Reactions to the Honorable Mention List, Part 2

[TravJ1979]

How far are we getting up to today? Just curious. Once it gets to #150, it's going to be that much more fun.

[TheU_2001]

There goes Daniels off my list too.

[concrete1992]

#150

When it starts to count

Friendships will forever end

Wrestling is a farce

[Eegah]

I voted CIMA also, I always thought he was a good performer that stood out amongst his peers.

[cad]

I can't imagine a wrestling fan who would agree with all the placements.

What exactly were you expecting to happen? The top 100's gonna be like that too, with Lawler, Tanahashi and I'm guessing at least one of Undertaker/Hogan. Either you sort it out beforehand so that the only people voting are those with similar opinions, or you end up with a final list that's all over the place.

 

I sort of wish I'd nominated a bunch of random, hopeless Mexican guys just for the joy of seeing them pop up randomly, but lucha placements have been so predictable thus far that there wouldn't have been a point, they'd probably just have plopped out at the bottom. Jerry Estrada went a bit low, Octagon a bit high, but even that was just one vote. Maybe Negro Navarro finishing above Solar, just because Solar has better stuff from before he broke off stylistically. Mocho Cota's going to do well for himself but it was clear going in that would happen.

[goc]

 

I can't imagine a wrestling fan who would agree with all the placements.

What exactly were you expecting to happen? The top 100's gonna be like that too, with Lawler, Tanahashi and I'm guessing at least one of Undertaker/Hogan. Either you sort it out beforehand so that the only people voting are those with similar opinions, or you end up with a final list that's all over the place.

 

If the top 100 didn't have Lawler then it would be a pretty shitty top 100.

[ohtani's jacket]

Rocco and Kyoko from their peak years ('76-79 and '92-94) don't deserve to drop that far, but I guess there is a lot of dreck that comes with them. Still, I'd sooner watch a Kyoko or Rocco match than the majority of the workers who'll follow. Asuka and Samurai fall into my "don't care" basket. I probably would have voted for O'Connor and Nishimura. Haven't watched a lot of the Fantastics and what I have seen was years ago.

[Matt D]

If I went just a little higher on Condrey or if Stacey went just a little lower on Orton they would have been flipped.

[Loss]

Why do the voices in his head talk to Mae?

[goc]

Would love to hear an explanation of ranking Ray Stevens at #12 that isn't just based on reputation among old wrestlers. None of the footage I've seen on him is all that impressive. At least for guys like Gorgeous George or Buddy Rogers you can actually look at footage and see why so many people called them great.

[Matt D]

Very curious about Stevens at 100 even.

[Grimmas]

When we get to 150. Some will be happy with the pick, but a lot will be angry they didn't make the top 100. There is no dream number.

 

Reactions I am waiting for are for picks: 112, 120, 124, 144, 148, 162, and 182. Of folks outside the top 100 those reactions should all be fun to see.

[Beast]

Stevens' ranking is indicative of why this can never be THE list.

 

197 is way too low for the guy who every peer says was amazing.

 

But most of us couldn't vote for him due to the lack of prime footage.

 

It's a real shame.

[JRGoldman]

Nigel getting a #4 vote is preposterous. He was never even the best worker in his own company, even in his peak years. Unless shittylittleboots has Danielson #1, Hero #2, Low Ki #3 or something.

 

I would say Ian Rotten was largely better than Nigel during the "Indie Golden Age" that people are voting on.

[Luchaundead]

Would love to hear an explanation of ranking Ray Stevens at #12 that isn't just based on reputation among old wrestlers. None of the footage I've seen on him is all that impressive. At least for guys like Gorgeous George or Buddy Rogers you can actually look at footage and see why so many people called them great.

 

The only extra clarity I could give for this question is my own anecdotal case that I am actually a 3rd generation wrestling fan so with the footage I've seen, his reputation from wrestlers, and from family members who saw him live with opinions that I actually trust and respect I got him to #23. Now #12 that's a story I don't know.

[Matt D]

There's no evidence in his non prime footage really. If he was just an athletic spot monkey(60s version) someone might Flair might still love him in the way others love Angle.

[Luchaundead]

Nigel getting a #4 vote is preposterous. He was never even the best worker in his own company, even in his peak years. Unless shittylittleboots has Danielson #1, Hero #2, Low Ki #3 or something.

 

I would say Ian Rotten was largely better than Nigel during the "Indie Golden Age" that people are voting on.

While I don't disagree right your point I will just say that there was a brief time where you could argue that Nigel was the best worker in TNA

[Grimmas]

There's no evidence in his non prime footage really. If he was just an athletic spot monkey(60s version) someone might Flair might still love him in the way others love Angle.

I'm leaning towards Stevens being really shitty like Angle, actually.

[JRGoldman]

It's also pretty clear that things wrestlers value in performance are by and large not the things we value as fans and observers. Like, most wrestlers seem to like Stevens because he was able to work for long periods despite getting hammered the night previous. I would imagine that was not the secret seventh category for BIGLAV.

[Loss]

Is it possible Stevens was one of the first big bumping, fast moving guys, and that's what made him so adored, since no one else was doing that at the time? Based on the way people describe him, he always sounded like the inspiration for the faster-paced style of the next generation of guys (which of course later became even faster). I picture him more as the Shawn Michaels of his era based on descriptions since the exaggerated bumping and movement is usually described as his calling card.

[Eegah]

At least Randy will finish lower than his father so there is that.

[Matt D]

Is it possible Stevens was one of the first big bumping, fast moving guys, and that's what made him so adored, since no one else was doing that at the time? Based on the way people describe him, he always sounded like the inspiration for the faster-paced style of the next generation of guys (which of course later became even faster). I picture him more as the Shawn Michaels of his era based on descriptions since the exaggerated bumping and movement is usually described as his calling card.

 

We might have loved him for an ability to be really, really irritating and draw heat while being showy, but there's not really any evidence of that in his work. You can't even see the hints (and sometimes, far more hints) that you do in a guy that's obviously past his prime like Mick McManus.

 

Actually, here's a good question. Is there any wrestler that anyone put in their top 50 but that we have footage of as an older man that doesn't at least show more signs of greatness than what we can see from Stevens (including Flair, who despite my critiques, still DOES).

[GOTNW]

 

he thing of it is that he's been the Ace of what is the second biggest wrestling company in Japan for nearly a decade

I remember Ditch saying Dragon Gate wasn't taken seriously by the media and a lot of fans because it only focused on juniors and such. And no way were they the second biggest wrestling company in Japan for "nearly a decade".They became a clear number two only when everyone else completely collapsed, and even that didn't happen until what........2013? And even then I remember some arguments in DDT's favour. Things become even more sketchy when you factor in that in the world of faking attendance numbers they were the ones that went furthest with it, claiming they drew 3K in Korauken and what not. So basically what you're looking at is CIMA being the ace of a promotion that has arguably been #2 in Japan for a few years when wrestling in Japan is at it's historical low point.

[joeg]

I had Stevens at #39. I've seen less than 10 of his matches but in those few matches you can tell he's special.

[Luchaundead]

Point was more that he's been ace for a decade in a high profile company so his popularity really shouldn't be shocking. To be clear I was not trying to claim Dragon Gate has been#2 for a decade my wording was unclear I see that now. I have also heard Dragon Gate draws way better outside of Tokyo than DDT and they have always had a much larger presence in other countries