. Of course Paige could be the psychotic one. They don't have to be presented a real babyfaces. They can be heels doing heel stuff to the heel bitches like Tamina and Naomi or the Bellas or Alicia Fox or Summer or whoever else. Bayley doesn't need to be called up into the group yet. Have the Horsewomen establish their presence more and fully then see where they are by the time Bayley is ready to drop the title and join the group and adjust the necessary face/heel dynamic of the group if needed. Paige could be the odd one out especially if they book her to be unstable and too independent minded to co-exist with the others in the group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerva Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I know that. However, I want them to punish Sasha in "storyline" for doing what she was told in real life because it was the dumbest thing she could do at that moment. It's fucking stupid. No. It wasn't. I explain why here along with my review of the show. But in short, I couldn't disagree more. I just read your review. I still don't see where Sasha hugging it out with her enemies is smart or part of any storyline that has actually been presented on TV. It does if you consider NXT as it's own separate TV. As far as I know there wasn't one mention of the divas elimination match tonight. In the world of NXT, Team BAD doesn't exist except the Naomi and Tamina was in the stands. I assume it was mentioned that she was supporting Sasha but I don't know if it was ever said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 It's not smart but it's not stupid either. It's just nice. The storyline as presented on TV, above all else, is the Divas Revolution, which is something that has always nodded behind the curtain because it's about the girls wanting more time to wrestle from the office. This moment was a culmination of the Revolution in NXT. The three of them are "leaving the territory". It was a heartfelt sendoff for real people. WWE breaks kayfabe in this way when they want to. Guys break character to give retirement speeches, do anti-bullying campaigns, tributes, whatever. It's not unprecedented or really that unusual. I don't get the hang up, especially since it was such a heartfelt, deserved moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 People criticize HHH, Taker and HBK playing out thier soap opera backstage bullshit in front of the crowds. The Divas Revolution itself is a bad storyline that has been pretty horrible in execution on the main roster. What hasn't been horrible is Sasha as the Boss.. full blown heel. I want my heels to be heels and my faces to be stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I know that. However, I want them to punish Sasha in "storyline" for doing what she was told in real life because it was the dumbest thing she could do at that moment. It's fucking stupid. No. It wasn't. I explain why here along with my review of the show. But in short, I couldn't disagree more. I just read your review. I still don't see where Sasha hugging it out with her enemies is smart or part of any storyline that has actually been presented on TV. It does if you consider NXT as it's own separate TV. As far as I know there wasn't one mention of the divas elimination match tonight. In the world of NXT, Team BAD doesn't exist except the Naomi and Tamina was in the stands. I assume it was mentioned that she was supporting Sasha but I don't know if it was ever said If that is true they have been pretty inconsistent about it. I have seen instances where people go up or down and carried elements of their storylines to the other show. I don't think, for example, that they would have had Zayn wrestle Cena the week after (or was it before?) Owens did his angle with Cena if it wasn't Zayn that Owens took the belt from. I've seen Rusev come down to NXT and play up the stuff he was doing on WWE tv to some effect. Then again, it is true that some guys gets called up from NXT and the main roster announcers acted like they never have seen the guy befpre. So yeah, very inconsistent. Plus how many people went to Takeover and are planning to go to Summerslam as well? Probably quite a bunch. It would be awkward for them to see Sasha do that and then be expected to react to her the next day as her Raw persona beating on some of the girls they just saw her hug the night before. It is just yet another glaring example of the philosophical shift in booking from sports oriented contests to performance pieces by artists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 The difference between Owens being so single minded and Sasha doing the curtain call was striking to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Yes! I made that point last night on the Reaction Show. Kevin Owens is awesome as a heel because he is a heel every second he is in front of a camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I haven't had the chance to listen yet but I'm pretty much with you on this. It's almost never worth it just outright say "this is fake." I like the idea of just putting it on YouTube if they felt they had to do it in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Yes! I made that point last night on the Reaction Show. Kevin Owens is awesome as a heel because he is a heel every second he is in front of a camera. What about when he ran over to ringside during his intro to hug somebody? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmmnx Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I don't love or hate the curtain call, but those girls earned the right to take a bow for building that division up and stealing the show for the past 4 or 5 Takeovers on their way out. Maybe they could have done it off camera, but that was HHH's call. Sasha isn't going to get booed against the Bellas regardless even the fans in Minnesota were cheering Sasha over Nikki. This was pro wrestling 101 a great heel a great baby face in front of a red hot crowd with a tremendous build and they tore the house down with a great match giving the babyface her long anticipated title win. I don't see how someone who calls themselves wrestling fan couldn't enjoy this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerva Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Yes! I made that point last night on the Reaction Show. Kevin Owens is awesome as a heel because he is a heel every second he is in front of a camera. What about when he ran over to ringside during his intro to hug somebody? Wasn't that his wife? I mean you have to go Doctor D David Schultz in order to show hate to your own family Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 It was for show, a smokescreen to fool people into thinking he does it for his family, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 My thoughts: - Liger/Breeze was a solid opener. Not a classic, but fun. The only thing I didn't like is they kept teasing a top rope spot for Liger but never actually delivered. The way the match was structured, I thought for sure Liger would win with a move off the top rope. - I am not a big fan of Blake and Murphy, but it is cool to see how much polished their act has become between their initial title win and now. Alexa Bliss really added the missing piece of the puzzle for them. With that said, I'm happy the Vaudevillans won. Cool gimmick and solid team. - I thought Joe vs. Corbin was surprisingly very good for what it was. It's probably Corbin's best match to date, and it's certainly the best Joe has looked in a while. - Apollo Crews surprised the hell out of me. Despite the internet hype (which means less than zero to me), I really was expecting a musclebound stiff like Lashley or Big Zeke. Instead, Crews was exciting, dynamic, high-flying, a great athlete. He won me over immediately. And he's only 20 years old (this show was his 20th birthday, actually), so it's scary how good he can become. Big kudos to Tye Dillinger too. I really like the new look and what little we got to see of the "Perfect 10" gimmick. I hope he goes places with it. - Sasha vs. Bayley was great, and the "curtain call" after the match was incredible. - I'm getting kind of sick of ladder matches, and I'm already sick of Balor's entrance, which made Owens' reaction to it priceless. I eventually got into the match itself, and it turned out to be a pretty good one. The bump near the end with Owens' head banging off the ladder looked NASTY. I'm surprised he got up so quickly from that, barely selling it, but I understand why because the show had aleady gone into overtime. - Anyone see this disgusting story? Wrestling fans are sewer-dwelling dung. http://wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2015/0823/599794/samoa-joe-sends-message-to-wwe-nxt-roster/ - A fan in attendance for Takeover sent word that Kevin Owens' son was at ringside and was seen crying in the front row. Some fans were apparently taking photos of the kid crying. WWE referees reportedly tried consoling the child while Owens was laying flat on his back outside of the ring. New NXT Women's Champion Bayley and Bull Dempsey also had their families at Takeover. - I liked Owens vs. Balor, but the women should have main evented. The "curtain call" and "4 Horsewomen" stuff would've been the perfect way to end the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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